88IntegraLS

This same thing happened to my housings, using RA seals. It's happened to other users of the seals too.

I'll be using stock Mazda 2mm seals from now on.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Hm, note to self: Avoid RA seals. I was going to use them in my next engine.

I think I'll stick with Atkins...

wpgrexx

yeah I see those score marks on RA seals too. I would like to see them after a failure due to wear not tuning.

Net Seven

iTrader: (5)

Sure but what difference would that make? I never broke the seals. Detonation and running lean DOES NOT cause marks on your housings. Detonation makes thing BREAK not put big *** wear marks all the way across the housing like on my housings.

jhammons01

Netseven, are you going to reuse those housings??? I think there are too many scores in them.

Bukwild

Sevendreamz I hope the rebuild goes well and now that you are a advocate of doing a rebuild on a jspec. Did you tear down the motor yet and see if the rear housing was still usable? After the breakin is a great time to get a full ems system.

vintagespeed

Do you know what detonation is? I'll save you some searching: It's pre-ignition of your fuel mixture due to a "hot spot" that lights off the mixture before the spark plug can do it. The "hot spot" is the edges of your apex seal in this case. Like I said earlier, running lean causes those EGTs to go way up on an already hot rotary, the edges of your apex seal started forming a "hot spot" (you know, like a welding arc?) then as your detonation began it began chipping the molten tips of your apex seal off. All that metal circulating in the rotor housing and a serrated apex seal are what caused your score marks.

Tuning issue.

-jb

Dave777

I was just on the phone with atkins ordering some parts and asked them about the hardness of their current apex seals. Sometime in the last year or so they started making their apex seals harder, and they are now almost as hard as Mazda seals. Just slightly softer.

He rattled off some hardness numbers that were something like 54-55 for Mazda, and the Atkins were now 52-54. I don't know what method that is (rockwell etc) but put the numbers down to show how close they are. I also asked for the hardness numbers of their old seals but he didn't remember.

RA claims their seals are 85% harder than "current aftermarket competitors (Atkins and Hurley)". Is that really a good idea?

Anyway just throwing some more info out there for people to consider when deciding on seals. I tend to think that customers engines shouldn't be the test bed for new apex seals.

88IntegraLS

My NA, which runs nice and rich under throttle and never detonated, had those same scores on its housings after using RA seals, and the seals were NOT "serrated" or deformed in any way.

Net Seven

iTrader: (5)

Yes I know what detonation is. Question is do you even know how to build engines?? I think I would have told everyone if my apex seals are chipped in any way, which they were not. I only drove the car with the turbo for 1 month, which is the only time detonation happend. I dont see it doing all that in 1 month of driving. Again ill say it MY SEALS WERE NOT CHIPPED. Got that? Thanks for telling me what happend to my engine when you havent even seen anything but the rotor housings. If you dont know what your talking about dont respond please, noob.

astrochild7

iTrader: (3)

yea I can vouch for 88integrals his housings are pretty scored.... runs rich on the prmix.... the apexs were still in pretty good shape.... makes ya wonder.... I've got a motor that I rebuilt s5 na got about 6000 on it... good vac excell compression... side seals are allowing a liitle too much blow by thou (clearenced tight/broke in loose) gassy oil runn prolly (80:1) amsoil... rapped daily... will soon be peeking in the exhaust ports... or replaceing the side seals... if it gets worse.... I wonder how bad my housings are.... They were perfect housings.....almost new... I really wish the "NRS" seals were more reasonable... and I'd never go back... **** they'd prolly make more... in the long run..

wpgrexx

what are you talking about, I just said I have seen the exact same marks on a motor with 10kms. I meant I was curious to see what new housings look like after RA seals and say 60 000kms. Do those scores lead to bigger problems. I have inspected the housings and the seals, no chips or anything on the seals, the housings still feel as if there are no scores at all.
I am in agreeance with you, if thats how u spell it. The motor I am talking about has the same marks, apex seals are great, never detonated.

scathcart

Apparently you don't know what detonation is.
Detonation is not the same thing as preignition.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

diesel=detonation

jhammons01

Net Seven, your not going to use those housings again are you??

SevenDreamz

I have not tore the motor down yet. Its almost ready to pull out. My Rotary Aviation video came in today with Bruce on it and I watched that video and was really impressed. The video breaks everything down and I just pray my rear housing is usable. I know the rear rotor may be gone but just mybe I cn use the rear housing. we'll see how it goes. But thanks for asking Bukwild. I am anxious to rebuild and I will take my time. I see that its not hard at all just take your time and make sure your clearances and tolerances are correct.
Mike

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

those pics still lead me to believe the engine was run lean for an extended period, audible detonation is horrible while under boost but it can still hold together. inaudible detonation can be going on without you knowing it is going on, running lean wreaks havoc on internal parts especially in a premix setup.


the scarring looks as though the apex seal could not cool properly(the seals cools by it's contact with the rotor and contact with the rotor housing face) or was running a hot mixture.

vintagespeed

LOL. I've most likely been building engines since before you were born. I could be wrong about the failure but that's what it looks like.

Got any pics of the apex seals? I'm sure we'd all be interested to see them, show us all the evidence, that way we wont have to fill in the blanks.

You're right, I used the wrong term.

"The secondary ignition of the air/fuel mixture in the combustion space causing extreme pressures. Detonation is caused by low gasoline octane ratings, high combustion temperatures, improper combustion chamber shape, too-lean mixtures, etc. Detonation produces dangerously high loads on the engine, and if allowed to continue, will lead to engine failure. Detonation, unlike preignition, requires two simultaneous combustion fronts (fuel burning in two or more places in the combustion chamber at once); whereas preignition occurs when the fuel-air mix ignites (with single burning front) before the spark plug fires. Both preignition and detonation produce an audible "knock" or "ping," but detonation does not produce the rapid "wild pinging" noise that is typically associated with preignition. The extreme pressures of detonation can lead to preignition, but even worse the high temperatures of preignition can cause detonation."

Net Seven

iTrader: (5)

Cant cuz I already sent them off to RA, they wanted them to examine just for their research. In return they are sending me brand new seals and springs.

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

has anyone used the mazdaracing seals with used housings? i'm about to start a rebuild and i'm totally lost as to which seals to go with...

i want to use the stock mazda seals, but where do i buy them? (the newer 2piece ones) and how much do they cost?

ddub

http://mazdatrix.com/getprice.asp?partnum=11-C00C-N351

http://mazdatrix.com/b3.htm

jhammons01

^^ dDub, They never quit do they?? I think Karacks thread is the first in the archives if not first then 2nd. The Title could not be clearer.

To add to the discussion, I could not find anybody locally that did not advise strongly anything other than Mazda Apex Seals. I did not go to Mazda to buy them as they were cheaper at Mazdatrix. 4 independant builders all suggested that I use the Stock Mazdas.

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

i think i'm gonna use the atkins seals.

Net Seven

iTrader: (5)

If you got a mazda motorsports account the mazda seals are only $34 each. Very nice price, comes to a total of $210 for the seals.

SevenDreamz

Has anyone seen the Rotary Aviaition Engine Installation and Removal Video by Bruce Turrentine? How was it. If it is just as informative as the Engine Rebuild video I certainly will invest in a copy of it.
Mike