i_piss_on_hondas

pratch do you come in here to talk about cars or just talk ****???

Project84

Amist all the fire and brimstone, there is useful information here.

Project84

Do we need to call the national guard? This **** is getting rough.

Sterling

Pratch, you're really after his ***, are'ntcha?!

680, I did'nt really like you too much from that **** you pulled on Mazspeed.
Now I like you less - and here's why;
You build turboed rotarys. I have yet to build my SCed machine. So I can't really tell you to **** off. ...Well, I could, but with no subsance to back it up!
But I need for you to honestly- [i]and I mean honestly ask yourself if you've EVER seen a really well done supercharged system on a rotary- I mean so well done that there was nothing you could think of to add to it?
I'll bet the answer is "no".
People that SC their rotaries don't very often go the few steps further of fabrications like I intend to. The pulley situation you describe, for example- If you had seen the SC I asked you about, that would'nt have even gotten mentioned. That's simply because nobody bothers to address this problem!
I plan to address the problem by running a cogged engine pulley to a cogged idler pulley. The idler pulley will be a dual that will run to the SC. The bracket will have to be built like a brick **** house, but the stresses will be on the idler and the SC (SC stress will be lessened by a shorter nose cone- not much more I can do about that).

These are the nit picky things that people bring up bad about SCs- Not "nit-picky" in the sense that they're not real problems; They most certainly are. But picky in the sense that they are all fixable problems with a little thought, ingenuity and desire.

I plan to go the distance. I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, or laugh in any turbo-faces. I just truly believe that I can make a supercharger out perform a turbo.

Nobody has ever given me any scientific data to tell me otherwise. I just keep hearing about how great turbos are by (mostly) guys who've never been in a rex with a decent supercharger.
You say vibration from a supercharger- obviously something's out of balance on whatever you were in. Unless, of course, it was a straight lobed supercharger like the Atkins sold Camden.

Project84

Even if they did, don't buy it. On paper, the B-52 wasn't supposed to fly. Bubble bees theoretically can't fly. Both of them will sting your ***.

680RWHP12A

Sterling, i'm not tring to **** you off, just stating the FACTS, providing information , nothing more.....How much s/c experience do you have??? Your going to use a cogged pulley system on the street??? lol!!!!!!Cogged pulley systems were originally designed to eliminate belt slippage , and it did.....BUT there was a price to pay.....lots of parts failure!you need some slippage with a street s/c system. nobody uses a cog system on the street!!! ask any s/c specialist....please get other opinions, just tring to help! p/s..........................................
what about the power loss it takes to turn the s/c??

REVHED

Let me break it down... there are two types of superchargers, positive displacement and centrifugal. Why would you assume the word "supercharger" automatically means centrifugal?

fatboy7

I don't know about this one.... I'm sure there is probably some downside to a cogged pully, but I doubt reliability is one of them.(timing belts are often cog, and they don't seem to need a replacment that often) My guess is that the shock load that is added to the system when the SC comes out of bypass is a more likely canidate. Not sure what could/would be hurt though, as the torsional strength of the E-shaft is somthing to behold, and the SC should be built to take that kind of punishing.

680RWHP12A

think about this....... if the cog system was superior, then why woldn't all factory cars come with it????? food for thought........i agree on the timing belt issue but you don't have 20 pounds of boost to STOP when the throttle plate closes instantly.... and don't say blow-off valve or i'll slap you! i don't care what kind of supercharger it is the bottom line is it takes power to make power, and if i'm useing a 1.3 l motor i don't want to take any power away !!!!!

Sterling

Did you even read ANY-******-THING I wrote?!
WHAT THE ****?
If you re-read what I wrote throughout and stop being so ****** narrow minded, you would understand that there will be room for slipage- The engine to idler is cogged. The idler to SC is NOT. What the **** would I bother explaining about the bracket having to be "built like a brick shithouse" for? Use your ******* HEAD! This way I can crank on the idler without bending the E-shaft. GET IT?

Bypass! BYPASS! BYPASS! BYPASS! I'm using a bypass of my own design to eliminate MANY of the problems associated with the usual SC set-up design- such as having to "stop" 20 psi when the throttle closes. -Hell man, that's standard on all the M-62s on the 2300 V6s. It's just a simple vacuum operated bypass.

What the ****, 680? You're a god-damn fabricator. I saw the pictures. Did you NOT do that work? Obviously you understand these things can all be remedied with some thoughtful fabrication. Stop being so ******* closed-minded about it!

You are the epitomy of the "turbo-guy" mentality that I despise so much. So set in your ways, yet so talented. It's a god damn shame, you know that?
Your own narrow mindedness has set your parameters in your chosen profession, and you won't ever break new ground with such an attitude.
I hope you do open up your mind a little and expand your horizons. From the photos I've seen, you seem to be a very good fabricator. If you would open up and ponder some ideas, then when your business is finally thriving and you have a bunch of young guys working for you all learning from your years of experience, and you're still too young to be concidered an "old man", you'll enjoy "playing" and experimenting with other ideas.
But not so long as you continue to laugh at others who are trying just that, YOU ****!

Guys who jump in and stomp all over someones choice and ideas REALLY **** me off.
PROFESSIONALS IN THE FIELD who jump in and stomp all over someones choice and ideas REALLY, REALLY **** me off. Try offering some advice instead, You'll be much better recieved by guys like me. All your little groupies here on the board that are so impressed with your work and offer you alot of "oooh"s and "ahhh"s...guess what? They ain't got no ****** money! So you're not gaining anything by slamming the "turbo-door" in my face.

Have an intelligent conversation and share your knowledge and experience without telling me my choice "sucks", and I'll recipricate with intelligent conversation that does'nt include "****" and "you" in the same sentence.
I'm so explosively pissed off because even though I only know your childish side from the Mazspeed bullshit, I figured you just got pushed into having to resort to that behavior. I thought you- of all people here - would at least entertain my ideas by reading carefully and giving me intelligent feedback on what I propose to do. I am simply disappointed that you- even though you're a turbo guy- would'nt respect my ideas and and ambition simply as a fellow metalsmith and fabricator.
I was hoping for some respect on that one tiny piece of common ground we share; the idea that anything can be fabricated if you're willing to go the distance.

I guess I was actually looking for your input on my system. But you just could'nt ****** do it, couldja? You had to get all "turbo-righteous" on me. WTF?
Man, I never said "Turbos suck!". Anyone who says that is an *******- thru 'n thru.
Likewise with anyone saying that about superchargers.

BTW - Why are you even on this thread? What the **** do you care?
Please add some of your knowledge to my application, and try helping a supercharger guy out.
If you can do both really well, well then you really would be "da ****" you think you are, right?

...Chr-ist.

pratch

I usually try to talk about cars, but I'm really gunning for my custom avatar, and you present such a wondeful target

I have nothing against you, other than the fact that you said you would gladly say if you were wrong, yet you insist on backpedaling instead (well, that and people who butcher spelling/grammar and make no effort to speak well tend to irk me to no end).

Now go give me more posts to reply to - Daddy wants his new avatar!

680RWHP12A

what about the power loss from the s/c setup???? i see your avoiding that subject.....also ,don't get so mad..... i'm just proving a point......and yes i'm a fabricator, those **** house s/c brackets you talk about are time consuming!!!!!!$$$$$$$ p/s i would love to se a bypass valve that will flow enough volume to prevent s/c surge!!!! good luck and hope you have lots of $$$$$$ again superchargers suck!!!!!!

setzep

I think it's cool that you plan on going the extra mile when doing this supercharger project. But when I read what you typed above thats when I knew you didn't know 100% of what you were talking about. I'm by no meant a expert with force induction but It's a well know fact that a turbo is more efficient than a supercharger. Did you know that it's possible to have less back pressure than boost pressure if you have a correct designed turbo system on a rotary?

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

wow

Argueing on the internet is like running in the special olyimpics; you might win but in the end you're still RETARDED!!
**** off all of you go get a moist towlee, jerk off to some internet ****, and then have a ******* cookie and cool down :P

680RWHP12A

thank you ,,, finally somebody that knows what they are talking about

and no matter what.... with a supercharger there will always be power loss


p/s sterling i wish you nothing but good luck and i hope it works out the way you want!!!!don't be mad remember ..... ROTARY POWER!!!!1

pratch

Wow, someone likes quoting from someone else's joke! You better hope nobody posting here has a child with mental handicaps you insensitive ****...

Sterling

Originally posted by 680RWHP12A
I'm not trying to do this on someone elses budget, or as a job for profit. So my time is not clocked on this. This is a project, and could take all summer long. I'm putting in as much time as I need- and if something is'nt right, I'll have to fix it. I have the tools necessary. It's all good.

As far as avoiding the subject of "power loss from the SC set-up", I'm not avoiding it at all. I've already aknowledged it...even gave numbers- YOU ****[/i]

No-no; I did'nt call you that because you failed to read that part of my previous posts here. I called you that because you then say in the same post...
.
...such an *******. Obviously not here to change my mind, and obviously not here to give me any help.
So why again are you here?

- Oh but wait. You then say:
O.K., So now I appologize for calling you a "****".
Mmmmm-Kayyy?



On toooooo:
setzep
First off, thanks for your vote of confidence. Secondly, your second statement about my not knowing 100% of what I'm talking about...Well now yer pissin me off, too, setzep. And I thought you were my buddy.
Try reading my ****** posts.

You silly ******* are so set in your ways that you refuse to even give ANY thought to what I propose. I swear- it's like you guys have'nt even read what the **** I've written, ya know?!
Are you guy, like uhhh, really ****** stupid, or what?
Can someone show me where I say that superchargers are more or even come close to the efficiency of a turbo?
Uhhhhmmmm- anyone?
Oh wait- I see. You read "outperform"....MMMmmm.
Guess that's just not possible, right.

...********.

I'm using a huge ****** block of cast aluminum that wieghs about 30 ****** pounds. I'm milling a block almost as big to set it up on. God knows what the rest will wiegh, and the carb design might suck so much fuel it won't be funny.
- Oh but it'll be sooooo much more efficient that a turbo.
Yeah right.

Setzep.
Don't tell me I don't know what I'm tallking about because you put some ****** words in my mouth, O.K.? Don't be a pop-up ad for turbos and just read the last post and toss in yer pocket change. Read the whole ****** thing.

Hyper4mance2k
Yeah. Ummmm- you obviously did'nt come here for anything else but the Jerry Spring show. Or ****.
...Are you naked right now?
********.


Then we hear from 680RWHP12A again:
O.K.- Once again...Do I have to bring down an excerpt from my post that demonstrates my frustration (and absolute aknowledgement) about the power loss that I'll have?

Again I say it- Why do you guys even care? You're turbo heads, not rotorheads. A Rotorhead would be interested in any home fab job that's anything a little different. But a turbohead just wants to see the same cookie-cutter ****** setup on every single engine.
Why do you all feel that I need someone to tell me the shortcomings of my system? - Shortcomings of the typical supercharger setup sure -fine. That's helpful, but I'm going through great lengths - GREAT ******* LENGTHS to try to make it work.
What the **** is so bad about that?
You guys even read my old posts on this? I learned from the turbo guys here.
I want to build a $2000 15psi bulletproof 12A that has variable boost control and override (cruising bypass), water injection, a big *** IC, and a carb that I design.
I have a milling machine and a pile of aluminum stock.
This is just my version of the GRM magazine $2K challange.
It's not like I'm shitting on turbos. Why would I? There's hardly anything to poke a stick at them about. But as turboguys, having a more efficient system, why do you all feel so compelled to bash others' attempts at something different?

I should be cheered on as I try to use commonly found junkyard parts to fabricate a kickass system.

I never said it would be more efficient that a turb. I said it would be more efficient that the present Camden 7 inch.
I did say that I want it to outperform a turbo.
Even by that very statement I've aknowledged what I hold as the standard of performance.
YOU ****** MORONS!

setzep

Sterling whats going on here? I thought were were cool also but then you came back with this post

I never put words in your mouth just repeating what you said. You said truly believe that I can make a supercharger out perform a turbo. and I was disagreeing with that. I am in no way a "pop-up ad for turbos" just not agreeing with what you said. I did read the "who ****** thing" and I think you have a hellofa journey ahead of you. I just don't see why you are so mad at me. Now 680...I can see why you are mad at him. Good luck, hope it does everything you want it to do.

-Cam

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Hey, I am all for it Sterling. I have a couple of questions, since I am a "Turbo" guy, and am not as familiar with superchargers.

Are you putting the supercharger on top of the block (manifold), and then the carb on top if that?

If it's that way I think it is,

Then I don't see how you can intercool it with "a big *** IC". Wouldn't you have to use just water injection? Kinda like the Ford Lightning?

Now, I don't know what your S/C looks like, but if it is centrifugal, like the "pro-charger" (basically a belt driven turbo)
then I could see the use of a large front mount I/C.
By the way, the centrifugal is the way to go if you have the means, it is very efficient, and everything is done like a turbo system.

For the rest of the "Turbo-heads" out there, I remember reading on Sterling's threads somewhere some of his ideas that were very interesting.

Since he is making his own adapter to fit on top of the manfold, he was going to make a bleed of system to control boost. This could be cockpit controlled, so he wouldn't have to switch pulleys. Now the only probem with this idea that I see, is that the S/C will always be spinning at high boost levels (and deteriorating it's life) all the time, even if you kept the boost low via the bleed-off valve.

Also, Why couldn't he put a BOV somewhere inbetween the S/C and the intake runners (after the throttlebody) to release any surge between shifts?

I also remember the idea coming up of possibly making the S/C pulley have a "clutch" system like an A/C compressor - so it wouldn't be in use while crusing. It could be activated by manifold pressure (engine load) to engage whenever the car is is being "stepped-on".
When the S/C is "off" it would need a different way to get air into the engine though. Maybe some kind of modified wastegate?

This would ease the "parasitic power loss" that everyone is so concerned about

Again, I may be talking out of my *** for this stuff, but just because it's different, doesn't mean it's bad. If Sterling was into Turbo's, he would have built one out of Junkyard parts a long time ago. He wants to be different, - so be it. He wants a fast seven. We all do. It's just a different means to an end.

Good luck Sterling, I hope you make it happen, and soon. Although, please be gentle on us "Turbo Guys", we are narrow minded sometimes.

zookeeper

You guys are nuts.

Given the choice, and I don't know diddlyshit about either system, I'd go SC - Just because everybody else is going turbo. Neither system sucks; both systems blow. They both have good points and bad points...

But, ta hell with it, I'm just gonna put solid rocket boosters on mine.

There's really some good info in here, but you need a fireproof suit to get at it!

Wish I'da started this thread. I'd be laughing my *** off!

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

For real!!!!! I've been reading from the sidelines since last night, and until then I had not realized how much of a knock-down, drag-out war this has become. There's a lot of good info here (some of it even went over my head, thanks Sterling ) but the rest of it is just plain, ol' hilarious - better than cable!

I don't have any real input on this, because I'm grossly underread about Superchargers. I'm more into turbos because I have to deal with it on my MR2's buildup, but other than that, I wouldn't go so far as to classify myself as a turbo-head!

Sterling, take my advice, which is ... take the advice you gave to me in the 20 psi 12A thread (huh? ) ... don't waste your time! Obviously there are some people here who don't want to learn about "good supercharger systems" and are quite content with aimlessly bashing them, because they understand (or even think they understand) turbos. Just let them be! You can't change them, and after a while it just starts to become a session of "yo' mama, what???" ...

Don't stress it! When you get done, you may not be able to take out people like Directfreak (can't think of many who could ) but I'm sure you can challenge a couple of the other big turbo-dudes and make them go back to the drawing board, scratching their heads, with that rape-victim look on their faces.

Jus' do ya' thaaang, bwaaaah. I may not know much about the technical side of your proposed setup, but you seem to - and in the end, that's all that matters. As long as you have a plan, and you know what needs to be done to execute it, then just do what you have to do and let the words roll of you. I'm not really one for bashing the next guy just because he chose a different path, like I said, I prefer turbos (does that make a bad person?) - but I'm on this board for Rx-7s and rotary engines, not turbos (for that I visit the MR2 board - talk about closed-minded babies!) You get my vote of support. Good luck!

pratch ~ from one instigator to another, I tip my hat! That's some funny ****!

fatboy7

The turbo vs supercharger war is as old as the hills, I don't think we are going to make significant ground one way or another fighting this small battle out with cuss-words and bad mouthing. When I use to compete in high school and college (swimming, if you want to know) You can only bad mouth someone so much before you race and either prove or disprove the crap.... let stirlings system talk for its self, when its prepared. 'Til then.... your entitled to your opinion.

Just dial it down people, before the mods dispose of the thread completely.

mazdaspeedrex

Why don't you just put a v8 in there?

Or how about NAWS?

Actually you could run nitrous lines through the air flow to help cool the intake. Not a big shot obviously but just a little will help drop the temperature tremendously.

MIKE-P-28

iTrader: (1)

Ill pass on a supercharged rotary any day, looks like a **** load of work for meager gains... I have NEVER been a fan of one...

thorin

a little googling revealed the following links which may be of interest:

http://www.atkinsrotary.com/mazdees.htm

http://www.atkinsrotary.com/DanielA.htm

http://www.atkinsrotary.com/Brian.htm

http://www.geocities.com/boatseason/