Is it really worth going 20b over 13b performance wise?
Is it really worth going 20b over 13b performance wise?
Hey everyone, to all the people who have owned fast 13b's and 20b's, im in a debate to build a 700hp street car. Now i understand the ease to make power on a 20b but does a 700 hp 20b really perform better than a 700 hp 13b? Yes it makes more torque but just the differences i seen in videos are minimal and in alot of times 13b's prevail. So to those with personal experience, is it just the fact of having a 20b or is it really better performance and reliability that sets them apart?
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From: nanaimo
Most people find out 700 hp is pretty much useless on the street. With a light car such as the rx7 with only so much tire and weight over the wheels you just cant put down much more than 400 whp. Anything more is a lesson in frustration. A 20b isn't much faster until you hit about 130 mph. It will be a little more drivable but not worth the $30k to do it right, imho. A well built 13bwith the right turbo is more than u need for the street. Also 20b has big torque so u have to do the t56 tranny.
The A code 20B has much smaller dowel pin landings then the C/D codes. If it has all the internal mods then it may hold up, tuning has a lot to do with it.
700whp can be made at around 20-25psi on a 20B, it can take 35-40psi on a 13B, this of course is all dependent on the turbo and other mods being used. Also which dyno is being used. So at that level of power the 20B is technically "more reliable" simply because it is not being pushed as hard, it does after all have more displacement.
My 20B is making well over 750rwhp (Mustang Dyno) on the FD trans. Now that the car is running 335 Pilots, I started smoking the Exedy Twin Disk clutch and have a new Exedy Triple Disk waiting to go in. I do have several spare transmissions waiting, just in case.
700whp can be made at around 20-25psi on a 20B, it can take 35-40psi on a 13B, this of course is all dependent on the turbo and other mods being used. Also which dyno is being used. So at that level of power the 20B is technically "more reliable" simply because it is not being pushed as hard, it does after all have more displacement.
My 20B is making well over 750rwhp (Mustang Dyno) on the FD trans. Now that the car is running 335 Pilots, I started smoking the Exedy Twin Disk clutch and have a new Exedy Triple Disk waiting to go in. I do have several spare transmissions waiting, just in case.
Pros: The sound, and (theoretically) the driveability and reliability.
Cons: Cost, complexity, weight.
Depending on whether there's E85 readily available, you may be able to push 700hp on a 13b relatively reliably. I say relatively though, because for the cost of going 20B once, you could drop several 13Bs and turbo CHRAs in your car.
Cons: Cost, complexity, weight.
Depending on whether there's E85 readily available, you may be able to push 700hp on a 13b relatively reliably. I say relatively though, because for the cost of going 20B once, you could drop several 13Bs and turbo CHRAs in your car.
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I haven't yet, the car has been making over 600whp for 5 years or so but then again I do not track the car and I do know how to shift properly. However, the 275 F1s were not up to the task, so they just spun, with the wider/stickier 335 tires and more power, who knows what is going to break once I get the clutch to stop slipping. It never ends, that is why I have other "milder" cars that only make 450whp, which are very reliable.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; Oct 21, 2015 at 08:49 AM.
It definitely looks, sounds, and feels amazing. The low-end is mind blowing and the HP/PSI is incredible comparatively.
Is the performance gain worth it? This depends on HP goals. In my opinion, the rotary is reliable enough up to roughly 250hp / Rotor. Therefore, if your goal is only 500hp, a 13b is best suited for its weight/cost. If you're going for beyond that, and especially thinking 750+ then most certainly the 20b will do you well!
But, there's a lot more to enjoying the car then solely performance gains!
Good luck!
Is the performance gain worth it? This depends on HP goals. In my opinion, the rotary is reliable enough up to roughly 250hp / Rotor. Therefore, if your goal is only 500hp, a 13b is best suited for its weight/cost. If you're going for beyond that, and especially thinking 750+ then most certainly the 20b will do you well!
But, there's a lot more to enjoying the car then solely performance gains!
Good luck!
Last edited by Monsterbox; Oct 21, 2015 at 09:15 AM.
The A code 20B has much smaller dowel pin landings then the C/D codes. If it has all the internal mods then it may hold up, tuning has a lot to do with it.
700whp can be made at around 20-25psi on a 20B, it can take 35-40psi on a 13B, this of course is all dependent on the turbo and other mods being used. Also which dyno is being used. So at that level of power the 20B is technically "more reliable" simply because it is not being pushed as hard, it does after all have more displacement.
My 20B is making well over 750rwhp (Mustang Dyno) on the FD trans. Now that the car is running 335 Pilots, I started smoking the Exedy Twin Disk clutch and have a new Exedy Triple Disk waiting to go in. I do have several spare transmissions waiting, just in case.
700whp can be made at around 20-25psi on a 20B, it can take 35-40psi on a 13B, this of course is all dependent on the turbo and other mods being used. Also which dyno is being used. So at that level of power the 20B is technically "more reliable" simply because it is not being pushed as hard, it does after all have more displacement.
My 20B is making well over 750rwhp (Mustang Dyno) on the FD trans. Now that the car is running 335 Pilots, I started smoking the Exedy Twin Disk clutch and have a new Exedy Triple Disk waiting to go in. I do have several spare transmissions waiting, just in case.
There is a local guy that assures that he will make that on a large street port, e85, with cosmo intakes and a haltech elite. We will see when tunes it in may. Hes one of the guys that told me to ditch the 20b. Jeje
Wow thanks for all the input. Well im in a position where im half way to complete the 20b build. And what really makes me think it twice is this built A code 20b that sean at aspec build. Just getting alot of concern from people do to the fact that its an A code. According to sean once this A code block was pinned, it would have no problem handling 700 hp. He said it would not matter anymore what code it was once it was pinned. And now that aspec is out of business no one realy wants to warranty this build. So i either try to sale what i have and build a nice 13b or find someone that can help me finish this build and actually warranty it. Another concern im having is the adaptronic e1280s that i was suppose to use. Theres alot of things going around that adaptronics are acting up or not working correctly.
On the other note, i was told that if i was gonna drag race 13b was the way to go but for on a roll racing 20b is the one.
On the other note, i was told that if i was gonna drag race 13b was the way to go but for on a roll racing 20b is the one.
Wow thanks for all the input. Well im in a position where im half way to complete the 20b build. And what really makes me think it twice is this built A code 20b that sean at aspec build. Just getting alot of concern from people do to the fact that its an A code. According to sean once this A code block was pinned, it would have no problem handling 700 hp. He said it would not matter anymore what code it was once it was pinned. And now that aspec is out of business no one realy wants to warranty this build. So i either try to sale what i have and build a nice 13b or find someone that can help me finish this build and actually warranty it. Another concern im having is the adaptronic e1280s that i was suppose to use. Theres alot of things going around that adaptronics are acting up or not working correctly.
On the other note, i was told that if i was gonna drag race 13b was the way to go but for on a roll racing 20b is the one.
On the other note, i was told that if i was gonna drag race 13b was the way to go but for on a roll racing 20b is the one.
This even happened when I moved to our twin scroll manifolds with dual wastegates. First time one was on a dyno the car made less power than before, and instantly they blamed the manifold. Low and beyond after they sorted out their issues the car broke the known record for most RWHP on an S366(666rwhp!).
I tune an Adaptronic car EVERY week, and even at zero smoothing the cars are extremely clean in their pulls. I have never even lost an engine while dyno tuning an Adaptronic...
I am using the 1280s and its working fine. Car makes clean power and hardly any issues. Just a little throttle tip in hesitation at high-rpm, that hasn't been worked out yet. I don't have evidence to blame this on the 1280s. If you have this ECU, there's no reason not to run it.
With my build thread/setup, there were initial tuning issues / base map things that had to be sorted as it was the first time running on a 20b.
With my build thread/setup, there were initial tuning issues / base map things that had to be sorted as it was the first time running on a 20b.
Thats nice to hear. What do you mean hardly any issues? So theres things that once in a while happen do to the e1280s?
Im beeing highly recomeded to go with whats proven, 2500 haltec elite. As im told the adaptronic is still in its initial states and needs more development. I dont know much about the potential of all these ecu's and on how to tune or realy how to know wich is the better one.
Im beeing highly recomeded to go with whats proven, 2500 haltec elite. As im told the adaptronic is still in its initial states and needs more development. I dont know much about the potential of all these ecu's and on how to tune or realy how to know wich is the better one.
I am using the 1280s and its working fine. Car makes clean power and hardly any issues. Just a little throttle tip in hesitation at high-rpm, that hasn't been worked out yet. I don't have evidence to blame this on the 1280s. If you have this ECU, there's no reason not to run it.
With my build thread/setup, there were initial tuning issues / base map things that had to be sorted as it was the first time running on a 20b.
With my build thread/setup, there were initial tuning issues / base map things that had to be sorted as it was the first time running on a 20b.
The ECU is highly advanced. It has a million options and is fully programmable at the logic level.
However, because my car was the first 20b the run this computer, there were a few setup things that needed to be figured out to make it run correctly. Its now pretty much flawless.
The only issues I'm experiencing are a hesitation before it breaks free into boost as you stab the throttle at high rpm and once in a while it's difficult to start at high coolant temps. These both should be tunable things that we, myself and the tuner, didn't have time to address on the dyno.
I see no reason not to use this ECU.
However, because my car was the first 20b the run this computer, there were a few setup things that needed to be figured out to make it run correctly. Its now pretty much flawless.
The only issues I'm experiencing are a hesitation before it breaks free into boost as you stab the throttle at high rpm and once in a while it's difficult to start at high coolant temps. These both should be tunable things that we, myself and the tuner, didn't have time to address on the dyno.
I see no reason not to use this ECU.
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