Eccentric Shafts: OEM vs. Xtreme Rotaries vs. KIWI RE?
08-17-07, 10:47 AM
#1
Eccentric Shafts: OEM vs. Xtreme Rotaries vs. KIWI RE?
So does anyone have an experience/information on the use of a two piece eccentric shaft versus the stock OEM unit? Ran across two units that caught my eye, one from http://www.kiwi-re.com/wwd_showroom_cat1_1.php and the other from www.xtremerotaries.com (scroll down about 1/2 page).
Besides costing more (about $2,100 for the KIWI unit and $3,000 for the Xtreme Rotaries one), would these in theory be better than a balanced OEM one?
Thanks for the input.
Besides costing more (about $2,100 for the KIWI unit and $3,000 for the Xtreme Rotaries one), would these in theory be better than a balanced OEM one?
Thanks for the input.
08-17-07, 11:15 AM
#2
rebreaking things
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Lots of people use the stock shaft in excess of 650 rwhp. Mandeville said the key to longevity is that it is dynamically balanced properly. This is critical to the bearing life. He also said there are only a handful of people that do it properly. People send him 3 and 4 rotor rotating assemblies from all over the world. He recently told me about a rotating assembly that was 'balanced' by another shop and was a total mess. He said my late model D-series rotating assembly can be safely run at 10,000rpms with a sufficient oil pump. He said the bigger factor is block flex.
Not sure I see a limitation that you should be concerned about. Why are you asking about this?
Not sure I see a limitation that you should be concerned about. Why are you asking about this?
08-18-07, 08:52 AM
#4
Senior Member
OK, I can't tell you which but one of the aftermarket shafts was so good that Mazda USA sell them as a factory race part since supply from Japan has dried up.
Back in 2005, both companies sent demo shafts to Mazda. Only one was approved.
Personally, if I wanted the best quality shaft for my engine. Price would not be the deciding factor.
REgards
Back in 2005, both companies sent demo shafts to Mazda. Only one was approved.
Personally, if I wanted the best quality shaft for my engine. Price would not be the deciding factor.
REgards
08-18-07, 11:48 AM
#5
^Price isn't the issue for me. Don't get me wrong on this, I don't spend just to spend. What I mean is I don't mind paying extra IF something will work. Not sure the shaft is worth the extra money. I'm not running over 700 WHP so I don't know if it matters.
That's what I'm asking. Does this make a difference in a street build and at what level?
That's what I'm asking. Does this make a difference in a street build and at what level?
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08-18-07, 08:03 PM
#8
Lots of people use the stock shaft in excess of 650 rwhp. Mandeville said the key to longevity is that it is dynamically balanced properly. This is critical to the bearing life. He also said there are only a handful of people that do it properly. People send him 3 and 4 rotor rotating assemblies from all over the world. He recently told me about a rotating assembly that was 'balanced' by another shop and was a total mess. He said my late model D-series rotating assembly can be safely run at 10,000rpms with a sufficient oil pump. He said the bigger factor is block flex.
Not sure I see a limitation that you should be concerned about. Why are you asking about this?
Not sure I see a limitation that you should be concerned about. Why are you asking about this?
David, to just make one further point, while e-shaft flex is a concern at the 9,000+ rpm range (that's where the concern BEGINS), the problem is the HOUSINGS themselves begin to flex around the 8,000 - 8,500 rpm range. Remember that due to the longer length of the 20B block, it's characteristics are NOT the same as a 13B (which many often overlook).
Also, from the info I've received (all from professional 3 and 4 rotor builders & racers), what most ppl deem as "sufficient" oil lubrication in a 20B making considerable power is ghastly inadequate. So that's probably what I'd make your primary concern
Jeff Bruce makes the parts for Kiwi, and his e-shafts are also sold through Mazda(comp) as OEM replacement. He also makes two- and three-piece shafts as well. But keep in mind that (as CMonakar hinted to), the center bearings on multi-piece shafts tend to see more wear, and as such can leave ya tearin down the block regardless... So it's def. not the end-all be-all...
~Ramy
08-18-07, 09:29 PM
#9
As usual, CMonakar's right on the money. And not cuz he's some super smart fellow (although I'm sure he is regardless). Rather, it's b/c he was able to inherit a *wealth* of info from another rotorhead who'd done all the research on the 20B route too. Add to that the wealth of info CMonakar's been through *himself* w/ his 20B fiasco (hehe) and you can see why if it's been asked, he probably knows the answers
David, to just make one further point, while e-shaft flex is a concern at the 9,000+ rpm range (that's where the concern BEGINS), the problem is the HOUSINGS themselves begin to flex around the 8,000 - 8,500 rpm range. Remember that due to the longer length of the 20B block, it's characteristics are NOT the same as a 13B (which many often overlook).
Also, from the info I've received (all from professional 3 and 4 rotor builders & racers), what most ppl deem as "sufficient" oil lubrication in a 20B making considerable power is ghastly inadequate. So that's probably what I'd make your primary concern
Well you're in luck, because I can hehe.
Jeff Bruce makes the parts for Kiwi, and his e-shafts are also sold through Mazda(comp) as OEM replacement. He also makes two- and three-piece shafts as well. But keep in mind that (as CMonakar hinted to), the center bearings on multi-piece shafts tend to see more wear, and as such can leave ya tearin down the block regardless... So it's def. not the end-all be-all...
~Ramy
David, to just make one further point, while e-shaft flex is a concern at the 9,000+ rpm range (that's where the concern BEGINS), the problem is the HOUSINGS themselves begin to flex around the 8,000 - 8,500 rpm range. Remember that due to the longer length of the 20B block, it's characteristics are NOT the same as a 13B (which many often overlook).
Also, from the info I've received (all from professional 3 and 4 rotor builders & racers), what most ppl deem as "sufficient" oil lubrication in a 20B making considerable power is ghastly inadequate. So that's probably what I'd make your primary concern
Well you're in luck, because I can hehe.
Jeff Bruce makes the parts for Kiwi, and his e-shafts are also sold through Mazda(comp) as OEM replacement. He also makes two- and three-piece shafts as well. But keep in mind that (as CMonakar hinted to), the center bearings on multi-piece shafts tend to see more wear, and as such can leave ya tearin down the block regardless... So it's def. not the end-all be-all...
~Ramy
So the 20 E-shafts Mazda Comp is rumored to have must be the Jeff Bruce E-shaft...and is the price really $6000.00 each? The guys @ Mazdatrix told me, last time I was there that, Mazda had the Thick center Iron (quanity unknown, new tooling, re-engineered)and 20 (NEW tooling, newly Engineered) E-shafts... I was told the Thick center iron was going to be $2400.00 each...
08-18-07, 09:47 PM
#10
Dude I dunno who the heck told ya they were $6K. The price I was quoted was a bit cheaper than Mazda(Comp). But as always, that's always based on who you know, and if you go directly to the source vs. via a middleman (or two, or three lol).
Also, the regular e-shaft (which like you heard has been beefed up a bit) is very different than the more expensive multi-piece e-shafts that Jeff makes. So don't confuse the pricing on those (although not even the 3-piece units were anywhere NEAR $6K).
Also, the regular e-shaft (which like you heard has been beefed up a bit) is very different than the more expensive multi-piece e-shafts that Jeff makes. So don't confuse the pricing on those (although not even the 3-piece units were anywhere NEAR $6K).
08-18-07, 11:33 PM
#11
Jeff Bruce makes the parts for Kiwi, and his e-shafts are also sold through Mazda(comp) as OEM replacement. He also makes two- and three-piece shafts as well. But keep in mind that (as CMonakar hinted to), the center bearings on multi-piece shafts tend to see more wear, and as such can leave ya tearin down the block regardless... So it's def. not the end-all be-all...
~Ramy
08-19-07, 11:29 PM
#13
Also, it's kinda weird cuz Guru (Xtreme Rotaries) was supposed to be coming out w/ their 3-piece. I guess since Jeff beat 'em to it, they didn't bother...
This is interesting news, how do you get in contact with jeff bruce on the pricing and such of the 3 piece 3-rotor shafts?
Info@FDNewbieImports.com.~Ramy
FDNewbie Imports
08-20-07, 07:52 AM
#14
^Ramy, what's the difference between your three piece shaft and and a "new, old stock" OEM one? Basically a new one from a D series design? Also, this has been posted in another thread but should the numbers on an engine's eccentric shaft match the numbers on the rest of the engine components? My C series engine components all have matching numbers on all of hardware EXCEPT the e shaft. Does this mean the e shaft was swapped out? Can I use the e shaft number to verify what series engine it is from?
08-20-07, 11:37 AM
#15
Jeff Bruce's...not mine
One's one piece (OEM), and the other is actually 3 pieces (designed to eliminate e-shaft flex at higher rpms, which again, isn't really a concern unless you're building a race motor that will rev that high and is built to withstand the BLOCK flex you'll experience prior to having to worry about SHAFT flex).
I'll defer that is a question to the pros...ppl like DMRH who were messing w/ 20Bs while I was still in elementary school 
~Ramy
three piece shaft and and a "new, old stock" OEM one? Basically a new one from a D series design?
Also, this has been posted in another thread but should the numbers on an engine's eccentric shaft match the numbers on the rest of the engine components? My C series engine components all have matching numbers on all of hardware EXCEPT the e shaft. Does this mean the e shaft was swapped out? Can I use the e shaft number to verify what series engine it is from?
~Ramy
08-20-07, 01:04 PM
#16
Jeff Bruce's...not mine
One's one piece (OEM), and the other is actually 3 pieces (designed to eliminate e-shaft flex at higher rpms, which again, isn't really a concern unless you're building a race motor that will rev that high and is built to withstand the BLOCK flex you'll experience prior to having to worry about SHAFT flex).
I'll defer that is a question to the pros...ppl like DMRH who were messing w/ 20Bs while I was still in elementary school
~Ramy
One's one piece (OEM), and the other is actually 3 pieces (designed to eliminate e-shaft flex at higher rpms, which again, isn't really a concern unless you're building a race motor that will rev that high and is built to withstand the BLOCK flex you'll experience prior to having to worry about SHAFT flex).
I'll defer that is a question to the pros...ppl like DMRH who were messing w/ 20Bs while I was still in elementary school
~Ramy
I am pretty sure you meant to say OEM 2 piece design..the factory OEm mazda shaft is already 2 piece.... And Ramy, you said you have one of the 3 piece Jeff Bruce e-shafts...right.. can you post pics and a price for it?? I want to know how much the 3 piece shaft cost..
08-24-07, 06:46 AM
#17
Senior Member
Just to clear things up a little.
Precision engineering shafts are sold (sometimes) via Kiwi-RE
Xtreme rotaries shafts are sold via any "GURU" outlet
The comment about the Mazdaspeed shafts are actually the "Precision" ones is interesting because its certainly different to what I have been told & researched.
I'll go back to the source now & double-check. I would have stayed quiet if the "Guru" name was let out of the hat but since the wrong?? answer popped up. I'm forced to check it out now.
I'll get back once this question is cleared up. As I dont think Steve Sanders would be moving both compainies shafts
REgards
Precision engineering shafts are sold (sometimes) via Kiwi-RE
Xtreme rotaries shafts are sold via any "GURU" outlet
The comment about the Mazdaspeed shafts are actually the "Precision" ones is interesting because its certainly different to what I have been told & researched.
I'll go back to the source now & double-check. I would have stayed quiet if the "Guru" name was let out of the hat but since the wrong?? answer popped up. I'm forced to check it out now.
I'll get back once this question is cleared up. As I dont think Steve Sanders would be moving both compainies shafts
REgards
08-24-07, 10:26 AM
#18
And Ramy, you said you have one of the 3 piece Jeff Bruce e-shafts...right.. can you post pics and a price for it?? I want to know how much the 3 piece shaft cost..
I was under the assumption they were the same entity? The website used to say Guru Motorsports, but a year or two ago (roughly) it said Xtreme Rotaries, and the URL even directed to that. So again, I assumed they were one and the same?
The comment about the Mazdaspeed shafts are actually the "Precision" ones is interesting because its certainly different to what I have been told & researched.
I'll go back to the source now & double-check. I would have stayed quiet if the "Guru" name was let out of the hat but since the wrong?? answer popped up. I'm forced to check it out now.
I'll get back once this question is cleared up. As I dont think Steve Sanders would be moving both compainies shafts
REgards
I'll get back once this question is cleared up. As I dont think Steve Sanders would be moving both compainies shafts
REgards
~Ramy
08-31-07, 07:25 PM
#19
My bad
I'm traveling right now, so pics I can't do. Shoot me an email for price plz.
I was under the assumption they were the same entity? The website used to say Guru Motorsports, but a year or two ago (roughly) it said Xtreme Rotaries, and the URL even directed to that. So again, I assumed they were one and the same?
I was told that as a direct quote, and was shown documentation. It was at least a year ago though. I'm sure I have the info somewhere (also at home).
I hope I didn't confuse you? Again, I was assuming Guru & Xtreme were the same thing.
~Ramy
I'm traveling right now, so pics I can't do. Shoot me an email for price plz.
I was under the assumption they were the same entity? The website used to say Guru Motorsports, but a year or two ago (roughly) it said Xtreme Rotaries, and the URL even directed to that. So again, I assumed they were one and the same?
I was told that as a direct quote, and was shown documentation. It was at least a year ago though. I'm sure I have the info somewhere (also at home).
I hope I didn't confuse you? Again, I was assuming Guru & Xtreme were the same thing.
~Ramy
Thanks BG
Does this mean I'll need to go the Kiwi RE or Xtreme Rotaries route? How about center bearing assemblies?
08-31-07, 08:01 PM
#23
Not tauting you at all.. I had that one other new shaft and I held out for you as long as I could.. The guy that bought it from me was Calling me and emailing me 5 to 10 times a day about it.. most persistant person I have ever come into contact with.. I simply got tired of him bugging me about it...
I can set you up with a New center bearing/stay gear as I have a few of those left...
08-31-07, 08:07 PM
#24
David @ this point you should pick up a spare motor for parts so that you will have spares for your setup... The motors are drying up in Japan and soon we will see the price for a good longblock jump up a few thousand.. I am predicting in the next (12 to 48 months) the price for a good compression C or D code to be retailing for $5500 to $6500. This is the main reason I have dropped stocking/buying S4/S5 TII and FD Jspecs from my vendor in Japan. I have recently invested a huge part of my savings in 20B's. I doubt I will corner the market but I will not be left out either... And I will never have to source discontinued parts or have to shell out big money for the aftermarket stuff.. Something you may want to consider yourself.. I keep preaching this to the guys who are running 3 rotor engines.. some have listened some have thumbed theirs nose at me...
08-31-07, 08:08 PM
#25
And as I mentioned, feel free to email me for a price.
David, if Japan2LA doesn't sell you his, lemme know. I have a spare brand new one laying around at home as well...but I'd wanna make sure I can get another one to replace it first haha.
~Ramy