Hello everyone My name is Marcus Kener and my friends
call me Kenny.



I do realize that a 20b swap is a huge undertaking more so than I can imagine and I have gotten a couple
expectations from threads on here such as ThmMotorsport build and other sites.
The conversion will be done mostly between closely knit friends and a professional will be brought where the services is needed.
There are also experienced people who will chip in little nuggets of information
when necessary.
We want to do most of it ourselves so that we can know every nut and bolt

We have already considered the 13b and realized that its not in our interest to go that route in the long run.
This project should be off the ground and making progress in around 2-4 years and during that time research will be priority but one thing that is puzzling everyone is which platform to place the engine in.

Currently I have $20,000 in savings and $6000 that friends are putting to get it off the ground.
We do hope to raise the budget in the future and can put atleast 10k towards the project every year if the saving plan goes well.


One thing that puzzles us to no end is the platform to put the swap in
So far we have considered the Rx8 , Rx3 , Bmw e36 , Bmw M3 gtr and old 911 chasis we have seen some good prices going around for the above shells except the rx8 .
Once we settle one a choice for shell priority will be getting the chassis tubed and working on the swap (engine management , wiring etc) and of course suspension will right up there on the list.

One benfit we are looking at with the rx 8 is using the engine in it for the time being and rack up some seat time but that's not a deal breaker for us.
I think I speak for the group when I say that we are not looking to build a monster right off the bat but a reliable machine and one that is sorted thenwe can move towards that direction.


The car will be competing in circuits and sprint with 4 laps minimum and
the tracks will be generally fast but our home tracks are not very fast so the ability to provide cooling to the engine and breaks is very important.



we are open to any suggestions for research and any advice.




OPTIONAL READING


This project was inspired by our love for racing and wanting to give the love to the rotatory that a lot of piston riders put down.

Sure we could slap a vette engine in and call it day and have tons more money to work on other aspects of the car but we all decided that this is the path we want to go.
We all have a fair amount of Super karting background but we all shared the desire to take it even further.


We will also have a b18c1 build to compete in some road races and for the school I will be enrolling in next month.

 

any input?

We would appreciate any advice

 

Im not sure exactly what your questions are? The 20B can be a great performance platform, which is why some of us have chosen to go that route, but cheap it is not. If I were to be competitively racing something, where chances of blowing or damaging the engine were far higher than even the most extreme street/track build.. that would be a major issue for me. 13B parts are fairly plentiful and can be substituted for things like housings and outer irons, but e-shafts and especially center plates are $$$. Prices of used 20Bs seem to be going up as well. Unless you find a killer deal, youre probably looking at $4k for a used engine, that as Im sure you know, it is highly recommended to be torn down and rebuild. Even if all the rotors/housings are reusable youre still looking at a couple grand for a base rebuild. Price and parts availability are really the only negatives for a track build, but depending on your situation they can be big negatives. Seriously all of that 20K budget is going to be engine/turbo/management setup.

 

If you want a motor that isnt going to blow up and dont have to dump tons of money into it, dump the 20b and get you some 2jz in your life. Rotary motors have to many flaws in my eyes. I know the rotary crowd is going to get mad but its the truth. The motor eats up oil like a fat man eats cup cakes. I dont like the fact that the motor has more seals then the navy. And you have to rip the motor apart like crazy and the ones that dont is because the dont drive them that much. With about 5 to 8 grand you can make 800 rwhp you could bearly start anything with that on a 20b swap. I know because i was about 20 k into my 20b swap and it wasnt even running yet. Then i sold it and went to the 2jz motors and will never look back. The motors are cheap and you dont have to rebuild them as soon as you buy them from an importer. My friend just got a 13b motor from an importer ripped it apart and needs housings for it. When i broght mine same thing. So take my advise how you want but i been there done that so i know.

 

I disagree with you. yes perhaps the engine can make 800 with 8 grand but pray that it doesn't blow up. I have many friends with Supra's and know several of the big boys here in Florida running in the 1200hp and so on. A used supra engine will not hold 800 stock for too long. (Plenty of stories to tell you about many of my friends). The secret of the rotary engine is all about the engine builder and tuning. The point you made about your friend getting a bad motor it can also happend with any other engine even a 2jz as i have seen many times. If the car is going to be raced in road course for alot of laps i would recommend going N/A because is less stressful for the engine and you can easily make 400-450 maybe more with the right set up great for road course. Recommend using a FD3s for the platform since its very lightweight and great handling car. I will highly encourage you to build it and if you need help feel free to contact me.

PS. the rotary engine is a far superior engine for racing if its prepared, built, and tuned well. My point is solidify by how well the factory rx8's are doing in all the races and also why rotary engines were band for LeMans years ago because they were dominating the competition. I also know that 2jz and the RB26 are great engines but the 3 rotors give them a great fight. Its all about the builder and tuning. Rotaries get a bad rap because when it comes to R&D doesnt have the backing that piston engine have and years of research. Just imagine if the rotary engine had that much R&D, where we be now.

 

My first question is what class are you running, and what are the rules? It is hard to find sanctioned classes that allow the 20B unless it is NA, and an NA 20B is no better than a 13B turbo.

Any platform is fine, but keep in mind that for a well built engine, this will be a high power, high torque engine with a very large dTq/dt when it spools, so you need something where you can have a rear bias weight distribution and run big rear tires to get the most from the setup without major traction issues.

 

To be honest, this is all too typical of someone who gets into rotary engines without bothering to learn anything about them. Remember, this is a completely different type of engine, and what worked on your honda isn't going to fly. Throwing money at the problem doesn't help either unless the person catching the money is very rotary savvy.

I, for example, built a complete 600 whp 20B FC for $7k, and put 20k+ miles on it without any problems.

Not that there is anything wrong with the 2jz, but it sounds like your experience was more an exercise in ignorance than a representative example.

 

@Rxmfn7

Yes we know that most of the budget will be absorbed by the engine build but
that is what we are prepared for that.
Reason why we did not go with a 13B because we need the extra torque the 20B provides when coming out of the corners.

Me and keith drove the race prepped 13B Rx8 and Once the 13B was able to hit boost it was ok but when coming out of the corners the car just wasn't as responsive even when we used momentum way of exiting the corners.

So the question is what to put it in Rx7 FD3s or Bmw e36


@ turbotito121079

We appreciate your opinion but even if we were going that direction
it would be the 1jz but even then the engine is too heavy and that would impact the car too much and our flexibility of competing in different classes.
HP is not the goal here and even if we did it doesn't go hand in hand with winning a race.

Besides we love rotaries



@ RZMotorsports

I agree with what you posted and Point take ^^


Its a fight between the rx7 FD and the BMW E36 (my personal choice)

The choice is up to me since I will be the one driving and which chassis will suit me more.

 

The car will be very flexible because the rules where we will be racing allow the 20B
to compete in 3 classes
The 20B will be turbo charged and not NA.

The traction issues is whats holding us making a decision.

We dont know which chassis will enable us to put the power down effectively and Suspension does play part in that to so thats why we are trying to get some experienced opinions and doing alot of reading in the process.

 

+1. racing classes have rules....

IMO my friends have considered 20B into other cars, and here is the opinion about your choices.

Rx3, too small, too rare, too old.

E36/E46. the E36's have a big knowledge base, and you need it too, most of the car needs to be redone to make it race worthy. the E46 should be in the same boat, but knowledge is really spotty. also the E46 is HEAVY, a stripped out aluminum block car with cage is still 3400lbs. the BMW's have lots of cheap ricer parts too, and not many people know how to pick the good stuff over the crap. you will get chastised for removing the ballast they call an engine and replacing it with a rotary....

911. the engine is in the wrong end! however there are decades of knowledge on how to make a 911 fast. you will get chastised and sold to the romans at supper for putting a rotary in one....

FC Rx7. we've considered it over the years, we know how to do it, in NA PP configuration there is enough room for a cooling system that will work, with a turbo probably not.

FD Rx7. its got a good suspension, but parts are too expensive for a race car, $1000 control arms are Porsche territory.

Rx8. this is the one we would choose. the chassis/suspension is amazing. there is plenty of room. Mazda runs these in all kinds of things and they have done very well. the Miata's are faster, mazda has even won the 25 hours of thunderhill outright with them.

 

i hear the same crap about the rotary motor all you guys are indenial bro. rubber parts inside a motor no wonder they dont last. its all about the tuner and builder come on guys. face it beat the crap out the motor and i bet it wont last as long as a supra motor. 13b 20b the more rotors the crapier the motor more seals more chances of blowing up. you guys are making the oil prices go up with all the oil the damn motor consumes. everyone i ever talked to about rotary motors say the same thing its all about the builder and tuner but thats the casde with any motor. with the damn rotary motors you detnate cobooom not with a piston. the rotary motor was build to take the place of a piston, that will never happen piston will always be a way better the rotary. i dont see any rotary in nascar they would be done in 2 laps. i dont see them in formula1. lamans i wonder if they got banned because the car was under weight limit. like i say you can love it or hate it. i hate it and there is no way more bang for your buck 20b versus 2jz never you get more for what you pay. and a 2jz with 800rwhp will last.

 

the 1jz is lighter then a 20b hell the 2jz is lighter then the 20b. people need the do there research rotary motors are not light man.

 

No offense man, but all (most of) your arguments are as patman said "exercise in ignorance"

Could you just reread that and show yourself what you embellished to justify dumping your 20b build?

The main reason somebody would go 20b is for exclusivity and sound IMO (as long as you care about rotaries).

Obviously all motors are "tuner" sensitive, rotaries just a little bit more so because it requires a "working knowledge/understanding" of what you're dealing with and what is happening. Most tuners would look at a rotary and ask why it has four spark plugs (or 6 in this case, lol).

Rotary engines are more prone to detonation because of the way the flamefront travels and the immense EGT's that are seen in some turbo applications.

Rotaries just require a LITTLE more common sense and attention to detail.

_______

" 13b 20b the more rotors the crapier the motor more seals more chances of blowing up"
I lol'd, this just doesn't have any reasoning behind it other than "more"

"the rotary motor was build to take the place of a piston, that will never happen piston will always be a way better the rotary. i dont see any rotary in nascar they would be done in 2 laps"
So much BS and ignorance in these few lines. I don't believe it was ever built to "take the place" of the reciprocating engine as it was near perfected by the time mazda even started to develop consumer applications. Besides, Mazda doesn't own it, it's called "Wankel" for a reason. Also, perfect case in point about your ignorant claims to reliability, why do you not see a rotary in nascar? Maybe it might have to do something with the rules or maybe that mazda realizes how much of a pathetic sport it is. Maybe mazda proved their point when they got their motor BANNED from LeMans (as mentioned above) when they won overall and were the first Japanese manufacturer to do so.
Here is a quote straight from wikipedia to show your ignorance to the rotary
"The winning car ran without a hitch apart from a blown headlamp bulb and a precautionary rear wheel bearing change on the driver's side of the car, when a regular check during a pit-stop showed it to be overheating slightly."


No offense man, but I think you're overcompensating in this thread, for making a decision you regret. Don't get me wrong, I love ALL motors, I'm just here because I'm interested in rotaries. Again, no offense, I just feel there was a little too much bias in your post.
_______

Kenny I think you should go NA as it's more rewarding. You'll have a motor you that will give you less headaches and less dicking around. You may have to fine tune your setup a little bit more, but a LOT less money on fuel and tuning, (but it will all go to fab work, lol). For me the sound alone would be enough to go PP n/a

As for a platform, I feel a 911 would be well suited, they are a VERY capable chassis and bountiful as well. The rear drive rear engine would give you that little extra bit of traction but would be a little odd to adjust to racing on the track. I'm VERY interested to see what route you guys go. Keep us posted.

 

I have roadraced a 20b turbo for 4 years. Search boumanauto22 for some videos on youtube. We can get 60 hours on it before a rebuild when running 20 psi and 700 hp. That is pretty good for a race engine. BUT not as good as running a 7 litre ls7 corvette motor. The corvette motor isn't as cool or sexy, but makes a ton of torque and should last 300+ hours. There is more reliability,easier drivability, less heat issues, tuning issues, maintenance, ( spark plugs every race), race fuel costs, hopes of finding a good builder, finding a good core, etc, etc.

As a chassis the fd is hard to beat, but I am biased. If i were you I'd buy a proper tube frame chassis, like a trans am car, stick whatever body on it, and add the ls7.

 

Thank you for the opinions everyone and we will post a proper reply after our meeting

We have some ideas to go over

 

Good to hear you guys are seriously collaborating on this. Looking forward to the "official decision"

There are going to be headaches, it is a rotary haha, it's a learning process for everyone (except maybe mazda :P)

 

Lol! That's usually the case with most rotary doubters!

 

???? I heard this I heard that!!!!!! Your gonna come into this type of thread with "I heard knowledge"? What actually experience with rotaries do YOU have? Do you have any actual knowledge and know how to rebuild/tune them? If you don't then you need to go back to the "other engines conversion" threads. You do know we have that section right? You guys never get it do you? These 20b projects are done more for rarity and love for the rotary. Not everyone cares about an easy 800 hp. All your doing is crappinbg all over the OP's thread. You love your 2jz and we love our rotary's. Deal with it!

 

ok the meeting was pretty much tempers flying and opinions all over the place although it did start civilized which is a normal day for us.

Trust me if you met one of these guys in bar you would mostly likely want to beat the **** out them but thats how they are.

so we were narrowing down on the FD chassis but keith made the point that we should go buy a shell then >rolling cage>tubed out chassis.
Mario implied that we should build the chassis to the specs of the engine rather than contort a shell to fit it from scratch with the FD design in mind.

Then mario with his big hole in his face said ok what if we went 26B and instantly Keith jumped on the idea so now its 2 vs 1 and this is where the **** hit the fan.
Mario suggested kicking the project back about 2-3 years and work on building a track ready 26B.

At the sound of this I knew this meant $$$$$ and more $$$$$$ then throw in some more $$$$$$$ for the sake of it.


It was in my head to consider it at one point bt I never thought out loud.
So I decided to entertain this idea and see whats on everyone's mind about it.

Again I told them that there is a possibility of ordering the kit and putting the motor together ourselves along with a professional nudge here and there.

Then I laid out to them the costs of building a transmission , ECU , frabrication and the other little nuts and bolts that might be included but I maybe did not cover everything.

They mistook this as a sign of that we were going with this plan but I shot them down as far as I am considered its a heavy decision to make on the fly.



SO i am going to shoot some emails to KIWE and pineapple racing and see whats the specifics on the quotes and shipping etc.
After that I will consider going that route or put the idea down.
Going this direction will require enormous amount of energy and money to do right ourselves.


We havent decided just trying EXPLORE all the possible routes to iron out the bumps and come to an agreement where is everyone happy and satisfied (not really lol )

 

https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/another-4-rotor-build-788554/page2/

Interesting I better not show Mario and Keith then they will never let the idea go

 

to be honest, when it comes to SERIOUS racing, I don't think the costs are that much different. There are not that many 20Bs out there, and you are bound to break an e-shaft or thick housing every once in a while if you are pushing the engine. With that in mind, I think regardless of the number of rotors, forming a good relationship with a shop that builds these parts will be the key to your success.

The only difference in cost will be the initial build will be 1.5 - 2x the cost for a 4-rotor. There may also be an issue with there being less anecdotal evidence of the 'practical' limits of the engine to let you know what is safe rather than finding out the hard way.