Grizzly

This is what the guy has sent me.

General Info on Rotary Kits

This is a general list of parts available to convert mazda 13b type
engines to 3 or 4 rotor variants ,only the modified parts are
listed as most others are mazda items or are easily fabricated
by a competent engine builder.
All prices are in NZ$ and are ex factory so no allowances for
shipping etc have been made .
NZ customers should note that gst is charged on top of these prices.

1. 3rotor crank assy NZ$2100
2. 4rotor crank assy NZ$3200 (includes rear c/weight)
3. Centre housing modification for 3 or 4 rotor kits NZ$600 (2 req for 4 rotor)
4. Thru bolt set for 3 rotor NZ$175
5. Thru bolt set for 4 rotor NZ$195
6. Dowel set for 3 rotor kit NZ$110
7. Dowel set for 4 rotor kit NZ$130
8. Direct oil feed for 3/4 rotor kits centre housing NZ$250 (2 req for 4rotor)
this mod is not a necessity only an upgrade for the oiling system.

note that the centre housing mod cost is only for the mod ,it does not
include the cost of a std front gear or the housing ,these items esp
the housings vary greatly in price depending on the year/type. They
can be priced on submission of mazda part number of course.

Also available is a centre bearing kit for 13b engines , included is
2 piece crank and the bearing assy fitted to your centre housing NZ$1800

So there it is what do you think?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

ok thats how they build it. i wonder if it would make it harder to mount in the chassis? the 20b is cool cause you can buy mounts

mike

Grizzly

This uses the Stock plates so i would think it will fit ok, Also its smaller, lighter and uses moded 13b bits so parts are not hard to get hold of.

So the only problem i can see is the Fabrication of sump and manifolds.

Grizzly

GUTTED!!! I know a big problem?

The center plate on a 13b is the Primary ports, well the Primarys are small and can only just be made as big as a stock secondry so you would have to run stock ports.

So its back to the 20b idear then! I am a bit P**sed as the Triple mod is 40k lighter than the stock 20b.

now

iTrader: (1)

if you look close at the end you can see
that the front most part of the shaft slides
over the back part just like the stock 20b

matt

Attila the Fun

iTrader: (1)

j9fd3s put it very well. However, let me add and emphasize: buckets of torque. 478 lb./ft. with no interior engine mods and using the stock turbos.

The difference in torque is difficult to describe. One guy who rode with me at Virginia International Raceway said, "It's like the hand of God grabbed you by the butt and shoved you down the track." This is a very good, if somewhat poetic description.

Quote:

I'm well into Drag racing and i also do a few Track days, if i fit a 20b will it help or hinder me?

Financially, it will hinder you.
In terms of straight line acceleration, it will help you.

Someone said:

Quote:

Well, I don't have any experiance with the handeling. (no one here REALLY, does yet)

I do. With Tokico adjustables, Ground Control adjustable coilovers and a custom-fabricated sway bar, it's wonderful. Oh, yeah, the extra-wide wheels and tires help, too.

Quote:

Sorry im in the UK...

Too bad. Normally, I tell folks that they will be bucks ahead to buy my car. By the time you shipped it across the "Big Pond", that might not be true. Take a look at www.cris.com/~Asam/20B.html and let me know, if you're interested.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

"It's like the hand of God grabbed you by the butt and shoved you down the track." This is a very good, if somewhat poetic description.

thats the esteemed david lane, it is how it feels though, it just goes, no waiting for the powerband or the turbo to spool.

mike

Grizzly

Ok if i was to build a 20b what sort of power would i expect to produce on a Extended Port with a Gt40 (Garrett).

I have looked at alot of options and to be honis the easyest route would be to buy a 20b (cosmo) and have a go at the mod.

Also i'd like to say 478 lb/ft is amaizing for a Stock port, what sort of spec and BHP is that car?

Thanks.

Attila the Fun

iTrader: (1)

The mod is NOT easy, unless you have great talent and experience in metal fabrication and considerable experience in tuning with aftermarket products like Electromotive, Wolf, etc.

Not being a hardcore techie type, I'm not sure what you mean by "spec". I assume BHP is "brake horsepower", which I'll interpret as "at the flywheel". The car dynoed with 368 rwhp. Allowing for 15% drivetrain loss, that's 427 hp at the flywheel. It's limited by the stock turbos.

If I've mis-understood your question, have patience and try again.

Grizzly

Wow u have 427 bhp (which usaly means Flywheel) and 478Lb/ft. Is this Correct?

Is this off a Stock(ish) 20b? i understand now what you guys mean about the Torque,

My car is well in the 400rwhp's and it has no wear near that sort of Torque. Do you have a Dyno Chart for a 20b?

Thanks.......Chris

Attila the Fun

iTrader: (1)

Yes.

And, yes. The only mods are using twin Electromotive Tec IIs for engine management and an Apexi boost controller to run the boost up to 1 bar. That overdrives the stock turbos quite a bite, since they were designed for 5.5 psi in normal usage. That accounts for the modest horsepower, compared to the torque on:

http://www.cris.com/~Asam/Dyno1.html

The abrupt drop-off in power at 6200 rpm was due to a defective secondary BOV. The car would probably dyno better now, but I haven't had the time to get it checked.

Did you ever check to see what it would cost to ship my car over there?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

mine dropped off at about 6500, i think we are fighting the stock ports at that point, but its ok with 428lbs ft who needs another 500rpms

mike

now

iTrader: (1)

mike & george> you getting these numbers at 12 lbs of
boost?
another question have either of you pinned your motors?
from what i remember you are both using
early motors which are limited to about 12 psi boost
before they start to fail.
I cant wait to try 16 lbs

matt

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i'm only using about 10psi, but my dyno graph looks almost identical to georges. i've been remapping the whole thing, since i put a 2 bar map sensor back in it (hey the stock fc sensor is 2 bar...). so it doesnt run under boost yet

mike

Attila the Fun

iTrader: (1)

Right. This is where going to 13B-rew rotor housings would provide a benefit.

As you say, the power is adequate, and the speed is about 165 mph, which is also adequate.

Attila the Fun

iTrader: (1)

The test that I posted was done at 10 and at 12. If you look at the picture, you can see where Peter wrote "10" and "12" to identify the two runs. On the track, I run at 1 bar, but only for a few seconds, since the engine's capacity quickly exceeds that of the stock turbos. By the time I get to around 6500 rpm, the boost has declined to around 10 psi.

If I don't sell the car, I'll probably upgrade it after the twins graduate from college. Then I'll get it "pinned" or "dowelled" (whichever term is comfortable), since the motor would need to be pulled apart and lightly ported to get the maximum benefit from a big, single turbo. If I go that route, I'd probably go to the 13B-rew housing, too.

What the hell, I NEED a 700-hp commuter car, right?

Grizzly

I'm into the 20b conversion but i've read theres a problem with the E-staft bending when running big hp.

Do they have 2 center E-shaft bearings?

What do you do to the Internals to get reliability at good hp?

peejay

Displacement = Torque!

You'll never ever get away from that...

Speaking of David Lane, I like his comment along the lines of "You just made the car a lot lighter". Torque is much a good thing.

Grizzly

What sort of 1/4's do these things do? i have been reading up on the cosmo's, a stock 300hp 20b cosmo will do a quater in 14.1 stock.

I am doing some homework on ither doing a triple mod or just fit a 20b, if i was to fit a 20b what internal mods do i need to do? Ie do they come with hardned Staitionry gears etc

I already have a very capable fuel system with a Weldon pump and uprated lines etc, i will have a E11 by then so the ecu should be ok.

Then there is the Oil system, i am running a S4 RX omp on my 13b with a 2 stroke oil mod done, i take it there is 6 out puts instead of 4 on the 13b so are they mechanical or Electric?

How i see it the 20b would be the cheaper way to go for me but would add about 40kg's on my car over the Triple mod.

Thanks.....Chris

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

actually the 20b metering pump only has 3 tubes, they only oil the rotor housing, like the fd. actually the omp looks like the s5 one with one hole undrilled. i dont see why you couldn't put an s4 front cover on it and keep using you setup as long as the water pump clears the cover (the s4 front cover needs the s4 water pump). the 20b will accept your crank angle sensor too so you dont have to change that.

mike

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

j9fd3s, you once mentioned that if you remove the stepper motor from the OMP, it would still function. Do you know what the flow rate would be?

Cooper

not sure how old this thread is since i was doing a search, but in response or follow up to the t-56 comment, you'd want to use a t-56 tranny from a lt1 or ls1 Camaro (and other fbodys) '93-present, you can also find them in some vettes i do believe... LS1 fbodys (98+) use a special slave cylinder etc... Its a bit cheaper (around $1000-$2500 in the US for tranny in good shape) and much easier to find than a ford t-56 tranny (most fords use a t-5... t-56 is only found in a cobra i believe). i dont keep up with them too well, but i believe its a tremmec made/designed tranny.

These tranny are pretty stout, many people w/ Fbodys will run a stock tranny all the way to the 500-600 ft/lbs area, often poweshifting with torque that high.

i believe they weigh around 175 lbs dry, could be wrong. but they do make for a nice fit in a rx7.

Grannys speed shop has info and mounting hardware/info for them if your intrested in learning more about the swap.

I've also heard of people usuing the supra 6 speed tranny for high power/torque cars, and since i pit crew for a supra i had to through that in

While i'm posting, anyone have the link to the page w/ info on the cosmos, euros, and 20b conversion on a FC? it was on the link page of this site that is aparently no more...? i'm trying to pass the info onto a friend thats about to buy an FD, and it contains alot of usefull info on things that you'll need for the swap... along with some price estimates. ???

peejay

T56s are found in '93-up V8 Camaro/Firebirds and all Dodge Vipers.

They were never used in Corvettes. '84-88 Corvettes used 4-speed transmissions with a switched external overdrive on the top three gears, '89-end of C4 used a Zf 6-speed. C5s use a Borg-Warner transaxle that is similar in design to the T56 but totally useless to our needs, since it is a transaxle not a transmission.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Heh, they need a transaxle because the V8 is so heavy.

peejay

Naw, they just wanted to increase the interior room! Ever drive a C4? CRIPES. It takes special skill to feed your legs down in there if you have any amount of height. C5s are bastions of interior room by comparison.

Then again, C5s also have backbone frames, whereas C4s had deep perimeter framerails, that also seemed to function as lateral hip support, possibly even "door bars"