hahahahaha, you actually want as much rear grip as possible ...

 

Pics??? Shape isn't a huge problem, since the place I'd go to to make them would use CNC machining anyway. The main issues would be crevaces not accessible from the top, bottom or sides, or corners that are too sharp for a round milling bit. Roughly the same rules apply even if it has to be molded, because then the mold would be CNC machined. Except then you have to think about the negative shape.

After I get an idea of what I'm up against I may want to buy your old bushings so I could study the dimensions, etc. And to get a material sample.

 

This thread is super funny...

Andrew

 

When I first got my car I noticed the effects of DTSS and it did feel a bit weird, like the car really wanted to rotate as it enters into a corner, but then it stabilizes to minor understeer thruout the rest of the corner. At this point i've become used to it, although it does take a little faith in the car to avoid an instinctive counter-steer when turning in. I'll probably be replacing them with the eliminators when I pull apart the rear suspension in a week or two to replace springs, struts, and all the other bushings, just because I dont know of a stock replacement that's ready when I need it.

Most modern suspensions are designed with a bit of toe change based on wheel displacement, some even echoing the change present in the FC's rear suspension, although its done geometrically through some complex multi-link setups, on both the front and rear setups (a sort of designed-in bump steer).

DTSS was designed to react to a combination of lateral force (# of G's) and wheel displacement to arrive at its toe position. What would make a bigger difference would be stiffer springs, shocks, and roll bars which would change wheel deflection vs lateral force. The tire material advnaces wouldnt make as big of a difference because they can still achieve that amount of grip and more, and for a comparable sidewall height and tread depth, slip angles are about the same now as they were in the 80s. What would have more of an effect would be rim size (assuming same overall tire diameter), because this would change the sidewall height, affecting the slip angle vs lateral force relationship.

 

the DTSS is made out of some self lubricating kevlar compound something or other but I was under the impression that it created toe-out at <.5Gs and a Toe-in at the limit of grip to give the car better stability at high speed cornering and the toe out would provide a quicker steering response at low speeds ( watch the you-tube testing video where the FC avoids hitting a mazda truck and a van at low speeds).

so, from the little reading (read this thing AT LEAST 3 times and I'm still going to need to re-read the explanation at least 2 more times before I grap the concept in it's entirety) I've done you would be compromising the toe changes at high Speed cornering, braking, and low speeds.

You cannot compare the CAAS (CASS i can't remember) from nissan and the Honda 4-wheel steering with Mazda's triaxial hub though, almost similar effect but completely different engineering design. I really have to read up more on this though. I'm thinking of buying the DTSS eliminators and using them on the turbo and then test out the NA(with DTSS) and then the TII(without them) to really know what's up.


honestly I've read up the explanation about the DTSS and the triaxial hub many times and it still doesn't sink 100%. I'll be back here tomorrow to see if I had any breakthroughs in my reading.

 

i thought nissans was attesa or something like that. And your right, those systems (and modern ones) dont use deformable bushings to react to loading, they are purely geometric

 

well I know the Z32 had the 4 wheel steering but I can't recall the actual acroyms for it. Off the top of my head I can recall CAAS but i'm not 100% sure.

There was a lot of research and development done to make this hub work. The two bushings expand and contract according to the load and the ball joint helps it move in a 3 dimensional motion. I don't know whether removing it improves the handling as everyone claims because IF it really does IMPROVE handling why would mazda waste millions to develop the triaxial hub? I honestly can't say I've driven an FC without the DTSS so I cannot compare it but I've never had problems with the handling of the car. Perhaps it's the fact that I use this car for it's true purpose: GRIPPING THE ROAD EFFICIENTLY and not controlled loss of grip( drifting).




quick little sentence that popped in my head: If you are gripping on a twisty road or track and you push too hard, would the DTSS HELP you SPIN OUT rather than SLIDE OUT (possibly off a cliff or into a wall or another vehicle)??

I have to really sit down and think about it (you know, the kind of thinking that hurts your brain).

 

The Z32 system is called Super HICAS and nissan boys just hate it. If my memory is right it is powered by hydrolics. DTSS is a good system in my mind, doesn't make a huge difference but it part of the things that make our cars unique and the only reason I see to remove it would be to upgrade the suspension.

 

ah, HICAS, thats it. I like the DTSS system as well, but the lack of new parts (for a reasonable price anyway) kills me

 

Infiniti still uses 4ws on the G35/37. (optional). Anyways, I think the system would still be advantages for your average joe (which most of are). Most people don't have tons of tack experience so the extra stability should be welcome.

 

From my experience, although limited, the DTSS worked wonderfully until my rear wheels actually lost grip and I was attempting to counter steer correctly. While I was doing this the rear end was behaving almost predictably that was until the counter steer swong wide, wasn't so much over compensation as the rear actually felt like it gripped and then went more--i'm assuming that was the DTSS trying to compensate for the shift of the body weight. I then corrected again and it swong even wider--This was perhaps driver error. By this time however I had a blow out on my front drivers tire (absolutly the worst time possible) so I lost the ability to control. The car then slid out, but did not spin out until after hitting the pylons.

So in answer to your question: in real world experience, although perhaps flawed under the circumstance, you will slide out. However if I did not correct the final time I believe I would have spun out--but the result would still have been the same. I would have hit a pylon.

 

bump?

 

*cough*

 

Ya sry, still haven't e-mailed the two companies. Sounds like a good thing to do this weekend if I don't go lanning.

 

dtss works fine... compared to super hicas.... ugh. the thought of super hicas blows. lol

 

Some people here came close to this description, but I'll put in my own two cents:

The problem with DTSS is that yes, it adds some toe-in at the limit, which gives you a little more limit. When you exceed that limit, the cornering force on the wheel goes away, and it goes back to the initial toe-out/less toe-in position, which means now you're WAY past the limit, and the limit is now going to squirm around on you while you try to balance the car with the throttle and steering wheel.

Just run aggressive camber and toe settings and use cheap but good Kumho tires and replace them when your alignment eats them up.

 

But then Ideally the system works. It increases the limits of the car, so anyone driving the car that hard (assuming they know what their doing) would benefit. I'll admit I don't have that amount of skill, but it's still a cool concept to think the car increases it limits -to a point- the harder someone drives it.

 

The was a link someone had to the training manual that explained the parts of the car. This wasn't the FSM that told you how to fix things, but a training manual that told you how it worked. It had a really good section on the DTSS. I will host it if no one can dig up the link soon.

 

But you can just run static toe and then the limit is always increased, you don't need it to automatically increase it. The penalty is increased tire wear, but tires are cheap. The initial toe condition helps turn-in, but you can also improve turn-in with more negative camber (more tire wear again) and messing with sway bars.

And again, it will bother someone who knows what they're doing, as they are trying to keep the car balanced on the limit and the limit is squirming around.

There is a reason that everyone who races these things removes it.

 

im a firm believer that the dtss was just added to give the average driver the impression that his car was turning faster, when its actually just the toe just flopping around under hard cornering.

i hated that feeling, the rear end never felt stable to me. kinda scary.
one of the first things i did was install eliminators.

not to mention the first fc i had the dtss bushings fell out in pieces when i removed the bolts...

 

Then again, once you get used to the DTSS, you do gain time around a track, that is, if your DTSS works properly. It's all about getting used to the car.

 

I recently went the DTSS eliminator way and here are my observations:

Before, with the stock DTSS system intact, which by the way, was in horrible shape when we removed it, the car was setup with 1/16th inch toe out in the front wheels and 0 toe in the back. Camber was set at maximum in the front, using stock strut mount settings, so possibly anywhere from -0 to -0.7 degrees of camber in the front. Rear was set at -0.5 degrees of camber at both wheels. Struts were Koni Yellows (adjusted 1.625 turns in the front (out of 2.5 turns) and (1.1375 turns in the back (Out of 1.75 turns). Springs were stock GTUs/TII springs. Sway bars were stock GTUs front and back, with stock endlinks.

The new settings were somewhat different with the DTSS removed. Camber bolts were added as a temporary solution to get some added camber. Camber was approaching -2.0 in the front. Rear camber remained unchanged. Toe remained unchanged. Shocks were now Bilstein Heavy Duty mounted on RB lowering strut mounts. Springs were NA springs. Sway bars were stock GTUs/TII sways with Mazdatrix endlinks.

To summarize:

With DTSS:
Front Camber: 0 to -0.7 degrees (Maximum on strut mounts, caster likewise affected)
Rear Camber: -0.5 degrees
Front Toe: 1/16th inch toe out
Rear Toe: 0
Shocks: Koni Yellows (Adjusted 65% of maximum)
Springs: GTUs/TII
Sway Bars: GTUs/TII
Sway Bar Endlinks: Stock

After DTSS removal:
Front Camber: 0 to -0.7 degrees (Maximum on strut mounts, caster likewise affected)
Rear Camber: -0.5 degrees
Front Toe: 1/16th inch toe out
Rear Toe: 0
Shocks: Bilstein Heavy Duty on RB Lowering Strut Mounts
Springs: NA
Sway Bars: GTUs/TII
Sway Bar Endlinks: Mazdatrix Adjustable

Impressions:
After the DTSS removal, the rear became much more washy. I'm definitely attributing this in part to the springs and other factors, but with the old setup, I could be on the gas a lot more than I was with the new. As soon as I trail-braked, the rear started coming around and I had to counter-steer. When I had the old settings, I could step on the gas a lot more in the corners. I'd like to think some of that had to do with the toe-in applied after a certain amount of G-force. suffice it to say, the new settings would not work well at all.

I'm going to be changing to another setting soon, in order to test my theories. I'm in the camp that DTSS does work well once you get used to the system. If you can get good enough to gradually modulate the g-load on each tire individually, you should get a sense of when the DTSS will kick in, and compensate accordingly., usually by being able to get on the gas earlier out of a corner. I'm going to my next autocross with the same specs as before, except the NA springs will be changed to TII springs and the RB strut mounts will be changed to stock strut mounts. After that session and before my next HPDE, I'll be changing my alignment as well.

My new specs:
Toe Front: 1/8 inch toe out
Toe Rear: 1/16th inch toe in
Front Camber: Maximum, but even (Around -1.8 degrees)
Rear Camber: Maximum but even (Around -0.5 degrees)
Shocks: Bilstein Heavy Duty (Stock Strut Mounts)
Springs: GTUs/TII
Sway Bars: GTUs/TII
Sway Bar Endlinks: Mazdatrix Adjustable