Apex Seals...decisions...decisions!
02-27-05, 11:02 AM
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Apex Seals...decisions...decisions!
Hey guys I am beginning my rebuild and I know that Rotary Aviation has great 2mm Apex Seals and I wanted to know if there Apex Seals are better than Atkins Rotary 2mm apex seals or if they are the same or what. I dont want to go to 3mm apex seals if i dont have to and i hear RA 2mm apex seals are GREAT. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Mike
Mike
02-27-05, 11:44 AM
#2
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Rotary Aviation will grant a lifetime warranty if you use new housings. Other than that, there is no consistent evidence that one is better than the other. You will find that some people will say "I made this much boost with this type of seal" or "I had this much detonation with that type of seal". But no true "test" has been done where the seals are placed in the same environment under the same conditions and comparible monitored to see if one can be subjected to more use/abuse with failing.
02-27-05, 12:32 PM
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from what I can see from looking around here is that rotary aviation seems to be the best.. and the fact that they claim there seals have 700% more bending strength and are 85% harder than the current after market competitors (Atkins and Hurley).
I'm definatly going to be buying a rebuild kit from them. and they use Viton oil seals
they must be better, there rebuild kits are designed to be in use in freaking airplanes
I'm definatly going to be buying a rebuild kit from them. and they use Viton oil seals
they must be better, there rebuild kits are designed to be in use in freaking airplanes
02-27-05, 02:03 PM
#6
Yea check out what happend to my housings with RA seals. Im rebuilding with mazda seals. https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/rotary-aviation-apex-seal-report-397712/
02-27-05, 02:28 PM
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So I mean...do RX Seals suck all of a sudden...or do Atkins Seals suck? I mean I thought OEM seals sucked. please help me guys I dont want to have any kind of Apex Seal issues after my rebuild. Steer me in the right direction. Thanks
Mike
Mike
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02-27-05, 02:32 PM
#8
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my vote is on the mazda seals...all the way! mazda has made more seals than anyone else...how many cars out there wth 200k+ miles on aftermarket seals(for na's) and 100k+ miles for turbo's? none i would say!
02-27-05, 02:34 PM
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OE seals are the only seals that have not had any failures like the RA.
A reputable builder I've spoken to recomends Atkins for N/A, and OE for turbo.
-a
Also check out:
http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/ENG...OTORS/apex.htm
A reputable builder I've spoken to recomends Atkins for N/A, and OE for turbo.
-a
Also check out:
http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/ENG...OTORS/apex.htm
02-27-05, 04:00 PM
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Didn't we already go through this?
Really, there are a LOT of apex seal threads. A search for "atkins seals", "RA seals", "rotary aviation seals" and variations on that theme should provide all the info you need.
Really, there are a LOT of apex seal threads. A search for "atkins seals", "RA seals", "rotary aviation seals" and variations on that theme should provide all the info you need.
02-27-05, 04:06 PM
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Aaron I have fully searched...but I am confused on the fact of how OEM Apex Seals will outperform RA or Atkins seals. My engine had the stock Apex Seals in it and the 1st time I ever got on it...I blew an apex seal w/o any warning or anything. I have heard so much talk of how the OEM seals suck...but then how they are the BEST. I just want some real help from some of the guys here on SERIOUSLY which seal would be the best for my streetported S5 13BT...and handle up to 400hp. I have SEARCHED and the results are alot of opinions I can only read...I would much rather start a thread and be able to talk with the people who are giving me answers on this stuff. Where do you order OEM Apex seals at? I just really want good apex seals and I dont want to have to worry about them failing agian.
Mike
Mike
02-27-05, 04:16 PM
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You could have Apex seals made from the left ******** of superman...if your car is not tuned properly, you will blow a seal.
You can buy the OE seals from mazdatrix, dealer, or mazdacomp.
There is a guy on here who just dynoed 500? hp on RA seals. Just about every FC in Japan uses OE seals, and they run more RWHP then you ever will. Some guys have luck with Atkins with moderate boost. Its all a crap-shoot. Dont you see that yet? Its all about rebuild quality, and tuning.
You can buy the OE seals from mazdatrix, dealer, or mazdacomp.
There is a guy on here who just dynoed 500? hp on RA seals. Just about every FC in Japan uses OE seals, and they run more RWHP then you ever will. Some guys have luck with Atkins with moderate boost. Its all a crap-shoot. Dont you see that yet? Its all about rebuild quality, and tuning.
02-27-05, 04:16 PM
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The OEM seals don't suck. Many people make much more then 400 HP on them...
Honestly, any of the seals you mentioned will be fine. I would lean towards the RA seals because of the overwhelming positive response I have heard from people who have used them.
The rotary performance forum contains MANY apex seal threads, where they compare and contrast the various seals.
Once you have that info, you can make the decision. Someone else can't make it for you.
Stock, Atkins or RA seals will not fail unless they are worn or mistakes are made during tuning.
Honestly, any of the seals you mentioned will be fine. I would lean towards the RA seals because of the overwhelming positive response I have heard from people who have used them.
The rotary performance forum contains MANY apex seal threads, where they compare and contrast the various seals.
Once you have that info, you can make the decision. Someone else can't make it for you.
Stock, Atkins or RA seals will not fail unless they are worn or mistakes are made during tuning.
02-27-05, 04:46 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Honestly, any of the seals you mentioned will be fine. I would lean towards the RA seals because of the overwhelming positive response I have heard from people who have used them.
Anyways here are some pictures of my housings when I took my engine apart after 20k miles. Before you say anything about lubrication I premixed 1 ounce per gallon, so there was plenty of lubrication there. These marks on the housings are clearly apex seal wear marks which isnt caused by anything else but the actual apex seals.
02-27-05, 05:36 PM
#17
mazda seals probably are the best due to their research and design but they are slightly more expensive. i say mazda seals are better because of the fact that most of the rotary engines out there on stock seals have made it well over 100k miles on them. that said i will also now that most aftermarket seals get a bad rep because of the fact that most of us who do our own rebuilds also are pushing higher amounts of HP through our engines and pushing the limits of these seals harder than most people do on stock seals.
RA springs have had some problems which is why most people say to reuse the stock mazda springs or replace them with new OEM springs but blaming the seals because they were abused(overheated, run lean, overboosted, etc) is not going to get you any sympathy here.
only seals i would never recommend are Hurley, they have the worst rep of all aftermaket seal providers, RA seals have had their trials but their new design seems to be holding up well with the exception of the springs which cannot take a lot of abuse.
Atkins are good seals for moderately upgraded engines, same goes for RA seals but i suggest not using their springs. mazda seals are good for stock applications and have the most longevity associated with them but i haven't seen enough people pushing their limits with upgraded engines to tell if they are better than the rest or not.
RA springs have had some problems which is why most people say to reuse the stock mazda springs or replace them with new OEM springs but blaming the seals because they were abused(overheated, run lean, overboosted, etc) is not going to get you any sympathy here.
only seals i would never recommend are Hurley, they have the worst rep of all aftermaket seal providers, RA seals have had their trials but their new design seems to be holding up well with the exception of the springs which cannot take a lot of abuse.
Atkins are good seals for moderately upgraded engines, same goes for RA seals but i suggest not using their springs. mazda seals are good for stock applications and have the most longevity associated with them but i haven't seen enough people pushing their limits with upgraded engines to tell if they are better than the rest or not.
02-27-05, 06:48 PM
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the RA springs are CRAP, and the seals will trash your housings before 2 years of normal driving are up - Atkins are OK for NA applications, but the OEM seals are by far the best unless you go to ceramics.
RA seals are coming out of my brand new 13bt and getting sent back - I'm replacing them with stock seals.
-Manolis
RA seals are coming out of my brand new 13bt and getting sent back - I'm replacing them with stock seals.
-Manolis
02-27-05, 07:50 PM
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You cant go wrong with the mazda oem's... its not the cheapest choice, but its the safest choice...I am on round 2 of the RA seals, I am at 1900 km's right now, last time I made it to 10,000 km's on version 1.0 of their seals....Although this new version might work out, first chance I get, the motor is coming apart and oem's are going back in...Max
02-27-05, 08:10 PM
#21
well i will say that i used atkins in my rebuild, i tore it down after 4k miles because i sprang a leak in a rotor housing water jacket. the housings showed little to no more wear than they had when i built the engine, note i also was running about a 120:1 premix.
02-28-05, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Net Seven
.....Thats not the reason the engine failed, it was because I ran a little too lean and got the RA springs hot which caused them to collapse. But anyways thats not the point of this thread, we arent talking about springs we are talking about seals........These marks on the housings are clearly apex seal wear marks which isnt caused by anything else but the actual apex seals.
-jb