87na - no spark, CAS not 'getting thru'
03-27-09, 04:38 PM
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87na - no spark, CAS not 'getting thru'
Left my 87na parked outside for the last 5 months. She ran like a champ when I shut her down. Just keyed her off, dc'ed the battery and walked away. Went to fire her up now and the engine just spins and spins... She has no spark. 
I've done plenty of searching on here on this. The trail of clues has taken me to the CAS, but I can't quite find the info I need from here. Guidance would be appreciated.
Following a HAILERS checklist from another thread, here's the troubleshooting so far:
-- Make sure both EGI fuse are good in the engine bay.
*check
-- Make sure the ENGINE fuse is good in the interior.
*check
-- IF good, then pull the MAIN RELAY's small plug off, the two wire plug. Then put the key to ON. Leave it ON and now put that small plug back on the MAIN RELAY. The relay should click when you do do. (proves the Engine fuse is good)
*I can hear the relay click when I key on. I wasn't able to get at these connectors at the time, but I'll do so next time I go back to the car.
-- Or install the jumper in the yellow fuel pump check connector. Then put the key to ON. You should hear fuel passing thru the fuel rails constantly or hear it splashing in the fuel tank constantly. (Proves the ENGINE fuse is good).
*not checked
-- Or pull the black plastic cover off the LEAD coil assy to expose the two wires attached to the coil itself with two small nuts. Neg meter lead on the batt neg post...positive meter lead on either of the two nuts on the coil assy. Meter on dc volts. You should see batt voltage. (means one EGI fuse is good and the Engine fuse is good).
*check
-- Now pull the any of the solenoid electrical connectors off (colored Blue/yellow/grey/orange/green. Put the meters neg lead on either the batt neg post or the case of the alternator and the positive lead touching the Black/White wire in any of those connectors. Meter on dc volts. You should see batt voltage. (proves the OTHER EGI fuse is good).
*check
I plugged a spare CAS into the harness and spun it by hand. No reaction from the leading plug I had pulled and no sound from the rest of the car. Cranked the car with the AFM disconnected, no change.
This says to me it's time to check things between the CAS and the ECU, and look at the ECU itself. Haven't done the resistance check on the CAS (harness side) connector yet. But what should I be looking for at the ECU?
[edit] Forgot to mention, I kept forgetting to watch the tach for signs of life while cranking, so at the moment idk if it's reporting or not. lol
I've done plenty of searching on here on this. The trail of clues has taken me to the CAS, but I can't quite find the info I need from here. Guidance would be appreciated.
Following a HAILERS checklist from another thread, here's the troubleshooting so far:
-- Make sure both EGI fuse are good in the engine bay.
*check
-- Make sure the ENGINE fuse is good in the interior.
*check
-- IF good, then pull the MAIN RELAY's small plug off, the two wire plug. Then put the key to ON. Leave it ON and now put that small plug back on the MAIN RELAY. The relay should click when you do do. (proves the Engine fuse is good)
*I can hear the relay click when I key on. I wasn't able to get at these connectors at the time, but I'll do so next time I go back to the car.
-- Or install the jumper in the yellow fuel pump check connector. Then put the key to ON. You should hear fuel passing thru the fuel rails constantly or hear it splashing in the fuel tank constantly. (Proves the ENGINE fuse is good).
*not checked
-- Or pull the black plastic cover off the LEAD coil assy to expose the two wires attached to the coil itself with two small nuts. Neg meter lead on the batt neg post...positive meter lead on either of the two nuts on the coil assy. Meter on dc volts. You should see batt voltage. (means one EGI fuse is good and the Engine fuse is good).
*check
-- Now pull the any of the solenoid electrical connectors off (colored Blue/yellow/grey/orange/green. Put the meters neg lead on either the batt neg post or the case of the alternator and the positive lead touching the Black/White wire in any of those connectors. Meter on dc volts. You should see batt voltage. (proves the OTHER EGI fuse is good).
*check
I plugged a spare CAS into the harness and spun it by hand. No reaction from the leading plug I had pulled and no sound from the rest of the car. Cranked the car with the AFM disconnected, no change.
This says to me it's time to check things between the CAS and the ECU, and look at the ECU itself. Haven't done the resistance check on the CAS (harness side) connector yet. But what should I be looking for at the ECU?
[edit] Forgot to mention, I kept forgetting to watch the tach for signs of life while cranking, so at the moment idk if it's reporting or not. lol
03-27-09, 07:51 PM
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[edit] Forgot to mention, I kept forgetting to watch the tach for signs of life while cranking, so at the moment idk if it's reporting or not. lol
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************
Next time take a look at the tach needle when you just go to ON. The needle should do a little twitch. That indicates the trail coil did indeed fire.
And it also means the primary injector(s) fired one time. I learned that recently on another forum. I put a LED on one of the primary wires at the ECU, and went to ON. Tach twitched and the LED at the ECU blinked once. More or less proving the injector fired once.
Someday I'll tie the injectors to the primary rail, and with a pressurized fuel rail, go to ON. Then watch to see if the injector spits once or NOT.
Oops. I see you spun a spare CAS with no good resultes. Did it with the key ON I'm sure. No accounting for that.
You might take a couple of hrs out tomorrow and using the CONTROL UNIT pages out of the FSM (Fuel and Emissions section), compare your readings of each wire on the ECU plugs with what the FSM says it should be. I'd start with the small plug on the ECU.
Pin 2A in the middle plug should have approx 5vdc give or take a half volt. That one is important. Without that 4.5 to 5vdc internal to the ECU, no spark will happen and no fuel injector action.
The small plug will tell you if the power is getting to the ECU from the EGI fuses. That would be the two wires on the far left of the plug when looking into the wire side of the plug. Then all four injector wires should show batt voltage. That would be the light green, light green/red, light green/black, light green/white ones. The the pure black wires should have a good ground on them. No reason for them to not have a good ground. Had to be there the last time it ran. They didn't just fall off.
The coils should show batt voltage on the two nuts/wire on the coils.
CAS don't fail hardly ever. Just have to have the plug on it. Should ohm 'em out from the ECU plug. I forget the value. 220 ohms?????? It's in the engine electrical section somewhere.
Don't you just hate it when a engine just spins, and spins and spins and spins and spins? Worked fine that last time you drove it and won't do anything but spin now.
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************
Next time take a look at the tach needle when you just go to ON. The needle should do a little twitch. That indicates the trail coil did indeed fire.
And it also means the primary injector(s) fired one time. I learned that recently on another forum. I put a LED on one of the primary wires at the ECU, and went to ON. Tach twitched and the LED at the ECU blinked once. More or less proving the injector fired once.
Someday I'll tie the injectors to the primary rail, and with a pressurized fuel rail, go to ON. Then watch to see if the injector spits once or NOT.
Oops. I see you spun a spare CAS with no good resultes. Did it with the key ON I'm sure. No accounting for that.
You might take a couple of hrs out tomorrow and using the CONTROL UNIT pages out of the FSM (Fuel and Emissions section), compare your readings of each wire on the ECU plugs with what the FSM says it should be. I'd start with the small plug on the ECU.
Pin 2A in the middle plug should have approx 5vdc give or take a half volt. That one is important. Without that 4.5 to 5vdc internal to the ECU, no spark will happen and no fuel injector action.
The small plug will tell you if the power is getting to the ECU from the EGI fuses. That would be the two wires on the far left of the plug when looking into the wire side of the plug. Then all four injector wires should show batt voltage. That would be the light green, light green/red, light green/black, light green/white ones. The the pure black wires should have a good ground on them. No reason for them to not have a good ground. Had to be there the last time it ran. They didn't just fall off.
The coils should show batt voltage on the two nuts/wire on the coils.
CAS don't fail hardly ever. Just have to have the plug on it. Should ohm 'em out from the ECU plug. I forget the value. 220 ohms?????? It's in the engine electrical section somewhere.
Don't you just hate it when a engine just spins, and spins and spins and spins and spins? Worked fine that last time you drove it and won't do anything but spin now.
03-27-09, 08:03 PM
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Thanks for the reply.
I do this week. lol It's not like I keyed it off and then hacked at the engine for 3 swings with an axe... Stupid car.
Don't you just hate it when a engine just spins, and spins and spins and spins and spins? Worked fine that last time you drove it and won't do anything but spin now.
03-28-09, 04:21 PM
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lol I'll head back outside after this post.
Oops. I see you spun a spare CAS with no good resultes. Did it with the key ON I'm sure. No accounting for that.
Pin 2A in the middle plug should have approx 5vdc give or take a half volt.
The small plug will tell you if the power is getting to the ECU from the EGI fuses. That would be the two wires on the far left of the plug when looking into the wire side of the plug. Then all four injector wires should show batt voltage. That would be the light green, light green/red, light green/black, light green/white ones.
The the pure black wires should have a good ground on them.
The coils should show batt voltage on the two nuts/wire on the coils.
CAS don't fail hardly ever. Just have to have the plug on it. Should ohm 'em out from the ECU plug. I forget the value. 220 ohms?????? It's in the engine electrical section somewhere.
Other findings:
Main relay - both plugs check out
pin 3I - 12vdc
Tried to fire her up again just to see. No change.
Back outside to check those last two things...
03-28-09, 05:02 PM
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Imma shoot this car...
Tach does bounce while cranking. Can't get above 200 but it does bounce like crazy.
Key on, spinning the CAS gets me spark. Hmm... I reconnect the AFM, put one leading plug where I can see it and crank the car. She sparks.
The leading plug tips were wet when I took them out, so maybe she's still a little flooded. I spin her a few times with the leading plugs out, and then while they're out connect the spare CAS and spin it. Both plugs fire. I put the plugs and fuses back in, hop in the driver's seat, crank and... spinspinspinspin. She still won't catch.
I'm certain she wasn't flooded when I tried that last start-up. I didn't get the typical engine-bay-overflowing-with-vapour cloud at all during my de-flood attempts. I couldn't smell gas at all after the 2nd spin and couldn't smell it on my finger after wiping it around the plug holes.
So we've got fuel, spark, trailing coil firing for sure... but she's still acting like she's flooded all to hell. I'm getting healthy-sounding whooshes both when spinning by hand and when cranking. I've dealt with flooded 7s many times before and *if* it was just flooding I'm certain it would be running now.
The only thing standing out so far is that one injector, except it's a secondary. Other than a compression test, I'm at a bit of a loss. Time for more searching. It sucks that it seems like 60% or more of the threads on that topic end without a resolution.
Tach does bounce while cranking. Can't get above 200 but it does bounce like crazy.
Key on, spinning the CAS gets me spark. Hmm... I reconnect the AFM, put one leading plug where I can see it and crank the car. She sparks.
The leading plug tips were wet when I took them out, so maybe she's still a little flooded. I spin her a few times with the leading plugs out, and then while they're out connect the spare CAS and spin it. Both plugs fire. I put the plugs and fuses back in, hop in the driver's seat, crank and... spinspinspinspin. She still won't catch.
I'm certain she wasn't flooded when I tried that last start-up. I didn't get the typical engine-bay-overflowing-with-vapour cloud at all during my de-flood attempts. I couldn't smell gas at all after the 2nd spin and couldn't smell it on my finger after wiping it around the plug holes.
So we've got fuel, spark, trailing coil firing for sure... but she's still acting like she's flooded all to hell. I'm getting healthy-sounding whooshes both when spinning by hand and when cranking. I've dealt with flooded 7s many times before and *if* it was just flooding I'm certain it would be running now.
The only thing standing out so far is that one injector, except it's a secondary. Other than a compression test, I'm at a bit of a loss. Time for more searching. It sucks that it seems like 60% or more of the threads on that topic end without a resolution.
03-28-09, 06:02 PM
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I think I found my answer. I went back to the car to grab the battery to put it on a charger. Before I took it out, I keyed the car on and looked (for the first time) at the fuel gauge. It didn't budge.
I thought she had gas in her when I parked her. I'll put some in her tonight or tomorrow and see what happens.
I thought she had gas in her when I parked her. I'll put some in her tonight or tomorrow and see what happens.
03-29-09, 06:42 PM
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Ok, put in 4 litres, changed the fuel filter while I was there, and then cranked it.
Nada. When I first turned the key, right away there was a 'pop' from the exhaust (no exhaust sys on the car, btw; just the exhaust manifold) and then she spun. But the spinning this time was a little more laboured-sounding than before. Also unlike before, instead of a steady spinning sound, this time it was like... up and down. WuhwuhWuhwuhWuhwuh Not a major difference between 'up' and 'down,' but noticeable.
I cranked for a full 10-count, then let her sit for a minute. Cranked for another 10 and floored it halfway through. When I floored it, the sound went back to the 'easy' spin sound of before.
Did one last crank after that, this time with the AFM unplugged. No change. Had to call it for the day. I'll dig into her again tomorrow.
Nada.
When I first turned the key, right away there was a 'pop' from the exhaust (no exhaust sys on the car, btw; just the exhaust manifold) and then she spun. But the spinning this time was a little more laboured-sounding than before. Also unlike before, instead of a steady spinning sound, this time it was like... up and down. WuhwuhWuhwuhWuhwuh Not a major difference between 'up' and 'down,' but noticeable.I cranked for a full 10-count, then let her sit for a minute. Cranked for another 10 and floored it halfway through. When I floored it, the sound went back to the 'easy' spin sound of before.
Did one last crank after that, this time with the AFM unplugged. No change. Had to call it for the day. I'll dig into her again tomorrow.
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06-30-09, 03:07 PM
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I didn't want to post until I had something concrete.
After going through and making sure that everything else was fine, it came down the engine's guts. I pulled the exhaust manifold and felt the apex sealson both rotors. There was almost no movement on the rears. The fronts were a little more responsive. A compression test showed the same - no movement on the rear rotor, just a little on the front. It seems that sitting for those 5 months was too long for her. I've had cars sit for longer and fire right up, but not this time. Lesson learned. 
I've been hoping to tow start her for a while now, but either weather or whatever keeps sabotaging that. We'll get her running soon enough. Thanks again to those who replied.
After going through and making sure that everything else was fine, it came down the engine's guts. I pulled the exhaust manifold and felt the apex sealson both rotors. There was almost no movement on the rears. The fronts were a little more responsive. A compression test showed the same - no movement on the rear rotor, just a little on the front. It seems that sitting for those 5 months was too long for her.
I've had cars sit for longer and fire right up, but not this time. Lesson learned. I've been hoping to tow start her for a while now, but either weather or whatever keeps sabotaging that. We'll get her running soon enough. Thanks again to those who replied.
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