Thanks for the suggestions again guys.

Today I tried again to watch the outputs with the internal scope. Sure enough, ZERO activity at cranking. Pull the CAS out and spin by hand, lights up all the inputs in the scope.


The trigger kit loosk like it can't work with my front cover. Its magnetic pickup like the FD. There is a kit for the FD cover and FC cover. I'm using the FC (20b) cover, however I'm not using the factory 20b pulley, but rather the FD pulley with FD water pump/alt positioning. If I were to install the FC kit, it would not bolt up in the correct location with the magnetic pickups on the FD pulley.

So options are as follows:

1. Add more juice via jump box on top of this new battery and see if its enough cranking
2. Modify the starter with rx8 internals for more cranking speed
or

3. swap to FD front cover and use FD CAS's / swap to FD cover and FFE wheels (expensive)

The only way around this would be to somehow mate a pulley in front of the 20b pulley + FFE trigger wheel to take the belt.

 

Checked that grommet and it looks fine, I can cut the grommet open and check for cracks but it looks great on the outside and rubber is fully intact. Each wire is fully inssulated and intact to each magnet. The inside of the CAS is exceptionally clean.

Its as if the filter/sensativity is blocking the signal for incoming until its strong enough from increased rotation.

 

The ffe kit you need will work fine no matter what pully your running. You zero timing at tdc in the ecu and make both marks on the pully and your good.

 

Just been through a similar issue with a customersmegasquirt. Almost identical symptoms. Ended up being 2 un suppressed plugs(I use cheap start up plugs and normally no issues) that were putting noise back up through grounding plane. Could spin cas over by hand and good clean scope output but as soon as cranking off starter motor was know go. Thought I'd mention it as it was so frustrating that it was something so simple and under Normal circumstances isn't a issue.

 

That is good news, but I'm not seeing how that's possible. The FC kit bolts onto the 20b/FC main pulley, which faces inwards towards the hub and does not have enough thickness to drive the belt and is also much larger in diameter then the FD pulley.

If I use the FD trigger kit, then the accompanying magnets wont bolt to the front cover as the 20b front cover has the cylinder for the CAS in the way.

Maybe its possible to bolt the 20b pulley on first, then bolt on the FFE trigger wheel, and then bolt the FD pulley onto that assembly, essentially sandwiching the trigger wheel?

 

Thanks for your input. It does sound identical!

What do you mean by "unsuppressed plugs"? I'm using stock BUR7 and 9's for start-up with cut-to-length taylor 8mm wires fastened to the plug using dielectric grease.

The coils sit along the top of the motor with a bracket holding them in place. Coils are grounded to the rotor housings.

The CAS wiring runs under the UIM, over the coils and behind the alternator over to the CAS. The wiring is shielded all the way the connector at the CAS during this route.

What can I do to eliminate or discover the possibility of ground noise?

Also, my ECU is grounded to an unpainted area on the floorboard near the ECU. Maybe this should be grounded to the motor?

 

My Haltech was grounded to the chassis next to the ECU so I don't think grounding to the block will correct your issue.

I know you mentioned the CAS wiring is shielded but your routing path runs near every possible emi source... I am setup just like yours using the 20B CAS, FD pully with CAS wiring ran along the spark plug side of the block, over the trans through the firewall on the pass side. I didn't have starting issues and my CAS wiring wasn't even shielded! So due to a poor wiring job by the P/O I'm gonna completely rewire the car. I also plan on using the FFE Hall kit but have to figure out how to mount the 20B oil pan when using an FD front cover. I hope you get it figured out bro if you haven't already check out the link below.

http://fullfunctioneng.com/info/Hall%20vs%20VR.pdf

 

Sorry when I said un suppressed was meaning resistive. BUR are so that's not the issue then. I had 2x BUR plugs and 2x old Egv . other thing I was told to check from a Autosparky was the starter motor as if if it starts polling it can emit alot of electrical noise and wreck havoc on electronics. Generally happens to tired starters. Just another Avenue to check

The inbuilt scope will show up any noise on trigger signal by way of irregular/erratic pattern.
I believe you mentioned you have a good clean pattern on scope so hmm... That would indicate ecu is getting a good trigger.

 

Awesome info you guys,

I'm going to go back over the CAS wiring tonight. I suspect that I wired the CAS ground to the wrong signal ground! Based on these inputs, I'm fairly certain there has to be a wiring mistake I've overlooked. CAS works outside the block, but not inside the block...sounds like a grounding problem.


Thank you guys for the input on this project. It will run and I will post much needed videos soon!

And once again, can't express how much help Andy and Elliot at Adaptronic have been with this situation. I know the car isn't performing as expected just yet, but I'm certain it will get there. Hopefully this isssue will be knocked out tonight and this machine will be cruising the streets!

 

I have a feeling tonight is the night.

 

Well, the wiring is correct to the CAS. For some reason its just not sending outputs to the ecu, and when it spins fast enough the outputs are not consistent.

Probably should have tried this earlier, but Im going to swap in an FC CAS tonight.

 

any chance the issue is the ig or the ecu power circuit dropping out during cranking ?

 

Finally, the CAS issue is resolved. The car should be starting on it's own soon enough

Turns out that the original positive wiring had way too much resistance. Voltage drop looked fine with Multimeter, grounds checked out; I even added extra 0 gauge grounds from Transmission to Chassis. The wiring is 2ga copper from + terminal into a kill switch at the dash, out to the fuse box with 4ga wire and then down to the starter with factory harness.

Check out this badass in-built sope that we used to diagnose the trigger issue. Notice the lack of trigger response to the Sine waves from the CAS on the first screenshot. I estimate the motor must have been turning under 150rpm. To a new ear, the 20b firing order makes the cranking speed sound faster than reality.

I went to Home Depot and purchased 2/0 copper wires and ran a direct line from the positive to the starter. This time there are no fuses or switches to add resistance. Hit the key and BOOM 260rpm and strong signals finally! I used to think my 13b had hot starting difficulty because of compression on RA seals. It was definitely the cranking speed all along. I can't believe how much stronger it cranks after owning the car for 10 years. Check out the square wave consistancy on the second screenshot

I must say that this has nothing to do with Adaptronic as some may have suspected. The ECU may have been filtering out the lower cranking speed signals but now it seems to be working fine.

Andy has been tremendous, helping to diagnose the issue. Lighting fast email response. In my opinion, customer service is number one importance and these guys have it right.

Definitely a silly issue that I should have caught earlier, but another valuable lesson learned.

Tonight we'll try turning on the fuel and giving it a run!

 

Yes!! excellent! Good to hear!

 

Great news!.

 

Monsterbox, for Christ sakes! Turn on the damn car already lol. And do a video this time!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iKJ...ature=youtu.be

Here's the poor quality quick video from the first startup 2 weeks ago

Since the video, exhaust leaks, intercooler piping etc has been finished, hopefully have quality one soon !

 

thumbs up team A !

 

Fired the car up on starter fluid, switched over to fuel and it ran at 1.5k rpms nice and even!!

I found out that the timing was wayyyyy off.

The stock pulley is on the hub. The motor is aligned to the right side mark, -5 btdc (5 atdc). The CAS was dropped in with the cover off and made sure to align the teeth according to the dots on the side. Pictures on the web vs pictures of my alignment show its dropped in correctly.

The ECU was then locked down to -5 BTDC.

Timing light was attached to L1, cranking at 240rpm the light was off by 25* advanced. I had to input an offset of -25* into the ECU to align the light with the marking.

Does this not sound extremely unusual? Im afraid to drive it until I verify that the 20b pulley I have is accurate.

Going to try to verify TDC with a scope/dental mirror in L1 before we test drive it.

 

the CAS drop position pictures of other cars is TOTALLY irrelevant here

drop it in with the -5 mark up and the CAS dots aligned and in the middle of the stab base adjust


you then adjust the timing on decent ecus using the trigger tooth and trigger angle sums

and NOT using the timing trim

clearly you are using someone elses picture for cas,, and anothers for the trigger tooth and angle calculations

you MUST tailor your trigger tooth and angle numbers personally to that engine so that the timing lock is at -5,, and the light and pulley agree

it aint no microtech where it is for dummies and has fixed trigger and angle settings

clearly you have to add ( or subtract ) that 25 from the trigger angle number

if the number drops below 45 then you have to select the next trigger tooth and redo the math so the trigger angle ends up as 45- 90 degrees

PS

you pull the fuel pump fuse and do this while cranking and you will hurt nothing
( assuming you fixed the crank speed and voltage bug )

 

bumpstart,

The CAS was stabbed in with the dots aligned correctly. The -5 mark on the pulley was aligned to the pin on the motor. Trigger OFFSET was set to -25 to zero in the timing, this function applies to the entire timing. Everything was done exactly as you stated. The timing was verified w fuel off. Its just odd that having the CAS aligned to the factory marks on the bottom would yield timing 25* off.

Thanks,

Zach

 

the fact it was 25 degrees screams that you and or the original guy who proposed the trigger timing numbers have the CAS dropped in one tooth different to each other,, and the other guy used a genuine TDC as a datum

each tooth moves things 30 degrees,, hence 30 - 5 = 25 degrees difference in your setup

if the CAS dropped back one more tooth,, then timing will be spot on

neither is wrong or right.. you move the trigger offset to suit the CAS position and confirm with timing lock and light

both will work ,, the only trick is leaving ( at least in terms of motec and haltech )
that minimum window of at least 45 degrees in the trigger angle so the ECU can have scope to advance the timing

 

Excellent news thanks!

 

Well, I'm still suspecting there's something strange with the timing.

Pulled the CAS restabbed aligning the dots perfectly again today. Sure enoughthe timing light is 1.5inched to the left until I subtract -25*

Car starts right away which is great. AFR is between 12.5-13.0 but rpms are rough under 2k and middle manifold runner starts glowing red. Loud backfiring and overall rough sounding even though inj and ign outoutpus and timing look good.

Plugs are new and firing on all 6. Pulled UIM to check inj and ign wiring, all is correct. MAP sensor is reading correctly.

Who knows at this point lol.

 

If you have back firing and the #2 runner is hot, its not timed properly. At this point you're only checking timing of #1, so #2 and #3 could be off. My advice is to mark the pulley at 120° increments from the #1reference and then check to see if #2 and #3 are actually in time. With what you describe, at the least, #2 is not.