Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Iv been saving for the past 3 years to build my car. Its a '94 FD, stock reman w/ bolt on's...iv made it a long time on this motor and have refused to go single, increase boost etc as Im waiting until I have ALL OF THE FUNDS to do something completely.


I wish to build a 3rotor supercar, but I am not interested in the downtime of projects like david haye's. Whether its money issue or shop error, it seems that these are the two main culprits in preventing the completion of a swap.


So, First and foremost I want to make sure I have MORE than enough cash, in liquid availability, to fund everything. Secondly, I wish to do the installation on my own, in order to understand the assembly for future maintanence.

I'm planning on reaching around 45k-50k in available funds by next year this time, but I want to project/predict my goals correctly in order to avoid under/overestimating my possibilities.



Goal: 800+hp, 700+ on pump+ AI, reliable drivetrain

My very rough estimates:

Late Series 20b - ~ $5,000
Defined autoworks rebuild - ~$3,000
Streetport, balanced, studs, RA seals -~ $2500
Defined autoworks kit - ~$2,000
Defined autoworks manifold - ~$1600
GT42R or equivalent -~ $1600
Fuel Sys (dual pumps, stainless lines, large injectors, custom rail kit) -~ $1500
ECU and tuning - Haltech PS2K and wiring, plus new engine wiring harness mazda -~ $4,000
T56 Transmission Conversion and Triple Plate Clutch, stronger rear end -~ $4000

Extras:
Intercooler Rad Setup Custom Fab Piping, Exhaust - ~$3,000
Water injection - ~$800
Seats, Roll Cage, Interior Work, Gauges ETC - ~$4,000
Pettit Rear Flares, 99 spec exterior, vent hood, paint - ~$7,000
Wheels/Tires - ~$4,500

Transportation Cost, Screwups, misc parts like block off plates etc, bushings for suspension, shipping costs on products, etc....$4,500

This puts the total at $49,000 dollars


Sounds extremely steep, but i'm factoring in tons of cushioning, realistically some of these things should/could cost way less, but I would rather be 110% sure than $45,00-50k would be enough money to make this happen. I DO NOT want to invest this money and wind up finding out i need to spend another $15k to get it finished. To me, this money has taken a very long time to save, and i do NOT want to pull the trigger unless its a done deal that this is a realistic plan to success. Its a total waste if the car does not run, as there hardly any salvage value here.

So what do you guys think?

Also, this would go in order of operations, not going to spend the 10k on tires/bodywork or 5K on tranny/drivetrain unless budgeting has performed successful on the completeed motor swap.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

Maybe you can just buy an FD w/ 20B? We see 'em pop up from time to time..
Otherwise you seem to have a reality-type grasp on the cost of the swap.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Iv considered that, but then again, if i buy someone's setup I wont understand the wiring, little mods here and there, and exactly how it was built. If I build it myself I will be able to maintain the car longer most likely...

But damn, spending 40k to build a car seems rediculous however, its a car w/ every single angle tackled. It should be able to hang at high hp levels w/ reliability and drive-ability.

to_slow

iTrader: (3)

49k is a bit on the low side for a project to your requirements, A good starting point for sure. When searching for a shop to take on this type of project... you will really need to do your homework. From my personal experience with many so called high end rotary shops or shops that talk a big game and cannot deliver at least 50% of the agreed upon job quality/time frame etc.. There are quite a few i have dealt in the past, its sad and mind blowing of what they consider good quality and a finished product.

Every rotary shop out there has there own standards and take on quality work.

Allot are sub par, some are OK and very few are the best. I personalty will not go with any shop that is on this forum for your needs in my pinion. Not talking bad about them, but just don't think they have what it takes to deliver what you are after.

There are to many horror stories out there to take a chance on. Actually some shop make it there full time job, gojng after negative feed back left by um-happy customers to have it remove compliantly from the internet forums, so that there image and happy customer track is 100% good, sad but true.

But yes, do your homework before you take the plunge, it will be a sad day if you are taken for a expensive ride.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i honestly thought it was a high estimate.

and there's several shops on this forum that do quality work. most of mine are budget builds however, so don't think i'm trying to get anything out of this.

he also mentioned doing alot of the work himself, so the shop labor wouldn't be insanely expensive for this build. granted with this also comes the risk of warranty issues.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Estimates look low to me in lots of areas. I would add at least another 10k. Chances are there will be downtime too, regardless if money isn't an issue. Good luck.

Blackadde///

iTrader: (27)

I agree with to_slow and Turblown, some of your areas are really low, but you'll figure this out when you go to check some of them off your list.

One important area I think you missed was suspension. You kinda of grouped it with shipping costs/misc parts for $4500. I spent that alone on coil overs. Anyway, good luck with your build. There's a lot of good info on these boards, but venture out to some of the Australian/PR boards, for more info. Cheers....

t-von

iTrader: (8)

To the OP. I would contact IronMDX. He basically has the 20b set-up your wanting. His project didn't cost him anywhere near your estimate however, his project was 100% DIY. He did EVERYTHING himself. The only way to learn is to DIY but you WILL have to sacrifice some time to learn.

silverfdturbo6port

iTrader: (26)

That is a pretty harsh statement. Shops advertise weather its on the net or on the track so how do u make a statement like that? Banzai and turblown do some pretty top notch work and they specialize in rotarys. cash has to do with everything and customers usually dont have the cash to do things all pretty like every shop would like but what you do is take a look at there personal cars they have built for them selves, that right there is how you tell the men from the boys.
I am not saying this to get the guy to come to me im simply sticking up and pointing out that there are people on here that do great work and love rotarys so much aside from having a shop that they support in any way that they can like paying money (sponsoring) to have a forum like we have here.
Feedback is everything and if you just want to hide in a hole than your image and business will go in the hole with you.
Every customer has there experiences and they have there human right to make any comment they feel or feedback/ horror story they feel. But like any other business u have to treat customers with respect and tend to there every need to keep them happy so u have good feedback and that goes for every job on this PLANET.

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

I think you should start slowly. Get the motor, you commented on you trying it yourself and that's a great idea. Start off with low boost and have fun with the car on a stock tranny.

Make your build an enjoyable one. They way you are starting now seems stressful. It's good to plan and you sound like you have finances in order but most building cars nowadays have more stress than fun with the project from what it seems.

Even better if you have a few friends close to you that can help you with little things. Also, if you are having Defined Auto do some of the work, you might want to consider an Electromotive, I could be wrong but I see a few cars from there running that system.

Anthony

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Thankyou for all of the feedback everyone.


Ultimately, I want to do as much work as possible. I'v built a few cars with some friends, but I'v never done something as extreme as motor swap, with entirely new wiring, ecu.

Thing only thing intimidating me is the wiring. I figure all the fab work should be taken care of with the kit. Doing suspension work, brakes, tranny, engine bolt in, turbos, vac lines, fuel etc...I could easily handle myself.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but besides the I/C, piping, bodywork, there should not be any mandatory fabrication/welding or anything crazy needed w/ the above parts?

But using an electromotive and setting up the igition wiring, making sure that you have good ground spark, etc...putting connectors and wiring up the ECU...this is where I'm worried, and would like a shop for this matter.

silverfdturbo6port

iTrader: (26)

id say go buy a gtr

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

You do not need to have all the funds to begin the project. Having $$40K-$50K saved up does not make the project happen any faster, it just makes it more stressful. Since there are items you will be waiting on, you will be looking at $20K worth of parts that can not be installed because you are waiting for a $500 item to show up. Not to mention this is your first attempt at a 20B conversion so you have no idea what to plan for or in what order.

I will not comment on your budget or choice of parts since this is a DIY build, but you might want to look through one of our documented 20B conversions. It should give you some idea of what you are going to need to plan for. http://www.banzai-racing.com/20B_engine_lg-blk.htm

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

I agree w/ the fact that I do not need to have all that money up front ready to go, however I do not want to start this project thinking 40k will cover it and find out it really costs 80k to get this finished. This is why I want a healthy amount of funds ready to go.

I'm just not understanding what is the most time consuming/costly parts of the build? I just dont see, aside from the parts list, how much more effort/money is needed, what is the most difficult hurdle compared to a 13b?

>>>The defined auto kit provides subframe, motor mounts, chops the manifold, everything needed to bolt the motor in...So to me, dropping the motor in should be no more difficult than a 13b installation

>>>Defined sells an exaust header that fits with their kit, therefore no need to have custom fabrication of one. Bolt on.

>>>Fuel system is same as a 13b build process
>>>suspension, same as 13b process

Only things I can think of that would cause unknown expenditures would be intercooler/rad setup/piping/ ECU Wiring (big one)

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

seeing it from a shop's perspective can skew things, as these types of projects usually involve a fair amount of labor to modify things you constantly can't always write down on paper or remember.

as i said, doing the majority of the labor on your own, assuming you can do the big chunks of it will save alot of that labor time paid out.

yes i'm sure there will be plenty you forgot to add in but i don't foresee it being that far over your estimate. some shops just want to make sure you're getting your money's worth in shiney things but there's also markup, they don't sell you those 3 dozen AN fittings for their own cost or the several hours fitting the lines labor free. indecisiveness also costs alot more than you think so be sure your gameplan is solid. upgrading the driveline and diff now? or later? there's always things we forget. sometimes you just upgrade things as they fail, which isn't necessarily the wrong path, a shop is going to sell you everything you need up front because they don't want to seem incompetent.

keep in mind this would suck up about 1.5 months of labor in a shop(at least! not all shops can just send their best tech to a job for 2 months straight) so keep your schedule open for about a good year to get it done on weekends.

i can kind of see it from both sides, no one wants to spend tons of time building everything for you to have something simple fail so they're going to sell you rotor clearancing, oil mods to the block, upgraded pump system/lines, solid connections for everything to and from the motor, weak points in the driveline, the list goes on and on. when you have this much tied up into something you want everything covered, which generally doubles even some conservative estimates. what's the point of building a supercar if it's on stock suspension after all? eventually you want to build the whole car, that is where it adds up.

you CAN always do things in phases, most shops are going to try and do it all at the same time.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

Lots of good points in here.. Sounds like you've got a long road ahead.

I've kept a journal of my builds, I sketch ideas out, measure, make more notes then carry out the plan the next day (typically).

Keep something else in mind too - ask all of us here (who can tig) what a subframe should look like and you (likely) would get semi varied replies.. So if you decide to go "route a" then make a note of it and keep it handy for that moment when you go "WTF?! why did I do that" on some piece of the car you did 6 months ago.

It's just been really handy to have a mental build-sheet and one on paper too.
Also, try new **** - just because I didn't wire my car the way you did doesn't mean one way was worse. Just get a plan and stick to that plan. :-)

1.962

I also have to agree with some of the statements regarding the cost; it does seem a little low, especially considering all of the areas of modification you would like. Even a more basic, read less encompassing build, could easily fall into the 40K+ range.

I might also suggest that you work on the project in phases if possible, for there are far less variables that change. You can further ensure each change or small group of changes are functioning properly before moving forward. Too many changes at once can increase tracking down an issue, and there will be issues, x^2 or greater of your time or the shop's time.

allrotor93

iTrader: (126)

Just buy the white 94 in the for sale section for $28k...it's my old car

Late d series with new housings