RETed

Oh, so I guess *retrofitting* a trigger wheel *and* magnetic pick-ups has nothing to do with this, especially since some of the other can handle the stock ignition system with very little fuss...



-Ted

RETed

Hmmm...split trailing based *only* on RPM an "unfamiliarity"?
You do know that Mazda programmed a true 3D (RPM and load) on the split timing maps, right?

Just one of the "inferiority" of the Microtech EMS...


-Ted

RETed

Now, this can get out-of-hand if any of you have seen the EMS debates...

Bottom line is that there are very few units that can competently control a 20B.&nbsp This includes being able to control what Mazda had designed into the stock 20B ECU which includes:&nbsp fuel maps, ignition maps, split trailing maps.&nbsp This necessitates 6 discrete ignition channels, with varying split ignition versus RPM and load.

I can criticise almost all the EMS units out there - trust me, we tried to do our homework when it comes to picking an EMS for the 20B project car (stress *street* vehicle) at K2RD.&nbsp What we saw as negatives...

Electromotive - use their trigger wheel and mag pick-ups/why not use the stock CAS?&nbsp TEC3 wasn't out yet, so I have very little info on the TEC3 specifically.

MoTeC - NONE of their (single chassis) units have 6 discrete ignition channels; cost difference is significant

Microtech - cannot do 3D split trailing; resolution is poor in certain maps

AEM - was not available

Haltech - no single chassis able to output 6 discrete ignition channels

In the end, we opted for the Haltech E6K + IG5 combo.&nbsp Yes, it's clunky, but the end-product would work.&nbsp Additional outputs did not hurt, and we were very familiar with tuning procedures.&nbsp Price was nice, as we paid equivalent to one entry-level (M4Pro) MoTeC unit.&nbsp The Haltechs ran off the stock CAS (granted, we "needed" a pair of MSD 8509's), so ignition "wiring" was very minimal.

I agree with Kurgan that Haltech quality looks suspect.&nbsp I've seen too many "failures", but always cross my fingers we didn't run into any problems.&nbsp We actually though we blew the Haltech's up at one point and got them check'd and OK'd with Del at Haltech USA (that took several weeks, but that's another long story).

The E11 sounds promising, but I can understand the frustration with the current "quality" problems.&nbsp Right now, it's the "best" option I see given the attractive price under $2,000US for the performance (on a 20B).&nbsp The only other option I see is the AEM unit, which has not been released yet.&nbsp MoTeC has no plans on releasing a unit that would fit our needs - we've contacted them numerous times begging them to build one.




-Ted

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

thats a moot point, your not using the stock ignition system on a 20b, it is like a trailing fc coil, but with 3 toggles.

mike

vosko

iTrader: (4)

i bought a tec III 6/12 setup to run a 20B... because i thought i wanted to put one in my TII... just recently sold it to a guy with a BMW M3.... it seems to be a great system.... if i need another EMS i would probably go with electromotive. i had problems with my haltech also. atleast now it works

10sec rx7

The people dont know how to tune its as simple as that, my car runs perfect when it is cold and do the cars that i have tuned myself, they all start first time when cold and idle and drive fine when cold.

Dale

Evil Aviator

Like everything else, you need to be careful when reading the propaganda literature. For example, the Wolf and Motec literature lists a 3-rotor function for their EMS. They also list a rotary timing split function. What they don't list is that the EMS cannot do both at the same time. I have a feeling that this is the same case in that link that rpm_pwr listed. It is always best to talk with a sales representative before you spend your money on an EMS, as it is impossible to list all the details on one simple spec sheet.

Also, Wolf originally intended to make an add-on module to run split timing on a 3-rotor. This never went into production due to prototype problems and lack of a customer base. I can't say that I blame them, as they probably would have sold less than 50 units in 10 years.

RETed

Nah, I'm talking about Electromotive's requirement to use their 60-2 ignition trigger wheel with their pick-up's.&nbsp The wheel needs to be mounted "true" and concentric with the magnetic pick-up's or else the ignition system is inconsistent.&nbsp I've heard a lot of previous owners/racers get pissed off this ignition trigger system being "fouled" by debris being blown into the engine bay.

The Haltech can use the stock CAS.&nbsp The Electromotive defendants all cry better resolution with their triggering system - there is nothing that prevents the Haltech from using the same 60-2 trigger wheel and pick-up's to gain the same resolution?&nbsp It's definite that it's not the other way around.

The ignition system "downstream" of the EMS is basically all the same - it's a bunch of coils fired by signals off the EMS.&nbsp Electromotive requires THEIR coils to be used, while Haltech can use almost any aftermarket coils on the market.


-Ted

rxeng

The 20b's rotors are phased 120 deg apart not 180deg so setting it up like that will cause a major mushroom cloud to come out from under your bonnet!!!!!!!!!
The microtech will run a 20b properly.It has 6 coil drivers & 6 injector drivers so you can adjust leading & trailing split as well as run staged injectors the same as mazda do.
The microtech will run with the factory crank angle sensor....without a single modification,as well as all the other factory sensors(water,ait temp,tps etc).It comes with a base map from the factory also so you can start,run & drive the car once the install has been completed.
The LTX12 comes complete with 6 bosch coils included in the price of $1495 aus which works out to be around $800 US.
I have a 20B powered FC in my workshop now which has an LTX12 on it & have fitted & tuned the microtech on other 20b engines & all work fine. the racetrack results also prove that they can sure make the HP on a 20B.
If you guys need to know any more about the microtech,don't hesitate to drop me a line,i'd be glad to help.
RE gards
Jon
RX Engineering
Newcastle Australia

HWO

the E11 is out, E-mail or ring up Matt (HITman) and talk to him, he's a great guy and will tell you it like it is. I beleive he is also in the process of putting an E11 into his custom 3 rotor.

AJC13B

In the 3 years I have had a Haltech on my car, I have had 2 problems that were factory related.

1. Incorrect wiring diagram in the manual (I got build no 12 of the first E6K batch, the wiring diagram was corrected)

2. When using a battery charger, the ECU fritzed because I didnt disconnect it. One of the fuses or something was rated a little lower and it was soon fixed (for free) and as far as I know, all ECUs had the heavier duty fuse or whatever installed from then on.

Any other problem I have had were with the install of the E6K (I did it myself).

If you pass up the E11 simply because you have had bad dealings with Haltech USA, your an idiot.

cement

well i have a suggestion put a frigging carby on the thing ,u have more hope of finding someone to tune it properly then an ECU from what ive heard in the states

zyounker

Well, if you could read, you would see it was a problem with HALTECH AUS! Learn to read before insulting people..




-Zach

Kurgan

I specifically stated it was with Australia, not US.

Are you speaking with first hand experience, or just more net kiddy wisdom when touting the E11 on such a grandeur status?

Oh, and btw, it's "You're an idiot."

AJC13B

Zach - Haltech USA, Australia, Zimbabwe....does it really matter? The point was that if you are willing to pass up something that can do what you need, simply because you have had issues in the past with an older model, you are stupid.

Kurgan - As per above.

Where did I 'tout' the E11? And you are right, I have no knowledge of the E11, my supposed 'touting' comes from rumours and hear say Have I mentioned previously that a freinds RX3 had a pre release E11 for testing purposes and I am good friends with HITman and he lives 10km up the road from me? Yep, clueless is I....

Zach & Kurgan - You are both children if the best attempted insult you can come up with is attacking someones comprehension skills.

zyounker

Well, i wasn't trying to insult you.. I was saying you should read before you insult others...


And, the fact that you have no CLUE as to what is going on then you should just stop there.


The problem is not with the past ECU, it is with the company. ok? enough, that i would almost sell off my e6k, if it wouldn't work fine for my car. but it will work, and i will be keeping it.. at least for now.

-Zach

zyounker

The thread was asking if there where other alternatives... It didn't ask your opinion on if we are idiots for not wanting to run the E11..

Kurgan

I don't remember trying to insult you... this isn't the lounge or Club Si. However, when you call someone an idiot, do you not expect some retaliation in some form or another?

I don't want an E11... if Haltech gave me one, I'd take it. I'll be damned if I'm going to toss more money their way...

Back on track. Looks like the only alternatives to a Haltech on a 3rotor are the Microtech and the TecIII. The Microtech is about 1/3 of the cost of the TECIII, but the TecIII has more features and is a more advanced setup.

I haven't let cost be preemptive in this project yet... but this one is a tough decision. At this point, I think I may be going with the TECIII for the sole reason of the wideband data logging and self tuning that Electromotive offers.

Is there a Microtech or an Electromotive forum on the net anywhere?

FarNorthMotoring

iTrader: (2)

I use to go over the Shiv Pathiks site. www.vishnutuning.com mostly scoobies and Miatas though. But most people there are hardcore Electromotive people and couple of Techs from Electromotive hang out there.

zyounker

Hey, shiv is pretty cool.. he does alot of WRX stuff in the US... He has a pretty good rep in that scene...


-Zach

Kurgan

I'm sure most of us remember Trey Cobb from when he was at RP. I wonder how his scooby business is doing?

seems I made it get off track again

rpm_pwr

My mistake I was in a hurry. I just went through the menus selected 20b and look at the split timing. It doesn't actually run 6 ignition outputs - you're right. Shame, they're the nicest guys, I emailed one of their engineers the timing trace of a 3KGT we we're having problems with and he sent a fix the next day.

If only apexi made a PowerFC for the Cosmo hey?
-pete

Evil Aviator

That's what I thought. Like I posted earlier, you can't possibly read into a simple EMS spec sheet and know everything about the system - that's what good engineering support is for. Thanks for checking, and it is good to know that they run a tight shop. It looks like that EMS would still work for those who want to run a 20B which doesn't need to pass emissions requirements.

BTW, if Apexi made a PFC for the Cosmo, they probably wouldn't sell it in America.

AJC13B

Meh, 2 people out of thousands of happy customers. Im sure Haltech are going to miss you both...

And its pure stubborness if you would put a possible inferior product on your car because you have issues with another company that provides a, IMHO, superior product.

My 2c, Im out of this one

Evil Aviator

You can add me to that list. The ancient Haltech DOS software wouldn't work on my laptop, so I bought a Wolf3D. Three of my friends also liked the Wolf better, so they bought it, too. Let's see, that's 2 + me + 3 = 6 people that Haltech missed so far, and I'm sure that there are many more. Hopefully Haltech will do better with the E11.

The "product" also includes support. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of the EMS manufactures don't understand this, nor do you. Support is very lacking in the US, but I guess you would have to live here to understand that.

BTW, thank you for not letting the personal attacks get out of hand.