AZrx7

Hello i'am fairly new to the world of rx7's and I just recieved an 1985 RX7 S with 125,000 Miles on it, this car a been in the family for about 10 years and looks great, I would like to keep this car for a long time.
I took it to a RX 7 mechanic just to see what state of condition it was in. He told me that I'am getting engine-combuston in the H20 housing or seal(??) and the oil that is leaking, is comming from the oil metering pump.

He said I could get another a few thousand more miles out of it if I took it easy on it, but when the engine did go it will be beyond repair and I should get a completly new engine that would cost almost $5,000 (installed) because a rebuilt engine won't last all that long and it would be cheaper in the long run to get a new engine. He said I could buy a rebuilt one for cheaper and It might last a couple years, but thats about as much as I'am going to get from it.

He also said the I need to buy a completly new oil metering pump, which I now know is completly untrue (thats to this site!). So I guess my question is, how long do you think I really have left in my engine? It runs great, I'am not seeing any coolant loss and it does not smoke any. Is my engine rebuildable? I have not found any information to support his statments. Is this 7 mech a total crook?

Thanks for any comments

Rotor13B

125,000 miles on a (i'm assuming) stock 12a is relatively low considering alot go to 165, 200,000 mile range. If your not losing coolant, I would just do a thorough tune up and replace all hoses, plugs/wires etc etc, and do a compression check. sounds to me like the guy i trying to give you the shaft..

MIKE-P-28

iTrader: (1)

Hummmm, did he say he was capable of doing the work to?

If you got a coolant seal leak in the motor, and engine gasses are getting into the coolant, and vice versa. You would be getting a LOT of pressure in the radiator.

He right about one thing, when a rotary goes, you will loose one rotor and one rotor housing at least.

But thats the only thing I think hes right about... Sounds like a really nice sales pitch to me, and $5k I think hes dreaming of the golden goose with the golden egg. Find someone else to work on your car

My 85 is showing 224k on it, thats when it went bad...

Sterling

Obviously we don't all go buying brand new engines for 5Gs. Rebuilts are fine if you take it easy on them - just like any other engine. Most of the people that have only had their rebuilt last a short time had been beating the **** outta them anyways, and knew what the consequences would be.

I don't know that this guy is fulla ****. Maybe he's just really nice and trying to instill fear into you so that you take it easy on your car.
Else maybe he's trying ta screw ya! But personally I think it takes alot for a person to screw someone like that. I think he believes what he is saying to you, about all of it. But I also believe in second opinions where life expectancy is a speculation.

Just drive it easy for now, and learn from the board.
Where's that oil leak located? Usually they leak on top by the oil filter. I could be wrong, but it seems to me more likely that the oil pan could've taken a whack and the seal broke than a metering pump failure.

Anyway, go out and buy yourself a Haynes manual for your car. It's basic necessary reading for less than 20 bucks. Later on you might wanna fork bigger money for a bigger book (The shop manuals are expensive.)

Two kinds of car owners...Guy that take it to the shop, and guys that do it all themselves.
Which are you? In either case, you should know all you can about your car. That way you can either fix it yourself, or know when the mechanic is stretching your budget for you.
But in any case, it'll help us all help you to diagnose problems.

Do a search about water seals, compression tests, water in my oil, ect.

ALMOST everything you'll ever need to know about your Rx-7 can already be found here in old threads.

Things to watch for...
NEVER let the rotary get hot. EVER.
The first thing you should do - even before the new plugs and ****, is check the output of the OMP (oil metering pump). [Get the Haynes manual.] A rotary with no oil introduced into the seals will start to smoke soon enough...For good!
You'll also see if that guy was right or not when you do the test.
I assume he pointed the OMP out to you. Its on the carb side, way down at the bottom front of the engine, and has two white opaque plastic tubes running from it to the carburetor.
If you take off the air cleaner and start it up, you should see oil dribbling out very slowly from the ends of these tubes where they meet the inside of the carburetor.
Sometimes when the car is shut off, the tubes drain back down into the OMP, so it takes a long time for them to fill when you start it up. They put out two CCs of oil pre six minutes. (Yeah, I dunno why Haynes did'nt just say 1 CC/3 minutes!)

Good luck

Denny

....So there I was, surrounded by fierce Indians, and me with nothin' but my trusty 19mm gear-wrench. I was forced to carve my way through a wall of human flesh....

Oh, Howdy guy...Just tellin' some of the boys 'bout one of my Sheriff Deputy adventures. It's true, it's true...
Now, regarding your vehicle....Obviously, it's doomed. Your only honest option is to ship it directly to Whiskey Flats, Ohio....Here I will allow it to spend its final days in my Mazda Corral, then give it a proper burial....You'll probably hear rumors that I'm drivin' 'er around, but you know rumors, they're like predictions as to the "End of the World," or the "Motor Medic in a Bottle" engine repair. The real truth is that even after your mechanic drians your wallet for that new engine, you're gonna then need a new radiator, new front suspension, new clutch, near wheel bearings, now driveshaft, new tires, new a/c compressor, new brake rotors and calipers....
Gosh...You'll need a whole new car!!!

Much better you ship it to me, cheaper too. That way you'll be able to open your life to a Focus, or a even a Pontiac Sunfire! Sounds great, eh?

Waitin' for what I know will be a difficult decision.
Stetson in hand, with proper hang-dog look,
Sadly, Denny,
From the 'ol abandoned corncrib....

inittab

Yup! the oil metering pump is a typical location for an oil leak and it is very easy for the DIY'er to fix.

Spieder

Ok. The first thing you need to do is replace your oil metering tube lines. Mazda will charge you about 25 bucks for the 2. If you haven't replaced them yet, it is time. They swell over time and start leaking. Most likely that's your problem. I have had to replace mine about every 7 years.

As for the coolant problem, I had a similar problem on one of my cars after my grandfather overheated it. My advice is to try replacing your intake manifold gasket (if infact you have a problem). It cost me about 13 bucks from Mazda with O-rings. I even had water getting blown up out my radiator. I thought for sure the engine was toast, but once I replaced that gasket it went away.

So spend about 50 bucks in gaskets and engine cleaner and you'll probably be set.

AZrx7

Thanks for you help, as for the oil leak-I see a lot of build up around the oil metering pump but no actual wet oil. The lines are completely dry, all you see is white in one line and the other line has a little oil in it near the carb but the rest of it is white (I’m premixing for now and thinking about just blocking off the metering pump and just doing the pre mix thing. It is losing some oil beneath the oil filter, but I’m not losing much.

I have never dipped deep into automotive repair, but I would like to all the work on this car myself. This is a third car so it's not going to see very many miles on it, I just tinker and drive it on the weekends (my project car), I figure I’ll put around 3000 miles a year on it. I am absolutely fascinated with this car and the rotary engine. I read everything I can find on it and this forum is a information goldmine. I hope to get at least a couple of more years out of this engine (which will give me some time to save for a new one).

Quote: “As for the coolant problem, I had a similar problem on one of my cars after my grandfather overheated it. My advice is to try replacing your intake manifold gasket (if infact you have a problem). It cost me about 13 bucks from Mazda with O-rings. I even had water getting blown up out my radiator. I thought for sure the engine was toast, but once I replaced that gasket it went away.”

Spieder, you know my mom did the same thing about 2 years ago when she had the car (overheated it). This is interesting, where is the intake manifold gasket? Below the carb? I’ll break out my Haynes and look. It seems that the cooling system has way too much pressure, the hoses look like there going to burst when the engine is hot. I hope that this is what is wrong with it, it would great if it was just a simple fix like that.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

i think it was sterling that said the mechanic guy may actually believe what he said to you ... and i agree. i'm not saying that it's impossible that this guy is trying to grease you up and get you ready for the ... you know ... but i am saying that A LOT of people are just downright ignorant when it come to rotary engines! they hear legends about this engine with no pistons that can run, like, 200,000 RPM and likes to explode, killing their owners and his kids and ...

the truth as i see it ... it's just like the guys in this thread have been saying thus far ...

- yeah, the engine is on it's way out the door, will it die tomorrow? possibly ... but not very likely. 12A's are notoritous for lasting close to 200,000 miles (and some of them go with the rotors and housings still in tact ... all you may need at the end is just some machining and BRAND NEW seals all around) - just let the day come on its own, don't rush it!

if you keep in mind that you're running a 17 year old engine with 125K on it when you drive, you'll be fine. in other words, enjoy it, but don't abuse it - (and there's a fine line between both ). if you like to redline, then change your oil more often and keep your cooling system in immaculate shape.

- heat is your worst enemy, and if you WANT to kill a rotary, then that's the easiest way to do it. your cooling system is VERY important ... however, you actually cool the engine more through your oil than antifreeze, so make sure it gets its oil. it needs some for the usual bearing surfaces and seats, but it also need to have it in the combustion chamber (the OMP) for the apex seals.

- you can get a wealth of information from this forum. and these guys know what they're talking about, because we drive these cars and work on them - and generally, nothing is THAT hard to fix.

- fix the OMP, change the oil and filter, change the water pump, change both hoses (make sure the lower one has a metal coil spring in it), change the antifreeze and thermostat ... and just take it easy when you drive

i think you'll be fine

AZrx7

if you would like to check out my 7 here is my web-site

http://www.tucsonthisweekend.com/rx7

inittab

Wow nice car! If ya plan on doing "light engine upgrades" I'd suggest removing this thing:


Yup! replace it with an air/oil cooler from an earlier model or 2nd gen. Your engine will really appreciate it. That should be near the top of your todo list IMO.

jr69187

inittab -- Good idea i toasted my first motor due to this ugly mazda creation.

Az I cannot say enought about your car this thing is absolutly beatiful. I mean a good straight body an absolutly beatiful rx-7. And you have a grey interior i envy that. I really think i should of found a better looking seven to build on but i like my white no sun roof burgandy interior car with a new 12a streetport and racing beat exhuast. But i would really love all that stuck in your car. And if you need any hjelp your at the right spot in a matter of months i have changed motors and anything else out of my car and I have the least amount of mechanical knowledge. But thatnks to them i have a nice running rex and a few one of a kind modifications. But do try and change the oil cooler it costs a little but but can save you an engine for life. Hey if you keep the thing running i should be out in tuscon around xmas so i might have to keep in touch.

stinkfist

Wow! very nice car. Since you live in Tucsan, You should go see Paul Yaw http://personal.riverusers.com/~yawpower/

He will point you in the right direction.

As far as the water seals. Stick your finger in your radiator in the coolant. Does your finger smell like gas? If so then you have a bad water seal. If not, you still might have a bad water seal.

Go see Paul and ask him about his temparary water seal fix.

His temperary fix has been a perminant fix in every car I've seen it used on. I have a friend that did it over a year ago and drives his car everyday. He was ready to do an engine rebuild before he did it.

Good luck,
Mike

inittab

Okay, what's this mysterious "temporary water seal fix" thing anyway? Come-on cough it up.

Sterling

Yeah! Spill!

stinkfist

LOL! I should have known better than to say something like that and not come out with the whole story.

Below is an E-mail I saved that Dale Thomas sent to the FB list a couple of years ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

My 'spare' Turbo II was leaking large amounts of
water into the
engine
as well (front and rear). It got so bad that it
wouldn't start
without
removing the plugs and turning over the motor to
blast out the 1/2
cup
or so of water that was inside!

You guys may have a hard time believing this, but
the motor is fixed
(for now) and running better than it did before.
Total cost: $25

Paul Yaw at YawPower performed this emergency
surgery to my vehicle
to
keep me rolling while we finish the Vortech blown
Turbo II that'll be
ready soon. He had done this to another motor
before and the repair
has
lasted for two years on that motor (in his ported
rotary shop truck).

If you're interested in what is to be considered
a temporary fix,
read
on.

The recipe: two cans of Block Weld and some
Purple Power degreaser
from
Pep Boys. The Block Weld is a clear liquid with
copper granules
blended
in.

The process takes *hours* but can be very
worthwhile! Step 1: Clean
the
heck out of the cooling system - drain the
radiator, fill with water
and degreaser, run the motor until warm. Step 2:
Repeat 5 or 6 more
times. Step 3: Drain the radiator, fill with
water only and run the
motor until warm. Step 4: Repeat 2 or 3 times.
You must rinse the
system with water until no degreaser is left
inside, this is *very*
important. Step 5: When you are sure that the
cooling system is very
clean inside, refill with water plus two cans of
Block Weld (no
anti-freeze). Run the motor until warm (about 30
minutes). This
hardens
the Block Weld where the water is leaking into
the motor. Do not rev
the motor into high RPM during this process! Step
6: Leave the motor
off for a minimum of three hours. Step 7: Drive
for 20-30 minutes in
the local area to make sure that the repair has
worked. Keep the RPM
down! If successful, drain a small amount of
water from the radiator
and add some anti-freeze. If it's still leaking
water into the
engine,
add another bottle of Block Weld and run the
engine for 20-30
minutes.
Let stand for three hours again. Test drive
again. Step 8: Drive the
car around like you used to... assuming that the
process worked!

This process can be a real pain to perform
because you have to start
the motor to accomplish the warm ups during the
steps. Don't forget
to
pull the fuse when you turn the motor over to
push out the water
prior
to each start up. Cups and cups of water came out
of my motor
throughout the process! I have been driving the
car pretty hard since
the temporary fix and it has held up well. It now
starts easily, has
plenty of power, and hasn't needed any water to
be added to the
system
since I added the Block Weld (about two months
ago). It was a lot
easier to do this temporary fix than to go out
and buy another
motor/car, especially since my other one is
almost done.

If your motor is shot (like mine was) you've got
nothing to lose. If
it
works for you thank Paul Yaw at YawPower. His
crappy little shop
truck
has been driven pretty hard for two years after
this same kind of
temporary fix. He claims that his truck's motor
was blowing even more
water out of it than mine was.

If you follow the directions on the can of Block
Weld, it will not
work
for this type of repair! Follow the steps listed
above. Be very
aggressive in your efforts to clean the inside of
the cooling system.

Good luck!

Spieder

The intake manifold gasket is located beneath the carb. You need to remove the carb (least that's how I do it). I think there is 6 bolts that hold it on. Once you take it off you'll see what I mean. The distance between the intake corridors and the water circulation holes is very small. If the gasket gets trashed or the manifold gets a little warped makign a gap with the compressed gasket, you can leak water into the engine.

It looked to me like I was getting a little bit of blow-by coming from somewhere and since my gasket was trashed it was pushing water out my radiator. Not burnign any though.

My advice is take the manifold off (after you have the gasket in hand). Then sand down the manifold and engine block (where they mate) with a really fine 400 to 600 sandpaper so it's smooth. Don't get anything in your engine. Tape off the ports or push some rags in there.

The only quick way to check for blow back into your engine is simple. Buy a new radiator, highest pressure you can get. Then run the car to normal heat. Watch your overfill bottle. If it's bubbling while you run the engine, you've got blow-by. If not, shut the car off and watch the bottle. If you see excessive bubbling then you have do still have some blow-by but not extensive.

This method is used for both pistons and rotaries alike. I learned it because I overheated my MX-6 once on a 115 degree day climbing a mountain. Happened so fast by the time I pulled over, it hit the peg. The car still runs great, but now I have to constantly fill my resevoir bottle every month because I have a small amount of blow-by pushing it out. Most likely I have a warped head. But rotaries can have warped housing which allow gases to seep into the intake manifold or other water areas.

Basically, keep an eye on your bottle. If you car runs great no water in oil or exhaust, then you have some time left.

AZrx7

Hey thanks spieder and everyone else I’m going to check and do everything you guys mentioned. Stinkfist, as far as Paul Yaw goes, I hear he is impossible to get a hold of. Is he still in the business of working on rotaries? I have never tried to get a hold of him, maybe I’ll try.

my car http://www.tucsonthisweekend.com/rx7

stinkfist

Yeah, He is hard to get in touch with. I figured since you live there you might be able to catch him at his shop. That woulds be the way to go.

MIke

Kill No Cone

iTrader: (6)

Hey AZ,
One quick suggestion. If your state has emission tests, with the "sniffer" that goes into the exhaust there is a way to test if you have a water seal problem. Stop by the emission shop and ask them to put the emission sniffer into your radiator (not the overflow). If there are any hydrocarbons passing from the combustion chamber into the water, the emission tester can tell.

If there are hydrocarbons in the water, well your seal is on it’s was out. If there are no hydrocarbon spend some money and make the car run well.

Good luck

moremazda

iTrader: (4)

Did you by chance go to Jay Evens at "Rx for your 7"? If you did, don't take what he is telling you the wrong way. That guy WILL NOT screw you. He is how ever VERY expensive. But he will not tell you that you can not drive the car out of the shop because of an OMP leak. He is very truthful and up front. If it needs to be fixed he will tell you, if it doesn't he will tell you. He is that cut and dry.

Now personal oppinion go to him find out what needs to be done and then do it your self.

Ryan