What are the "known" internal oil mods...
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From: Plymouth, MN
What are the "known" internal oil mods...
I searched for this but I couldn't find anything concrete...I might have not been wording it properly in the search.
I would like input on engine modification in the lubrication department...Particularly what is done to the rotors and the eccentric shaft? I am contemplating building my own motor(Ive built, ported and dowel pinned my rotaries before several times) but since its a 20B I want to do oil mods to it. If I were to pay to send it to PR and get built there, they would perform these "mods" to it but no one seems to ever talk about what exactly these "mods" are and this the only part of the build that I am unfamiliar with since most of the engines I built in the past were renesis and I didn't touch the lubrication system(its great as it is for high RPM).
Any input is greatly appreciated. I am sure other people have the same questions so it will benefit more than just me..Hopefully
.
Best regards,
Chris
I would like input on engine modification in the lubrication department...Particularly what is done to the rotors and the eccentric shaft? I am contemplating building my own motor(Ive built, ported and dowel pinned my rotaries before several times) but since its a 20B I want to do oil mods to it. If I were to pay to send it to PR and get built there, they would perform these "mods" to it but no one seems to ever talk about what exactly these "mods" are and this the only part of the build that I am unfamiliar with since most of the engines I built in the past were renesis and I didn't touch the lubrication system(its great as it is for high RPM).
Any input is greatly appreciated. I am sure other people have the same questions so it will benefit more than just me..Hopefully
.Best regards,
Chris
Thread Starter
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 799
Likes: 3
From: Plymouth, MN
Chris
well, my take on it is this ...
you can modify the eccentric shaft jets for more flow by removing the ball and spring and adding a Weber air jet (2.0mm). you don't want to go ape-**** with the size of the jet because it will lower the pressure, and with the 20B being longer than a 13B, i'd imagine pressure would be a pretty sensitive issue.
i imagine the stock 20B pump would be good enough for volume, but you'll have to check to see if it is hardened. i know Mazda made hardened pumps in the past, so you'd expect them not to take a step backward, but with some of the things they did with Rx-8, i have to wonder ...
port and polish the pump passages on the front housing.
if you wish, you can add teardrops to the inlets of the shaft. do a search with the user Blue TII, if you have trouble finding it, let me know.
the 8 window main bearings in tandem with race spec rotor bearings are probably a good idea as well. however, if it comes down to a choice, choose the mains.
i'm really not sure how comfortable you would be drilling and tapping the front housing for the front galley, but that is a proven mod when it's done right. however, i think i'd be a bit hesitant if it were mine because they can crack if not done correctly. also, i can only imagine that some similar mod can be done to the thick housing for the center rotor as well, but i don't know for sure.
i don't know which rear regulator the 20B came with, but if it checks out to be rated less than the 13B-REW specs (i think it's like 100 or 110 psi), then the REW is a bolt-on upgrade. if you wish, you can smash the front end of the stock one to increase the spring rate on it. again, check to make sure what the stock pressure limits are, because you may not NEED to modify the rear or shim the front.
that's what i can offer off the top of my head. most of this stuff are things i do to all engines i build, so if i can do it, i'm sure its not that hard. i've seen your Renesis work, it shouldn't be problem. if i think of anything else, i'll post again.
you can modify the eccentric shaft jets for more flow by removing the ball and spring and adding a Weber air jet (2.0mm). you don't want to go ape-**** with the size of the jet because it will lower the pressure, and with the 20B being longer than a 13B, i'd imagine pressure would be a pretty sensitive issue.
i imagine the stock 20B pump would be good enough for volume, but you'll have to check to see if it is hardened. i know Mazda made hardened pumps in the past, so you'd expect them not to take a step backward, but with some of the things they did with Rx-8, i have to wonder ...
port and polish the pump passages on the front housing.
if you wish, you can add teardrops to the inlets of the shaft. do a search with the user Blue TII, if you have trouble finding it, let me know.
the 8 window main bearings in tandem with race spec rotor bearings are probably a good idea as well. however, if it comes down to a choice, choose the mains.
i'm really not sure how comfortable you would be drilling and tapping the front housing for the front galley, but that is a proven mod when it's done right. however, i think i'd be a bit hesitant if it were mine because they can crack if not done correctly. also, i can only imagine that some similar mod can be done to the thick housing for the center rotor as well, but i don't know for sure.
i don't know which rear regulator the 20B came with, but if it checks out to be rated less than the 13B-REW specs (i think it's like 100 or 110 psi), then the REW is a bolt-on upgrade. if you wish, you can smash the front end of the stock one to increase the spring rate on it. again, check to make sure what the stock pressure limits are, because you may not NEED to modify the rear or shim the front.
that's what i can offer off the top of my head. most of this stuff are things i do to all engines i build, so if i can do it, i'm sure its not that hard. i've seen your Renesis work, it shouldn't be problem. if i think of anything else, i'll post again.
Thread Starter
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 799
Likes: 3
From: Plymouth, MN
well, my take on it is this ...
you can modify the eccentric shaft jets for more flow by removing the ball and spring and adding a Weber air jet (2.0mm). you don't want to go ape-**** with the size of the jet because it will lower the pressure, and with the 20B being longer than a 13B, i'd imagine pressure would be a pretty sensitive issue.
i imagine the stock 20B pump would be good enough for volume, but you'll have to check to see if it is hardened. i know Mazda made hardened pumps in the past, so you'd expect them not to take a step backward, but with some of the things they did with Rx-8, i have to wonder ...
port and polish the pump passages on the front housing.
if you wish, you can add teardrops to the inlets of the shaft. do a search with the user Blue TII, if you have trouble finding it, let me know.
the 8 window main bearings in tandem with race spec rotor bearings are probably a good idea as well. however, if it comes down to a choice, choose the mains.
i'm really not sure how comfortable you would be drilling and tapping the front housing for the front galley, but that is a proven mod when it's done right. however, i think i'd be a bit hesitant if it were mine because they can crack if not done correctly. also, i can only imagine that some similar mod can be done to the thick housing for the center rotor as well, but i don't know for sure.
i don't know which rear regulator the 20B came with, but if it checks out to be rated less than the 13B-REW specs (i think it's like 100 or 110 psi), then the REW is a bolt-on upgrade. if you wish, you can smash the front end of the stock one to increase the spring rate on it. again, check to make sure what the stock pressure limits are, because you may not NEED to modify the rear or shim the front.
that's what i can offer off the top of my head. most of this stuff are things i will do to all engines i build, so if i can do it, i'm sure its not that hard. i've seen your Renesis work, it shouldn't be problem. if i think of anything else, i'll post again.
you can modify the eccentric shaft jets for more flow by removing the ball and spring and adding a Weber air jet (2.0mm). you don't want to go ape-**** with the size of the jet because it will lower the pressure, and with the 20B being longer than a 13B, i'd imagine pressure would be a pretty sensitive issue.
i imagine the stock 20B pump would be good enough for volume, but you'll have to check to see if it is hardened. i know Mazda made hardened pumps in the past, so you'd expect them not to take a step backward, but with some of the things they did with Rx-8, i have to wonder ...
port and polish the pump passages on the front housing.
if you wish, you can add teardrops to the inlets of the shaft. do a search with the user Blue TII, if you have trouble finding it, let me know.
the 8 window main bearings in tandem with race spec rotor bearings are probably a good idea as well. however, if it comes down to a choice, choose the mains.
i'm really not sure how comfortable you would be drilling and tapping the front housing for the front galley, but that is a proven mod when it's done right. however, i think i'd be a bit hesitant if it were mine because they can crack if not done correctly. also, i can only imagine that some similar mod can be done to the thick housing for the center rotor as well, but i don't know for sure.
i don't know which rear regulator the 20B came with, but if it checks out to be rated less than the 13B-REW specs (i think it's like 100 or 110 psi), then the REW is a bolt-on upgrade. if you wish, you can smash the front end of the stock one to increase the spring rate on it. again, check to make sure what the stock pressure limits are, because you may not NEED to modify the rear or shim the front.
that's what i can offer off the top of my head. most of this stuff are things i will do to all engines i build, so if i can do it, i'm sure its not that hard. i've seen your Renesis work, it shouldn't be problem. if i think of anything else, i'll post again.
Hey, thanks a million man...I appreciate all the tips and will look into them.
I do have one more questions. On nearly every 3 rotor build I have seen there is a thick A/N oil line that runs from somewhere in the back (might be the oil filter area) and attaches into what I believe is the Center iron (maybe its the front iron..don't remember) its on the spark plug side of the engine and its added by the user, not OEM. What is the purpose of this? Its almost like you are by-passing the top dowel pin which flows oil through it. Do anyone know what the purpose is and from where and to where is it connected?
Thanks
Chris
Chris,
yeah, that's the mod that i mentioned where you'd have to drill and tap the front housing. on the 13Bs, you'll see an oil passage running from the front stationargy gear area to the spark plug side, that dead ends in a flat, circular area. i can only imagine it's the same on a 20B, since people use 13B fronts and rears to replace broken 20B fare at times. i'm sure you'll see it when you pull the engine apart.
anyway, that's the oil galley that leads directly to the front main bearing. the loop line is to insure that it gets the same oil flow as the rear main. again, i would imagine the center rotor would have something similar, but i've never worked with a 20B, so i honestly don't know.
13B-Rx3 has a thread that describes the mod, and i think it even had photos of the process. i know you're supposed to use straight AN fittings as opposed to the AN fitting with the tapered NPT end, because the tapered fitting is what usually leads to cracking. however, like i said before, i personally have never done that mod because i'd cry if i broke a housing without even getting to use it - and i only work with 12A and 13Bs. i can only imagine slashing my wrists if i were to do it with a 20B project. however, it's also a tried and true modification whenever you're making SERIOUS power and strive for maximum oil supply, but i'm not on that level yet.
yeah, that's the mod that i mentioned where you'd have to drill and tap the front housing. on the 13Bs, you'll see an oil passage running from the front stationargy gear area to the spark plug side, that dead ends in a flat, circular area. i can only imagine it's the same on a 20B, since people use 13B fronts and rears to replace broken 20B fare at times. i'm sure you'll see it when you pull the engine apart.
anyway, that's the oil galley that leads directly to the front main bearing. the loop line is to insure that it gets the same oil flow as the rear main. again, i would imagine the center rotor would have something similar, but i've never worked with a 20B, so i honestly don't know.
13B-Rx3 has a thread that describes the mod, and i think it even had photos of the process. i know you're supposed to use straight AN fittings as opposed to the AN fitting with the tapered NPT end, because the tapered fitting is what usually leads to cracking. however, like i said before, i personally have never done that mod because i'd cry if i broke a housing without even getting to use it - and i only work with 12A and 13Bs. i can only imagine slashing my wrists if i were to do it with a 20B project. however, it's also a tried and true modification whenever you're making SERIOUS power and strive for maximum oil supply, but i'm not on that level yet.
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When I did my rebuild last spring I enlarged all the oil passages;1/2" from pump out, 3/8" all ports to stationary gears. I also installed an external oil finter and plumbed -AN lines to Rear, thick Center and front. I also shimmed the front regulator and increased the rear pressure.
The only mod I didn't to is install slightly stiffer springs for the oil jets. Carlos Lopez told me about this when I was down there. He also mentioned another way of doing it. Give him a call.
The only mod I didn't to is install slightly stiffer springs for the oil jets. Carlos Lopez told me about this when I was down there. He also mentioned another way of doing it. Give him a call.
i was going to make this thread right after this thread was made. i have been wondering about all the oil/cooling mods i just got my new engine 2 days ago and hope to do many mods. Wish The previous posts had links :/
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 750
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From: Cedar Rapids IA
Its always good to be on friendly terms with some of the PR guys! They really keep their findings to themselves.
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