riceburner1r2001

iTrader: (4)

well like i said before, i can take off the bottom of the L2 on the coil pack and the car wants to start and i still see spark coming from that wire. but when i put it back in and try to give a rev itt dies

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

So this is the original TT, then (one in the simplified write-up I did)? What is going on doesn't make sense. The coil seems to be sparking both plugs, so I don't see how unplugging a wire part way would help it start better.

I would switch back to stock igniton and see if it still does it. Maybe something else is causing the problem. If it runs good on the stock ignition, we will need to check the circuit, connections, and so on to figure out what is going on.

riceburner1r2001

iTrader: (4)

whats weird is that i would put starting fluid in it and it wanted to kick over. and for some reasong yesterday i decided to pull the wire just alittle, and lo n behold the car started with it still sparking. it has me baffled

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

I would say bad wires or maybe the wires aren't seating all the way down into the 2g coil. I've heard that can be an issue and you either have to move the boot up the wire to get it seated deeper into the 2g plug or get a wire that gets down into the 2g plug securely. Go with what gsl-se addict said and switch to stock and see if that works. if it does then it has to be narrowed down by trying some things.

H4Inf

Hi Kent,

Just received your circuits today! Many thanks!! Should get a chance to setup and install this weekend for sure!! Looking forward to it!

We'll let you know how we go.

Cheers!

Paul.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Sweet. Good to hear. It looks like it took about 5 days to get there just like they estimated. Let me know if you have any questions. I included resistors to do either 3.0, 3.3, or 3.9 ms. I think the 3.9 will work well as long as the ignitor doesn't heat up. If it still gets warm, we will have to drop the max pulsewidth a bit.

Good luck.

Kent

MattG

iTrader: (2)

Hey kent,

What is the ETA of the assembled unit's here in the states? Not that im rushing you, I still got tons of parts floating in everyday.

Also how are you going to be shipping these? I am having a real problem with the USPS down here in Lousiana. I might be interested and paying ya a little more for fedex.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Hey Matt,

I have been shipping some upgrade units directly from here since I have all the parts for them. I am still waiting on the ignitor connectors. I hope to get them soon. I have a bunch of circuits built and another group packed up as kits. They will go out once I get the connectors. For shipping, I am not totally decided. It isn't too expensice to ship from here using the postal service. The other option is to send a batch to my mom in the US and have her throw them in the mail. The last group of circuits I used USPS and most of the shipments were quite fast and all made it. If you want to do FedEx or something, that can be arranged. It would have to shipped from the US as FedEx would be very expensive from here (~60 Euros for less than 1 pound).

Kent

MattG

iTrader: (2)

What the hell, Ill just put my trust in the USPS again. (60 euros is a little steep for me)

jimrs

Kent,
The USPS works for me also.
thanks for the update.
Jim

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Matt: If I ship a batch to my mom and have her sent them out, I could do FedEx ground if you would like. Not sure on the shipping cost. Probablly like $6 or $7 from OR to LA.

I'll keep you guys informed. I will contact the place that is sending my connectors to see if they shipped yet. I requested email notification when they ship, but I don't think they normally email when shipping. I got them special order from a motorcycle shop in the US.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Alright, they haven't shipped the connectors yet. They are supposed to go out today. It takes about 1 week to get here. Sorry for the delay, guys. Unfortunately not many places sell these things so we just have to get them where we can.

mbaha

I paid the extra $3 for a shipping upgrade; will it actually be shipped differently than the normally shipped items?

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

What I plan to do is to send the ones that paid extra directly from France and they will go out first. Likely, the others will be shipped to my mom in the US and then she will ship the individual packages. The only problem is she is only available to do this kind of stuff on the weekends because she works 12+ hours a day at her home business. If I send directly from here, it will be faster. The guys in Australia got theirs in about 5-6 days from here. The US is supposed to take the same amount of time.

If I end up shipping them all from here, I will just refund you the difference. It somewhat depends on the weight they end up being. If they weigh 80-100 grams, it is one price, if they are 100-200 grams, they are quite a bit more. The last circuits I did were somewhere around 125 grams with the wires and such. This is why I will probably ship the majority to my mom and have her distribute them because otherwise it may be too expensive to ship from here directly.

MattG

iTrader: (2)

ill pay 3 more bucks to get my unit quicker!!

H4Inf

Ok. We have just tried your latest circuit, Kent - the pcb's you have shipped with components. Very compact and neat!! Looks great.

BUT

It produces the exact same results as our prototype circuit replicated with local components, in that the timing appeared to retard with increased RPM. By this we mean that when facing the engine, standing by the left fender, the timing marks moved towards us with increased RPM. (stock setup timing marks moved away and the simple circuit they did too)

Not really sure if this is an effect of the timing light.. im guessing not.. What is going on?

We have tried a s4 and s5 coilpack both with the same results.

Also noted that I had to advance the dizzy a whole tooth (~22 degrees ish) to bring timing back to normal at idle.

Any thoughs would be great.

Cheers

Paul & Rob

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

This is strange stuff. I can't figure out what is going on. Everything looks good on paper and through simulation. Do you guys still have the C terminal connected to the stock - coil? I wonder if that is causing some problems. I know you were saying that sometimes the car behaves different if the stock coil is firing or not.

There is one or two other guys that have received a circuit. Hopefully they can get it on the car and see if they experience the same results. I really wish I had a function generator and o-scope here to really test them. I really hope there isn't a problem with the circuit itself. Maybe you can try without the R2 resistor in place. It should behave like the simple circuit that way (no max pulse limit). The coil pack will probably get hot, though.

I will try to think of other possibilities. Maybe you can give me a run down of all the wire connections that you have on the leading ignition. That may help to figure out if something else is causing the problem.

H4Inf

Hi Kent,

As we speak Rob is setting up the circuit in his car (which is carby) so not quite as complex as mine. Should have results within the hour. I was thinking of removing R2, but we will see how it goes in Rob's car first.

I'll tell you everything I do when I switch from the stock ignition to the TT setup:

1. Disconnect the + power lead from the stock coil, then bolt this to power cable running to the 2nd gen coil + the TT circuit's 12V in (which then runs out to the Ignitor to supply voltage)

2. Pull the stock harness plug off the Leading ignitor (on the left of dizzy when facing it from left side of car).

3. Plug in the TT plug to leading ignitor. The trigger wire has 2 leads spliced into it. These I run to the stock harness for tacho on dash, and to my ECU harness to provide it with the ignition pulse for it to determine rpm. (the tacho connection and ecu connection are unplugged from the Leading coil - side)

4. Connect leading spark leads to the 2nd gen coilpack

5. Lift dizzy and advance a tooth as with stock setup it is almost in the complete advanced state, once put back in, set to as retarded as possible.

6. Connect up timing light to battery and connect sensor over lead running from 2nd gen coil to L1 plug

7. Start car and observe...

That's what im doing. Please question anything you want to it would be great to get to the bottom of this.

I would also like to clarify that when timing advances, if you are standing on the left side of the car, the timing mark on the pulley should appear to move away from you towards the right side of the car. Is this correct? Once I set the timing and pull on the throttle, the timing marks come closer to the left side of the car.

Cheers,

Paul.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Sounds about right. I wounder if it would help to move the tach and ECU over to either the trailing - or the little black wire that comes off the top of the 2nd gen pack (this leads to the coil - on the pack). Maybe the tach and the ECU input resistances are messing with the circuit. It should be the same effect on the simple circuit as the input impedance for both circuits is the same. I know that probably all the guys that tested before had the tach on the trailing (standard on North American cars, atleast). I think most guys that add an ECU connect to trailing as well. The black wire on the 2nd gen pack should work equally well. Just depends what is easier for you.

The timing does sound backwards. The mark should move towards your drivers side when the throttle is pulled.

Try moving the tach/ECU connection or try in Rob's car.

Kent

H4Inf

Rob has just reported to me that he is experiencing the same problem. Timing is out by about 25 degrees, and ignition retards as he revs it up.

He is going to remove R2 now and see how it goes.

Paul.

H4Inf

OK With R2 removed, the circuit operates correctly... of course without the max pulse width limit.

Noticed:
- 5 degrees retarded timing
- timing advances with rpm increase
- the timing mark jumps around less, compared to with R2 (Rob thinks this may have something to do with the tolerances in components being too high - they are not providing the precision necessary for this application)

He is now test driving - I have been talking to him over the phone.

Thoughts? Would be good to hear results of others who have these new circuits!!

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Well, atleast you got it working. It is too bad the max pulse doesn't seem to work. I don't think it is a tolerance isssue. The tolerance will just make the limits a little bigger or a little smaller (about 11-12%). I know of only one persons that got the circuit so far. It is a kit and I don't think it is assmbled yet. He has the old circuit, so maybe he can check the differences between them.

Now the max and min pulses are generated the same way. They should be in sync with each other. I don't see how triggering both parts of that IC at the same time would cause any problems. The other possibility is something with the NAND gates. I checked the operation of them several times, though. Basically, it should work as an AND gate beteen the input pulse and the max pulse limit. The output of this is connected to the OR gate of the 2.2ms pulse. The combination should produce a pulse that is in between the 2.2 and the 3.9 ms value.

I will check the circuit some more and see if I can figure something out. It may be something subtle like the delay in the pulse generating circuit. This delay is only about 200ns, though.

Quail Squasher

Hi Kent, i finally got my 7 back and its now fitted with a StuBer carb

This evening i fabricated a bracket to mount at the strut tower, angled to clear the fuseable links. I mounted the coil, with a thick section of aluminium sheeting tightened between the 1/8th in. steel bracket and the base of the coil pack to improve the heatsinking effect. I managed to achieve a very good, tight contact area over the entire coil base.

I checked the stock timing again, 5deg BTDC as it should be. I then checked the wiring loom carefully, connected the leadings to the coil pack and fired it up. The timing mark would oscillate maybe 20deg and with the distributed as set for stock ignition, i couldnt even see the timing marks. So i advanced the timing all the way. This allowed me to see the marks, but the timing was still retarded maybe 5deg ATDC and oscillating wildly. As the engine was revved, the timing retarded: complete opposite of what might be expected!

I then removed the R2 resistor (39k Ohm) as suggested and fired her up. The timing was now at 0deg, TDC, so i advanced it to 7-8deg as this seemed where the car was idling the best. The timing mark would oscillate maybe 2-3deg, exactly the same as the simple circuit we tested a week earlier. Idle was excellent, so I decided to take it for a drive (even though the visibility in the rain at night is rubbish). Car seemed more eager down low and ran very smoothly. This lasted for maybe 5mins before i began to detect some missing at 4000-5000rpm. Being aware of the heating problem when running unrestricted max pulse width, i kept the engine rpm up. I pulled the car up after about 7-8min of fairly enthusiastic driving to reduce the advance and alleviate the missing. I set it at about 4-5deg BTDC. The coil pack was quite warm but not hot. The bracket was very close to the same temperature, so there appears to be some merit in heatsinking.

However, the missing seemed to have gotten worse, and the car would pop and splutter and not run at all if i used the secondaries, even a bit. Holding the throttle to the maximum of the primaries whilst first gear (and second), the engine would rev up pretty fast from idle and the rate of rpm increase would slow and stop at about 6000rpm. The car still idled well though, and low rpm performance remained very good. The missing and popping above about 4000rpm continued until i got home. The coil pack was once again quite warm but definitely not hot. A few minutes at idle in the garage though, and it got blazing hot!

So in summary, the first few minutes of the drive were excellent but things deteriorated somewhat afterward. I might setup the original ignition tomorrow a side by side comparision, maybe my timing was too far advanced/retarded to permit the car to rev properly? Timing light indicated otherwise. The small 3deg oscillation is still interesting though, and the behaviour of the full circuit w/R2 is bizzarre, but the initial stages of the test drive have only whetted my appetite. I really appreciate the help you have given us so far and your ongoing input in ironing out any glitches.

Rob

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

This whole thing has me baffled. I don't think anyone has experienced this strange behavior with the previous designs. Without R2, the circuit should basically be just like the last one.

First- Where does your car get the tach signal? I wonder if connecting the tach on the input to the TT may be causing some problems.

I have tried the simulation some more. It still works like it is supposed to. The output pulse is always between the 2.2 and the 3.9 ms boundaries no matter the input pulsewidth. There may be a very small influence due to delays that the simulation doesn't account for.

The backwards behavior is very strange as well. I don't see how that would be happening. Would you happen to have access to an o-scope and function generator? That would let us know what is going on for sure. If there is a problem, hopefully it will be a simple fix.

Few things to try:
- try to put a large resistor in R2 (like 100k). In effect, this would give no pulse limiting. See how it behaves.

- try a 22k resistor in R2. This should give a fixed 2.2ms output (same as the orignial fixed pulsewidth version). The low end is a little weak, but the upper end would still be good.

This should help determine where the problem is coming from. I will investigate the problem further and see if I can come up with something.

Kent

Quail Squasher

Kent, my car is pretty much stock standard series 2 12a carby. The tach signal comes from the trailing coil, so even with the terminals on the leading first gen coil completely disconnnected the tacho was operating fine. Anyone else out there had a close look at this version yet? has anyone noticed the ~3deg oscillation in the timing when using the simplified version?

Tomorrow i will try your suggestions and report.

Rob

Edit: I will verify that the tach signal comes from the trailing tomorrow, just to be sure