supercharger???
12-22-02, 07:01 PM
#76
I see all I need to see, 1) with atkins specs, what is it 3k for like 80 hp MAX and thats with tons of motor upgardes 2) I see the stock power ratings on cars that come with a SC and the non SC equil. and its what 40 hp... Case in point the new Pontiac Gran Prix GTP (non SC= 200 , SC=240) I'll pass on taht ****, my turbo kicks in just fine, theres hardly any lag at all! Seriosly
Now there are SC's out there that will rock your *****, but most of them start at $10k !
Now there are SC's out there that will rock your *****, but most of them start at $10k !
Last edited by MIKE-P-28; 12-22-02 at 07:04 PM.
12-23-02, 01:05 AM
#77
Nikki-Modder Rex-Rodder
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Guys, thanks for the votes of confidence.
diabolical,
I don't know why I do get all bent. I can't explain it- it's the thing of the collective head, I think. I feel that we are all here for a common reason (most of us), and that we all hold a tidbit of knowledge, info, charma- I dunno what- that none of the rest of us have. But if we could all just join together to discuss a project and share it all, we would all come out with such better understanding of everything. (Ya know- ten heads are better than one 'n all that ****.)
But someone comes up with some new ways they think they can apply a basically abandoned setup (supercharging in general, although it's obviously making a come-back on production cars)- and the minds that should collect to share and help seem instead to just attack the odd one like he's a viral infection!
But you're right. I should stop raising my bloodpressure explaining my ideas to people I'll probably never ever even see.
This whole thing was stupid on my part, and I appologize.
-Not to you, 680. Yer still an *******.
Directfreak, It's an Eaton M-90 roots blower from a Ford Thunderbird Supercoup. It is a three lobed helical rotor blower with rear entry (knew ya'd like that!) and the out put is underneath. It can be mounted in any direction without burning out bearings, as it has its own self contained resevoir for the gears. It has a displacement of 1.5 liters, and a maximum recommended RPM of 12,000 - Although Magnusonand other companies that modify the ports say they can be safely run at 16,000 RPM.
According to Eaton, it takes 45 HP to run @ 10 psi. Probably takes an outrageous amount to run it @ 15. But- when a bypass valve is employed, it will only take 3 HP (again, this is what they say). The bypass valve that is always used on the production cars is manifold vacuum operated. The blower only produces boost when the engine sees load.
I will be running this in a blow-thru configuration at a ratio of 2-1 (blower to engine). I stand to make as much as 18 psi with this set-up. I will use water injection and an intercooler. I am still working on some interesting alternatives to cooling the intake charge with an AC compressor, but I'm not likely to try it. (It's being done with great success in Europe I've been told.)
I'm fabricating everything myself, including an idler pulley system that will create equal tension 180* on the E shaft (Equal tension on opposite sides), and most importantly will keep the tension divided so that the E shaft is'nt being shocked.
BTW, Directfreak, My choice of SC was originally guided by research and MONEY! I found first through research that I did not want a centrafugal because its boost is multiplicative.
I wanted linear. When I started looking at Ebay for SCs, (the Eaton M-90 in particular) you could'nt find one for less that 1000 bucks! That was less that two years ago!!!!!
They were few and far between. Now their everywhere due to demand, and price has dropped substantially. The M-62s (1 liter Eatons same configuration) are really cheap!
I got my M-90 this summer for 400. And it's a rebuild by a professional, too. (The seller is a mechanic, ect, yaddayadda. But I got a warrantee, and that made me feel great.)
Now I see alot of M-112s selling very reasonably. The M-90 is as big as I can fit on top of the engine without lumping the hood. It's almost half as big as the damn engine!
There will be plenty of bells and whistles with this setup to avoid the usual bitchin-gripes about superchargers- Which, BTW, usually always seem to apply to one particular unit.
Part of my frustration is that people seem to want to compare their turbo setups to the absolutely most ridiculously inefficient supercharged system possible!...A draw-thru, no water intercooler havin system with a supercharger that's marginally large enough and tends to run out of flow ablility when pushed to its limits- It has no effort in the porting department to help flow, uses a practically stock manifold set-up (I dunno- is the manifold actually stock?), has straight 2 lobed rotors that probably produce alot of pulsating...
Need I go on? reeeeeally!
How 'bout we don't compare my proposed set up to turbos ANY ****** MORE!
Instead, how 'bout we just compare it to the most popular slap on pony power SC available for the first gen Rx-7....The Atkins owned Camden kit?
How 'bout we do that.
As you all know, high hot boost does no good for anyone. I plan to get my charge as cool as possible.
My hope is to make a supercharged 12a that is extremely powerful that will run all day long.
I want a BULLETPROOF setup.
...and I'll build it for about $2000. And aside of busting the engine, the biggest component I can wreck is the SC itself. I'll just spend 400 bucks for a new one. They're everywhere!
I also plan on blueprinting everthing as I go, and tweaking everything till it's perfect, and then replicating the whole thing.
I want to see if it's possible to produce a reasonably priced kit that is cheaper than the Camden, but much better.
diabolical,
I don't know why I do get all bent. I can't explain it- it's the thing of the collective head, I think. I feel that we are all here for a common reason (most of us), and that we all hold a tidbit of knowledge, info, charma- I dunno what- that none of the rest of us have. But if we could all just join together to discuss a project and share it all, we would all come out with such better understanding of everything. (Ya know- ten heads are better than one 'n all that ****.)
But someone comes up with some new ways they think they can apply a basically abandoned setup (supercharging in general, although it's obviously making a come-back on production cars)- and the minds that should collect to share and help seem instead to just attack the odd one like he's a viral infection!
But you're right. I should stop raising my bloodpressure explaining my ideas to people I'll probably never ever even see.
This whole thing was stupid on my part, and I appologize.
-Not to you, 680. Yer still an *******.
Directfreak, It's an Eaton M-90 roots blower from a Ford Thunderbird Supercoup. It is a three lobed helical rotor blower with rear entry (knew ya'd like that!) and the out put is underneath. It can be mounted in any direction without burning out bearings, as it has its own self contained resevoir for the gears. It has a displacement of 1.5 liters, and a maximum recommended RPM of 12,000 - Although Magnusonand other companies that modify the ports say they can be safely run at 16,000 RPM.
According to Eaton, it takes 45 HP to run @ 10 psi. Probably takes an outrageous amount to run it @ 15. But- when a bypass valve is employed, it will only take 3 HP (again, this is what they say). The bypass valve that is always used on the production cars is manifold vacuum operated. The blower only produces boost when the engine sees load.
I will be running this in a blow-thru configuration at a ratio of 2-1 (blower to engine). I stand to make as much as 18 psi with this set-up. I will use water injection and an intercooler. I am still working on some interesting alternatives to cooling the intake charge with an AC compressor, but I'm not likely to try it. (It's being done with great success in Europe I've been told.)
I'm fabricating everything myself, including an idler pulley system that will create equal tension 180* on the E shaft (Equal tension on opposite sides), and most importantly will keep the tension divided so that the E shaft is'nt being shocked.
BTW, Directfreak, My choice of SC was originally guided by research and MONEY! I found first through research that I did not want a centrafugal because its boost is multiplicative.
I wanted linear. When I started looking at Ebay for SCs, (the Eaton M-90 in particular) you could'nt find one for less that 1000 bucks! That was less that two years ago!!!!!
They were few and far between. Now their everywhere due to demand, and price has dropped substantially. The M-62s (1 liter Eatons same configuration) are really cheap!
I got my M-90 this summer for 400. And it's a rebuild by a professional, too. (The seller is a mechanic, ect, yaddayadda. But I got a warrantee, and that made me feel great.)
Now I see alot of M-112s selling very reasonably. The M-90 is as big as I can fit on top of the engine without lumping the hood. It's almost half as big as the damn engine!
There will be plenty of bells and whistles with this setup to avoid the usual bitchin-gripes about superchargers- Which, BTW, usually always seem to apply to one particular unit.
Part of my frustration is that people seem to want to compare their turbo setups to the absolutely most ridiculously inefficient supercharged system possible!...A draw-thru, no water intercooler havin system with a supercharger that's marginally large enough and tends to run out of flow ablility when pushed to its limits- It has no effort in the porting department to help flow, uses a practically stock manifold set-up (I dunno- is the manifold actually stock?), has straight 2 lobed rotors that probably produce alot of pulsating...
Need I go on? reeeeeally!
How 'bout we don't compare my proposed set up to turbos ANY ****** MORE!
Instead, how 'bout we just compare it to the most popular slap on pony power SC available for the first gen Rx-7....The Atkins owned Camden kit?
How 'bout we do that.
As you all know, high hot boost does no good for anyone. I plan to get my charge as cool as possible.
My hope is to make a supercharged 12a that is extremely powerful that will run all day long.
I want a BULLETPROOF setup.
...and I'll build it for about $2000. And aside of busting the engine, the biggest component I can wreck is the SC itself. I'll just spend 400 bucks for a new one. They're everywhere!
I also plan on blueprinting everthing as I go, and tweaking everything till it's perfect, and then replicating the whole thing.
I want to see if it's possible to produce a reasonably priced kit that is cheaper than the Camden, but much better.
Last edited by Sterling; 12-23-02 at 01:19 AM.
12-23-02, 02:34 AM
#79
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
i originally posted here to give Worlord some facts and my opinion on supercharging, thats what i did....
Sterling... you seem very confused in your replies..... and extremly disrespectful to others!!!!i'm reading your post's and i can't figure out what your tring to say!!!!!!first i stated....
680 quote:
what about the power loss from the s/c setup???? i see your avoiding that subject.....also ,don't get so mad..... i'm just proving a point......and yes i'm a fabricator, those **** house s/c brackets you talk about are time consuming!!!!!!$$$$$$$ p/s i would love to se a bypass valve that will flow enough volume to prevent s/c surge!!!! good luck and hope you have lots of $$$$$$...
than you say.......
sterling quote;
I'm not trying to do this on someone elses budget, or as a job for profit. So my time is not clocked on this. This is a project, and could take all summer long. I'm putting in as much time as I need- and if something is'nt right, I'll have to fix it. I have the tools necessary. It's all good.
then you say................
sterling quote;
My hope is to make a supercharged 12a that is extremely powerful that will run all day long.
I want a BULLETPROOF setup.
...and I'll build it for about $2000. And aside of busting the engine, the biggest component I can wreck is the SC itself. I'll just spend 400 bucks for a new one. They're everywhere!
I also plan on blueprinting everthing as I go, and tweaking everything till it's perfect, and then replicating the whole thing.
I want to see if it's possible to produce a reasonably priced kit that is cheaper than the Camden, but much better.
first you say, it dosn't matter how much time it takes because your not on a budget , then you say , the kit should cost around $2,000!!!sounds to me like your tring to make a kit to sell
sterling quote;
Why do you all feel that I need someone to tell me the shortcomings of my system? - Shortcomings of the typical supercharger setup sure -fine. That's helpful, but I'm going through great lengths - GREAT ******* LENGTHS to try to make it work.
What the **** is so bad about that?
everybody here is giving you valuable information!!!!!!!all you do is disrespect everybody! that sucks!!!!
p/s check out the october 1999 issue of TURBO MAGAZINE , the 5 page layout starts on page #114
thats an all motor car that i built back in '97 that went 11:40's at 3,500 feet alt. on a very tight budget!!!!
Sterling... you seem very confused in your replies..... and extremly disrespectful to others!!!!i'm reading your post's and i can't figure out what your tring to say!!!!!!first i stated....
680 quote:
what about the power loss from the s/c setup???? i see your avoiding that subject.....also ,don't get so mad..... i'm just proving a point......and yes i'm a fabricator, those **** house s/c brackets you talk about are time consuming!!!!!!$$$$$$$ p/s i would love to se a bypass valve that will flow enough volume to prevent s/c surge!!!! good luck and hope you have lots of $$$$$$...
than you say.......
sterling quote;
I'm not trying to do this on someone elses budget, or as a job for profit. So my time is not clocked on this. This is a project, and could take all summer long. I'm putting in as much time as I need- and if something is'nt right, I'll have to fix it. I have the tools necessary. It's all good.
then you say................
sterling quote;
My hope is to make a supercharged 12a that is extremely powerful that will run all day long.
I want a BULLETPROOF setup.
...and I'll build it for about $2000. And aside of busting the engine, the biggest component I can wreck is the SC itself. I'll just spend 400 bucks for a new one. They're everywhere!
I also plan on blueprinting everthing as I go, and tweaking everything till it's perfect, and then replicating the whole thing.
I want to see if it's possible to produce a reasonably priced kit that is cheaper than the Camden, but much better.
first you say, it dosn't matter how much time it takes because your not on a budget , then you say , the kit should cost around $2,000!!!sounds to me like your tring to make a kit to sell
sterling quote;
Why do you all feel that I need someone to tell me the shortcomings of my system? - Shortcomings of the typical supercharger setup sure -fine. That's helpful, but I'm going through great lengths - GREAT ******* LENGTHS to try to make it work.
What the **** is so bad about that?
everybody here is giving you valuable information!!!!!!!all you do is disrespect everybody! that sucks!!!!
p/s check out the october 1999 issue of TURBO MAGAZINE , the 5 page layout starts on page #114
thats an all motor car that i built back in '97 that went 11:40's at 3,500 feet alt. on a very tight budget!!!!
Last edited by 680RWHP12A; 12-23-02 at 02:44 AM.
12-23-02, 02:39 AM
#80
dude re read what you just posted he said "'m not trying to do this on someone elses budget" did you not see the "SOMEONE ELSES BUDGET" he's implying that all they work you do is paid for by some one else. and hes paying for his own **** for him self. and just stop posting arguing with each other unless some serious salad tossing happens noone's gonna cahnge their viewpoint...
12-23-02, 06:33 AM
#81
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Originally posted by Hyper4mance2k
first i stole that one from a picture someone e-mailed me aboot two years ago... second, who's been telling you aboot my sexlife???
first i stole that one from a picture someone e-mailed me aboot two years ago... second, who's been telling you aboot my sexlife???
HEYO!!
12-23-02, 08:16 AM
#82
Nikki-Modder Rex-Rodder
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Trying to convince some clown not to put a Holley 600 on his 12a.
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680-
(and yer still an *******!)
I want to explore the idea that I can offer a kit- yes.
Time to fab **** like freaky-cool brackets that do what I need as well as time to tweak, rebuild, **** and moan about them not working, beer breaks....It's all just "happy time" for me.
But if you reread that bit you'll see I say I then want to "replicate" the system- I mean after I've worked the bugs out.
My career is metal fabrication with gold silver copper and ****. But I know bronze and aluminum casting foundry guys, and I figure it's very doable to have a plenum (Eaton M-90 -to- 12a or 13b) cast to sell in a kit.
So yes- I'd love to sell what Etherhuffer a.k.a Dumptruck has dubbed the "Sterlingcharger"!
But only if it's really as great as I hope that it'll be.
Tell me if you thought you could actually make a buck for your efforts, you would'nt do the same?
My profit margin is not expected to be enough to support me like your business does for you- so don't confuse the two. I do not expect to make a whole lot...it's not the point.
Ehhhh....I guess yer not that much of an *******.
Maybe.
BTW, you do say people are just trying to give me advice...C'mon 680, You KNOW yer fulla **** on that one! YOU have been quite an instigator, aligator!!!
Merry ****** Christmas. Gotta go shoppin!
(and yer still an *******!)
I want to explore the idea that I can offer a kit- yes.
Time to fab **** like freaky-cool brackets that do what I need as well as time to tweak, rebuild, **** and moan about them not working, beer breaks....It's all just "happy time" for me.
But if you reread that bit you'll see I say I then want to "replicate" the system- I mean after I've worked the bugs out.
My career is metal fabrication with gold silver copper and ****. But I know bronze and aluminum casting foundry guys, and I figure it's very doable to have a plenum (Eaton M-90 -to- 12a or 13b) cast to sell in a kit.
So yes- I'd love to sell what Etherhuffer a.k.a Dumptruck has dubbed the "Sterlingcharger"!
But only if it's really as great as I hope that it'll be.
Tell me if you thought you could actually make a buck for your efforts, you would'nt do the same?
My profit margin is not expected to be enough to support me like your business does for you- so don't confuse the two. I do not expect to make a whole lot...it's not the point.
Ehhhh....I guess yer not that much of an *******.
Maybe.
BTW, you do say people are just trying to give me advice...C'mon 680, You KNOW yer fulla **** on that one! YOU have been quite an instigator, aligator!!!
Merry ****** Christmas. Gotta go shoppin!
12-23-02, 01:39 PM
#83
I've discussed the A/C compressor idea with a friend of mine who owns an FD and is an engineer who worked with industrial HVAC units and he worked out the figures. In order to cool the intake air enough to make a noticable difference you would need a compressor so large the weight would offset any gains you would get. If you want specifics I can get them.
12-23-02, 02:06 PM
#84
Originally posted by mazdaspeedrex
I've discussed the A/C compressor idea with a friend of mine who owns an FD and is an engineer who worked with industrial HVAC units and he worked out the figures. In order to cool the intake air enough to make a noticable difference you would need a compressor so large the weight would offset any gains you would get. If you want specifics I can get them.
I've discussed the A/C compressor idea with a friend of mine who owns an FD and is an engineer who worked with industrial HVAC units and he worked out the figures. In order to cool the intake air enough to make a noticable difference you would need a compressor so large the weight would offset any gains you would get. If you want specifics I can get them.
12-23-02, 02:12 PM
#85
Originally posted by Sterling
Directfreak, It's an Eaton M-90 roots blower from a Ford Thunderbird Supercoup. It is a three lobed helical rotor blower with rear entry (knew ya'd like that!) and the out put is underneath. It can be mounted in any direction without burning out bearings, as it has its own self contained resevoir for the gears. It has a displacement of 1.5 liters, and a maximum recommended RPM of 12,000 - Although Magnusonand other companies that modify the ports say they can be safely run at 16,000 RPM.
According to Eaton, it takes 45 HP to run @ 10 psi. Probably takes an outrageous amount to run it @ 15. But- when a bypass valve is employed, it will only take 3 HP (again, this is what they say). The bypass valve that is always used on the production cars is manifold vacuum operated. The blower only produces boost when the engine sees load.
Directfreak, It's an Eaton M-90 roots blower from a Ford Thunderbird Supercoup. It is a three lobed helical rotor blower with rear entry (knew ya'd like that!) and the out put is underneath. It can be mounted in any direction without burning out bearings, as it has its own self contained resevoir for the gears. It has a displacement of 1.5 liters, and a maximum recommended RPM of 12,000 - Although Magnusonand other companies that modify the ports say they can be safely run at 16,000 RPM.
According to Eaton, it takes 45 HP to run @ 10 psi. Probably takes an outrageous amount to run it @ 15. But- when a bypass valve is employed, it will only take 3 HP (again, this is what they say). The bypass valve that is always used on the production cars is manifold vacuum operated. The blower only produces boost when the engine sees load.
The Eaton supercharger system incorporates a specially designed bypass valve, which is actuated by a vacuum motor near the throttle body, and recirculates the supercharger air flow when boost is not required. During typical driving conditions, the engine is under boost around 5% of the time, which means the remaining 95% of the time the engine is under vacuum, allowing for better fuel economy and a quieter ride. In addition, the helix angled rotors, along with specially designed inlet and outlet port geometry, also reduce pressure variations resulting in a smooth discharge flow and a lower level of noise during operation. The associated ducting and mounting used in installing the supercharger can play a major role in reducing the noise emitted by the supercharger.
12-23-02, 02:41 PM
#86
I will use water injection and an intercooler. I am still working on some interesting alternatives to cooling the intake charge with an AC compressor, but I'm not likely to try it. (It's being done with great success in Europe I've been told.)
12-23-02, 05:41 PM
#89
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hey how bout this i have an 85 gs naturally aspirated do yourself a favor go to mazdatrix get some apex 3mm seals full exhaust a weber carb and intake and run a 100 hp shot of nos no spoolin involved just the push of a button for under 3 grand
12-23-02, 05:46 PM
#90
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At this point, I'm not certain what this thread is about, and I don't really care.
I'm a pretty peaceable guy, but here's the way this forum works (seems quite a few need reminding these days).
We will treat each other with basic human respect and decency. This applies even if we completely disagree with what someone else is saying (or what they want to do to their car, even if their mother does dress them funny!)
Does this mean we can't disagree?? Of course not! But it does mean that, when we disagree, will won't start attacking the other individual -- think about it, all you really accomplish when you fly off the handle (other than ticking off most everybody else and escalating the situation) is to make yourself look foolish -- as if you can't control your emotions. By the way, this is not addressed to any one individual, but to us all -- myself included. Debating is good, and is most welcome. Attacking each other is not.
This section is, I feel, one of the best parts of the forum -- due in no small way to the (usual) level of respect the members have for each other. It seems a few things have gotten out of hand lately, so I just want to remind us all of the facts mentioned above.
Now, to those that want to continue discussing the topic at hand of this thread, bearing in mind what I've mentioned above, feel free to start a new thread.
I'm a pretty peaceable guy, but here's the way this forum works (seems quite a few need reminding these days).
We will treat each other with basic human respect and decency. This applies even if we completely disagree with what someone else is saying (or what they want to do to their car, even if their mother does dress them funny!)
Does this mean we can't disagree?? Of course not! But it does mean that, when we disagree, will won't start attacking the other individual -- think about it, all you really accomplish when you fly off the handle (other than ticking off most everybody else and escalating the situation) is to make yourself look foolish -- as if you can't control your emotions. By the way, this is not addressed to any one individual, but to us all -- myself included. Debating is good, and is most welcome. Attacking each other is not.
This section is, I feel, one of the best parts of the forum -- due in no small way to the (usual) level of respect the members have for each other. It seems a few things have gotten out of hand lately, so I just want to remind us all of the facts mentioned above.
Now, to those that want to continue discussing the topic at hand of this thread, bearing in mind what I've mentioned above, feel free to start a new thread.
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