No Compression, No Start
12-16-07, 05:40 PM
#1
MagickNinja
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No Compression, No Start
well hello people. I'm new, just joined the site when a 1978 RX7 came into my posession. First, I'd like to say before anyone replies calling me stupid, I know that the RX7's are considered 79's because they didn't make it to the states til then, but the badges on my car all read 1978. So, I'll give you the story and the problem and see what you guys can come up with. My younger brother gave me the car. It was given to him about a year ago. The guy who gave it to him is a close friend. He tells us that his girlfriend had the car, and couldn't drive it in the snow. She parked it one fall, it ran fine and had lots of power/acceleration. She got herself a 4x4 subaru and never looked back. The car sat in his yard for 2 years. His father wanted it gone, so he traded it to my brother. My brother got the car, and parked it in his yard. He drives a rare Subaru XT6 and really never had any interest in the RX7. So, as far as I know, the car has sat for a total of 3 years. My brother gave me the car, and the only reason I was interested is because the body is 100% There is no rust, dents, or rot. The paint is faded (red) but who cares. The interior is "decent" the usual stuff when a car sits, cracked dashboard, dirty, a small odor. But, everything works, all guages, lights, buttons, etc. It has the 12A rotory bolted up to an automatic. Many mechanics have told me not to even bother with it because its a rotory. But others have told thats only because they don't understand them, anything they don't understand must be junk, right? They've used these motors for years and used in many a race car...so it seems common sense to me that they can't be all THAT bad. So, I towed the car home and started checking it out. First, it was missing half the plug wires, my older brother is a mechanic and had the book for the car. We got the firing order correct, made sure all wires, coils and plugs were sparking. Second, we made sure the fuel pump was kicking on and staying on. Last we checked alot of vaccum hoses to ensure they were hooked up where they belonged. I slapped a new battery in it and went to try it when I noticed the key was broken. My brother pulled the back of the ignition so we could start it with a screwdriver. We had assumed the car was filled with old gas, so we dumped a bit down the carb and tried it. It cranked over, sprayed gas out of the top of the carb, and coughed. My brother took this as a timing problem. After checking a few things everything seemed normal. We inspected the tank to find it was empty. I poured a few gallons into the tank, turned it on and waited for the pump to start and get quiet, indicating it was indeed pumping fuel. After, I pumped it a few times and my brother verified it was spraying into the carb. We tried it again. When trying to start, it seems to have very very little compression. While cranking I hit the gas a few times and it seemed it was trying to start but just couldn't. My brother pulled the plugs and they were soaked, and after, the fuel leaked from the plug holes. it wasn't pouring out, but it wasn't just trickling either. After 2 days of playing with the car, my brother came to the conclusion that it was possible the seals (Apex?) were bad. He said they were made of rubber, and since the car had sat for 3 years in the weather, it was very possible the seals dryed out and weren't sealing at all. I called my father (also a mechanic) and another guy I know who owns an RX7, they both verified that if the seals were indeed bad from sitting, it would have little if any compression and won't start. They both recommended pouring some oil into the carb, cranking it, and letting it sit. They said if it was the seals, the oil would bring them back to life slightly and the compression would get a tiny bit better, and if this happened, we knew what the problem was. After doing some research, I can't even find Apex seals for this car, they were all 1985+ and I also came across a forum of a guy saying his car had the same problem without sitting, he took it to a shop, they said carbon had built up on the seals, weren't allowing them to seal, hence no compression. They cleaned the carbon for $250 and he did not know how they did it. Not much help for me. But, it indicated the seals might not be gone, but covered in carbon. Again I called mechanics I knew an they recommended pouring transmission fluid into the carb, cranking it, and letting it sit. I've also read the pump that supplies oil to the seals is a known problem for these motors. The seals I could find were over $500. But as I said, couldn't find any for a 78/79. And for that price, I know where another 1980 RX7 is sitting with a good motor and trans without a title for $500. Alot of the people on this site seem to know what they are talking about, so I thought I'd ask you guys...What else could be the problem? Has anyone else encountered this exact same issues? What did you do to fix it? Would it be smarter to just swap the motor or am I missing something stupid and easily fixed? I can tell you the motor is not beat, it is clean and looks to be taken care of. Only things missing are an AC Pump, no big deal. The mileage reads 57,800 but they don't have the 100 thousandth number, so I have no idea how many times it could have rolled over and could have a couple hundred thousand miles. Oil in the car was clean, no gas, not burnt, no water, no metal flakes. So, what can I do? I really appreciate any and all comments, suggestions or similar stories. I thank you for your help and apologize for the long post, I just wanted you to know as much about the car as I do. Thanks.
12-16-07, 05:53 PM
#3
I typed in a big reply, but figured you could use this instead:
https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/1st-gen-rx-7-faq-page-237777/
First page, in all caps, stickied. If you really search you can find all your answers.
https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/1st-gen-rx-7-faq-page-237777/
First page, in all caps, stickied. If you really search you can find all your answers.
12-16-07, 05:57 PM
#4
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OMG my eye's... they burnt.. halp!
Let me Halp you.
Let me Halp you.
well hello people. '
I'm new, just joined the site when a 1978 RX7 came into my posession. First, I'd like to say before anyone replies calling me stupid, I know that the RX7's are considered 79's because they didn't make it to the states til then, but the badges on my car all read 1978.
So, I'll give you the story and the problem and see what you guys can come up with. My younger brother gave me the car. It was given to him about a year ago. The guy who gave it to him is a close friend.
He tells us that his girlfriend had the car, and couldn't drive it in the snow. She parked it one fall, it ran fine and had lots of power/acceleration. She got herself a 4x4 subaru and never looked back. The car sat in his yard for 2 years. His father wanted it gone, so he traded it to my brother. My brother got the car, and parked it in his yard.
He drives a rare Subaru XT6 and really never had any interest in the RX7. So, as far as I know, the car has sat for a total of 3 years. My brother gave me the car, and the only reason I was interested is because the body is 100% There is no rust, dents, or rot. The paint is faded (red) but who cares. The interior is "decent" the usual stuff when a car sits, cracked dashboard, dirty, a small odor. But, everything works, all guages, lights, buttons, etc
. It has the 12A rotory bolted up to an automatic. Many mechanics have told me not to even bother with it because its a rotory. But others have told thats only because they don't understand them, anything they don't understand must be junk, right? They've used these motors for years and used in many a race car...so it seems common sense to me that they can't be all THAT bad.
So, I towed the car home and started checking it out. First, it was missing half the plug wires, my older brother is a mechanic and had the book for the car. We got the firing order correct, made sure all wires, coils and plugs were sparking. Second, we made sure the fuel pump was kicking on and staying on. Last we checked alot of vaccum hoses to ensure they were hooked up where they belonged. I slapped a new battery in it and went to try it when I noticed the key was broken. My brother pulled the back of the ignition so we could start it with a screwdriver.
We had assumed the car was filled with old gas, so we dumped a bit down the carb and tried it. It cranked over, sprayed gas out of the top of the carb, and coughed. My brother took this as a timing problem. After checking a few things everything seemed normal. We inspected the tank to find it was empty. I poured a few gallons into the tank, turned it on and waited for the pump to start and get quiet, indicating it was indeed pumping fuel. After, I pumped it a few times and my brother verified it was spraying into the carb. We tried it again. When trying to start, it seems to have very very little compression. While cranking I hit the gas a few times and it seemed it was trying to start but just couldn't.
My brother pulled the plugs and they were soaked, and after, the fuel leaked from the plug holes. it wasn't pouring out, but it wasn't just trickling either. After 2 days of playing with the car, my brother came to the conclusion that it was possible the seals (Apex?) were bad. He said they were made of rubber, and since the car had sat for 3 years in the weather, it was very possible the seals dryed out and weren't sealing at all. I called my father (also a mechanic) and another guy I know who owns an RX7, they both verified that if the seals were indeed bad from sitting, it would have little if any compression and won't start. They both recommended pouring some oil into the carb, cranking it, and letting it sit.
They said if it was the seals, the oil would bring them back to life slightly and the compression would get a tiny bit better, and if this happened, we knew what the problem was. After doing some research, I can't even find Apex seals for this car, they were all 1985+ and I also came across a forum of a guy saying his car had the same problem without sitting, he took it to a shop, they said carbon had built up on the seals, weren't allowing them to seal, hence no compression. They cleaned the carbon for $250 and he did not know how they did it. Not much help for me. But, it indicated the seals might not be gone, but covered in carbon.
Again I called mechanics I knew an they recommended pouring transmission fluid into the carb, cranking it, and letting it sit. I've also read the pump that supplies oil to the seals is a known problem for these motors. The seals I could find were over $500. But as I said, couldn't find any for a 78/79.
And for that price, I know where another 1980 RX7 is sitting with a good motor and trans without a title for $500. Alot of the people on this site seem to know what they are talking about, so I thought I'd ask you guys...What else could be the problem? Has anyone else encountered this exact same issues? What did you do to fix it? Would it be smarter to just swap the motor or am I missing something stupid and easily fixed?
I can tell you the motor is not beat, it is clean and looks to be taken care of. Only things missing are an AC Pump, no big deal. The mileage reads 57,800 but they don't have the 100 thousandth number, so I have no idea how many times it could have rolled over and could have a couple hundred thousand miles.
Oil in the car was clean, no gas, not burnt, no water, no metal flakes. So, what can I do? I really appreciate any and all comments, suggestions or similar stories. I thank you for your help and apologize for the long post, I just wanted you to know as much about the car as I do. Thanks.
I'm new, just joined the site when a 1978 RX7 came into my posession. First, I'd like to say before anyone replies calling me stupid, I know that the RX7's are considered 79's because they didn't make it to the states til then, but the badges on my car all read 1978.
So, I'll give you the story and the problem and see what you guys can come up with. My younger brother gave me the car. It was given to him about a year ago. The guy who gave it to him is a close friend.
He tells us that his girlfriend had the car, and couldn't drive it in the snow. She parked it one fall, it ran fine and had lots of power/acceleration. She got herself a 4x4 subaru and never looked back. The car sat in his yard for 2 years. His father wanted it gone, so he traded it to my brother. My brother got the car, and parked it in his yard.
He drives a rare Subaru XT6 and really never had any interest in the RX7. So, as far as I know, the car has sat for a total of 3 years. My brother gave me the car, and the only reason I was interested is because the body is 100% There is no rust, dents, or rot. The paint is faded (red) but who cares. The interior is "decent" the usual stuff when a car sits, cracked dashboard, dirty, a small odor. But, everything works, all guages, lights, buttons, etc
. It has the 12A rotory bolted up to an automatic. Many mechanics have told me not to even bother with it because its a rotory. But others have told thats only because they don't understand them, anything they don't understand must be junk, right? They've used these motors for years and used in many a race car...so it seems common sense to me that they can't be all THAT bad.
So, I towed the car home and started checking it out. First, it was missing half the plug wires, my older brother is a mechanic and had the book for the car. We got the firing order correct, made sure all wires, coils and plugs were sparking. Second, we made sure the fuel pump was kicking on and staying on. Last we checked alot of vaccum hoses to ensure they were hooked up where they belonged. I slapped a new battery in it and went to try it when I noticed the key was broken. My brother pulled the back of the ignition so we could start it with a screwdriver.
We had assumed the car was filled with old gas, so we dumped a bit down the carb and tried it. It cranked over, sprayed gas out of the top of the carb, and coughed. My brother took this as a timing problem. After checking a few things everything seemed normal. We inspected the tank to find it was empty. I poured a few gallons into the tank, turned it on and waited for the pump to start and get quiet, indicating it was indeed pumping fuel. After, I pumped it a few times and my brother verified it was spraying into the carb. We tried it again. When trying to start, it seems to have very very little compression. While cranking I hit the gas a few times and it seemed it was trying to start but just couldn't.
My brother pulled the plugs and they were soaked, and after, the fuel leaked from the plug holes. it wasn't pouring out, but it wasn't just trickling either. After 2 days of playing with the car, my brother came to the conclusion that it was possible the seals (Apex?) were bad. He said they were made of rubber, and since the car had sat for 3 years in the weather, it was very possible the seals dryed out and weren't sealing at all. I called my father (also a mechanic) and another guy I know who owns an RX7, they both verified that if the seals were indeed bad from sitting, it would have little if any compression and won't start. They both recommended pouring some oil into the carb, cranking it, and letting it sit.
They said if it was the seals, the oil would bring them back to life slightly and the compression would get a tiny bit better, and if this happened, we knew what the problem was. After doing some research, I can't even find Apex seals for this car, they were all 1985+ and I also came across a forum of a guy saying his car had the same problem without sitting, he took it to a shop, they said carbon had built up on the seals, weren't allowing them to seal, hence no compression. They cleaned the carbon for $250 and he did not know how they did it. Not much help for me. But, it indicated the seals might not be gone, but covered in carbon.
Again I called mechanics I knew an they recommended pouring transmission fluid into the carb, cranking it, and letting it sit. I've also read the pump that supplies oil to the seals is a known problem for these motors. The seals I could find were over $500. But as I said, couldn't find any for a 78/79.
And for that price, I know where another 1980 RX7 is sitting with a good motor and trans without a title for $500. Alot of the people on this site seem to know what they are talking about, so I thought I'd ask you guys...What else could be the problem? Has anyone else encountered this exact same issues? What did you do to fix it? Would it be smarter to just swap the motor or am I missing something stupid and easily fixed?
I can tell you the motor is not beat, it is clean and looks to be taken care of. Only things missing are an AC Pump, no big deal. The mileage reads 57,800 but they don't have the 100 thousandth number, so I have no idea how many times it could have rolled over and could have a couple hundred thousand miles.
Oil in the car was clean, no gas, not burnt, no water, no metal flakes. So, what can I do? I really appreciate any and all comments, suggestions or similar stories. I thank you for your help and apologize for the long post, I just wanted you to know as much about the car as I do. Thanks.
12-16-07, 09:25 PM
#7
just another joe
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make sure the starting system is up to par. if the motor doesnt spin fast enough it will not start. i.e. good charge on the battery, good cables, good starter. good luck.
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12-18-07, 12:10 AM
#8
MagickNinja
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I already dumped the ATF in the motor before posting this thread. I went out today and tried to start the car. I could feel the car moving, indicating more compression, but sadly still didn't start.
I've seen photos on this site with a plate attached to the driver strut tower holding what looks to be 3 coils. My car does not have this plate, and only runs 2 coils. Did someone modify their car or am I missing a coil/plate? Also, as I've mentioned, my book is very vague on timing/firing order. Can anyone post a picture or diagram showing what wires go where?
I can't help but feel like this is just something stupid. Anyone have any ideas why the gas is spraying out of the top of the carb? I've enclosed a pic of my motor. Thanks again.
EDIT: I know the one spark plug is missing. The picture was just taken before we installed the 4th. It is present now when I try to crank. I just thought I'd clarify so someone didn't think I was trying to start a car with a plug missing.
I've seen photos on this site with a plate attached to the driver strut tower holding what looks to be 3 coils. My car does not have this plate, and only runs 2 coils. Did someone modify their car or am I missing a coil/plate? Also, as I've mentioned, my book is very vague on timing/firing order. Can anyone post a picture or diagram showing what wires go where?
I can't help but feel like this is just something stupid. Anyone have any ideas why the gas is spraying out of the top of the carb? I've enclosed a pic of my motor. Thanks again.
EDIT: I know the one spark plug is missing. The picture was just taken before we installed the 4th. It is present now when I try to crank. I just thought I'd clarify so someone didn't think I was trying to start a car with a plug missing.
12-18-07, 01:51 AM
#9
MagickNinja
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After reading for about 3 hours I put 2 and 2 together and realized the photo from "removing the rats nest" showed his motor setup for the direct fire ignition. After lots of reading and discussing with my brother, I think we are going to remove all emissions, the OMP, and convert to direct fire ignition.
But the way the car sits, it should run. There is spark, there is fuel, its not seized.
I'm getting frustrated and if I can't get it running soon it'll be sent to the junkyard.
BTW, will a 13b from similar year drop into this car?
But the way the car sits, it should run. There is spark, there is fuel, its not seized.
I'm getting frustrated and if I can't get it running soon it'll be sent to the junkyard.
BTW, will a 13b from similar year drop into this car?
12-18-07, 09:50 AM
#11
Lives on the Forum
Make sure that each spark plug wire is routed to the correct spark plug. There should be a marking on the cap, and corresponding markings on the side of the engine. T1, T2, L1, L2. L1 goes to L1, etc. Fuel spraying up out of the carb sounds like you've got something wrong there. Start with that.
If that checks out, then clean off the spark plugs and pick up a can of Seafoam. Pour a couple of ounces of seafoam down the carb, make sure the battery has a very good charge on it, then crank it over.
A lot of these cars go to the junkyard simply because they flooded and nobody could get them started again. Once flooded, they show all indications of zero compression which means a blown motor. Deflooding a rotary is something between an art and science, and often a bit of luck thrown in.
Anyway, try that out. Out of all of the different deflooding methods, I stumbled onto the seafoam for this use and haven't looked back. It's worked for me every time.
Best of luck to you, and welcome to the forum.
If that checks out, then clean off the spark plugs and pick up a can of Seafoam. Pour a couple of ounces of seafoam down the carb, make sure the battery has a very good charge on it, then crank it over.
A lot of these cars go to the junkyard simply because they flooded and nobody could get them started again. Once flooded, they show all indications of zero compression which means a blown motor. Deflooding a rotary is something between an art and science, and often a bit of luck thrown in.
Anyway, try that out. Out of all of the different deflooding methods, I stumbled onto the seafoam for this use and haven't looked back. It's worked for me every time.
Best of luck to you, and welcome to the forum.
12-18-07, 10:48 AM
#12
Start with the carb, don't start tearing parts off yet. If the carb is pouring fuel out the top, either the fuel cut solenoid isn't plugged or it's non-op or the carb needs gone through. At the very least the floats may be sticking.
I'll be happy to give you a provisionary welcome, providing you start using paragraphs.
If you haven't read through the no start thread and Sterling's carb write ups in the FAQs, do so. Those will give you a sound basis to begin trouble shooting.
Btw, where's your dipstick?
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I'll be happy to give you a provisionary welcome, providing you start using paragraphs.
If you haven't read through the no start thread and Sterling's carb write ups in the FAQs, do so. Those will give you a sound basis to begin trouble shooting.Btw, where's your dipstick?
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12-18-07, 01:37 PM
#13
MagickNinja
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First off, I appreciate everyones help. Second, since the first post every post has had paragraphs and third...the dipstick is right where it should be, it can clearly be seen sticking up out of the motor right near the plugs on the firewall side.
I have spent hours reading the no start thread and found only a long arguement about when and when not to use the ATF treatment. Seeing how I already did that, it doesn't help. And as I've stated, it sprays out of the top, doesn't pour. But it's obvious that it's flooding. I'm going to pull the carb today and tear into it. A rebuild kit is only $30.
It looks to me that the previous owner must've been to this site or a similar one. It looks like they were starting to make changes to the motor and just stopped. I've found a piece of wire hooked into the factory wiring harness that runs to nothing. It's just neatly wrapped up and sat aside. It can be seen in the pic above, to the far bottom right.
Also someone has re-located the oil cooler. I only figured this out when noticing 2 hoses cut coming out of the firewall, at first glance I thought it was the heater hoses. But after a quick inspection realized the heater hoses were intact and it was something else. As I was staring under the hood, my brother climbed underneath the car and said the oil cooler was re-located.
I have an Optima circular cell battery hooked up, and it's 100%. I've verified all plugs and wires are sparking. And the spark is a very good spark, not weak or discolored. So I'm thinking it must be a fuel issue.
Again, does anyone know what 13b's will and will not fit into this chassis? Even if I get this motor going, it will be in it temporarily. I absolutlely hate automatic transmissions, and as I've said I have access to a 13b with a 5speed and wiring harness. I am still unsure at this point if it is carb or F.I. since my buddy just had a baby and is hard to get ahold of right now.
I'll be re-doing this car from the ground up. I'm going to record everything we do and their outcomes, including mistakes. Upon waking up this morning I have a renewed motivation to make this car work, whether it wants to or not. I'll post the entire adventure if anyone thinks it will be useful.
I'll post tonight what I find out about the carb. Thanks again.
I have spent hours reading the no start thread and found only a long arguement about when and when not to use the ATF treatment. Seeing how I already did that, it doesn't help. And as I've stated, it sprays out of the top, doesn't pour. But it's obvious that it's flooding. I'm going to pull the carb today and tear into it. A rebuild kit is only $30.
It looks to me that the previous owner must've been to this site or a similar one. It looks like they were starting to make changes to the motor and just stopped. I've found a piece of wire hooked into the factory wiring harness that runs to nothing. It's just neatly wrapped up and sat aside. It can be seen in the pic above, to the far bottom right.
Also someone has re-located the oil cooler. I only figured this out when noticing 2 hoses cut coming out of the firewall, at first glance I thought it was the heater hoses. But after a quick inspection realized the heater hoses were intact and it was something else. As I was staring under the hood, my brother climbed underneath the car and said the oil cooler was re-located.
I have an Optima circular cell battery hooked up, and it's 100%. I've verified all plugs and wires are sparking. And the spark is a very good spark, not weak or discolored. So I'm thinking it must be a fuel issue.
Again, does anyone know what 13b's will and will not fit into this chassis? Even if I get this motor going, it will be in it temporarily. I absolutlely hate automatic transmissions, and as I've said I have access to a 13b with a 5speed and wiring harness. I am still unsure at this point if it is carb or F.I. since my buddy just had a baby and is hard to get ahold of right now.
I'll be re-doing this car from the ground up. I'm going to record everything we do and their outcomes, including mistakes. Upon waking up this morning I have a renewed motivation to make this car work, whether it wants to or not. I'll post the entire adventure if anyone thinks it will be useful.
I'll post tonight what I find out about the carb. Thanks again.
12-18-07, 05:57 PM
#14
7less for now!
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you fill port is missing is what he was trying to say!!! all 13bs will fit with a small amount of work. Except the rew which is alot of work. gotta have the right front cover for mounthing though
12-19-07, 02:58 AM
#15
Lives on the Forum
There are a great many threads on the 12a/13b swap, just search a bit. Some new information that might not be there is that www.re-speed.com has a new crossmember which has many advantages, one of which is that it will simplify the install of the new motor. Check out their website...
12-19-07, 03:34 PM
#16
MagickNinja
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I couldn't take the carb off yesterday. It poured rain all day. I had started and when disconnecting hoses and such, the inlets were all corroded and clogged. But the rain didn't permit me to finish, I covered everything and went inside, I'm going to try again today.
I have the parts your saying are missing, they are just sitting in the front seat with the air cleaner and such. It was removed when I got the car, I guess my younger brother tried to get it running and gave up much easier than I.
I did search and read through the threads and they aren't very specific about what years will fit and won't. I've been told 13b's from 1st gen won't fit, but the F.I will. I've been told no, thats wrong, the F.I won't fit, but the 1st gens will. I've been told the 1st gen 12A is a better motor and I should stick with it. It's all very confusing and I don't know who is right.
My buddy is offering me a 13b F.I. with the complete ECU, computer, wiring harness, 5 speed trans, slave cylinder and line, oil cooler and driveshaft for $450. Is this a good deal?
I'm more worried about the trans, will a newer 13B transmission bolt up to the 1st gen 12A? If it does, I know another guy that said he has a 1988 13B 5 speed trans, the intake from air box to motor(he sold the block), and slave cylinder he'll sell me for $65.
I am considering buying the complete motor and trans for $450 but not for an immediate swap. I'd like to sit the motor on a stand, go through it, add better parts to it over time, and when it's complete drop it in. But again I've been told the 12A's are better and can be faster. I'm going to get it running, and if you guys say its possible, bolt up the newer 5 speed to it. I'll just buy the parts from both people, nothing wrong with having an extra 5 speed and driveshaft laying around right?
I'm gonna go search some more on this subject, but my first try didn't yield any specific information. Thanks again guys, you've already proved to be a great help. I wish I could do something to help anybody else but I'm afraid my expertise is in music and guitars, not cars.
I have the parts your saying are missing, they are just sitting in the front seat with the air cleaner and such. It was removed when I got the car, I guess my younger brother tried to get it running and gave up much easier than I.
I did search and read through the threads and they aren't very specific about what years will fit and won't. I've been told 13b's from 1st gen won't fit, but the F.I will. I've been told no, thats wrong, the F.I won't fit, but the 1st gens will. I've been told the 1st gen 12A is a better motor and I should stick with it. It's all very confusing and I don't know who is right.
My buddy is offering me a 13b F.I. with the complete ECU, computer, wiring harness, 5 speed trans, slave cylinder and line, oil cooler and driveshaft for $450. Is this a good deal?
I'm more worried about the trans, will a newer 13B transmission bolt up to the 1st gen 12A? If it does, I know another guy that said he has a 1988 13B 5 speed trans, the intake from air box to motor(he sold the block), and slave cylinder he'll sell me for $65.
I am considering buying the complete motor and trans for $450 but not for an immediate swap. I'd like to sit the motor on a stand, go through it, add better parts to it over time, and when it's complete drop it in. But again I've been told the 12A's are better and can be faster. I'm going to get it running, and if you guys say its possible, bolt up the newer 5 speed to it. I'll just buy the parts from both people, nothing wrong with having an extra 5 speed and driveshaft laying around right?
I'm gonna go search some more on this subject, but my first try didn't yield any specific information. Thanks again guys, you've already proved to be a great help. I wish I could do something to help anybody else but I'm afraid my expertise is in music and guitars, not cars.
12-19-07, 04:24 PM
#17
I don't get why someone would remove the air cleaner, oil fill tube, and one park plug. From the look of all the leaves all over the engine bay, I hope the hood wasn't off the car the three years it sat. If your really trying to get this engine running, I would but new plugs, wires, pionts (78-79 had pionts), and fuel filter. When you try to start the car, lay all 4 plugs (still attached to the plug wires) on the strut tower. Spin the engine over to see if they spark. If only two from the L1 and L2 from the cap sparks, you should have enough fire to get it running. The trailing ignition only works part time on the early models.
12-20-07, 08:52 AM
#18
Burning Oil-Grinding 3rd
+1
Check the points.
I am having trouble reading your posts. Answer these questions.
Have you checked compression? Cheep way or with a tester?
Do you have spark?
Have you changed the plugs? (use anti seize and NGK plugs)
have you checked the points? Cleaned them?
Have you changed the Cap, Rotor, Wires?
Have you pulled the fuel line at the carb to check for fuel?
I would not take the carb off yet. If you think the floats are stuck and flowing to much, just tap it with a wrench.
What is the Vin # and Build date of the car?
12-20-07, 05:56 PM
#19
MagickNinja
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well, like I've already said, when I got the car half the plugs and wires were missing. the photo was taken as we were putting it back together, and the 1 plug was removed to test the compression as indicated in the thread. Upon turning over the motor my brother distinctly heard 3 PSSSHHH sounds which, according to this site, is a good thing. And I've also said that after doing the ATF treatment the car had more compression than before.
I have said many times that YES, I have checked every plug, every wire, the cap, the rotor button and points. When sitting the plugs on the chassis and cranking it, it has spark. And I have a $100 Optima battery hooked up to it. I'm very confident in saying that it has good spark.
While I was disconnecting the carb, I put it back together because my brother suggested we go get some starting fluid. I checked the hoses coming from the firewall into the carb and they are allowing gas to flow, and the gas isn't dirty or anything, it looked clean.
My brother inspected the cap, distributor and points. He said the cap looked fairly new, and the rotor button and points all looked to be in good condition to him. Again, I do not think this is a spark problem.
Everytime we try to start the car, it seems to flood, and sometimes sprays gas up out of the top of the carb. Lastnight we pulled the plugs, cleaned them, and I cranked it over letting the gas leak out the bottom plug holes. After we put some 3n1 oil into the plug holes. Everytime we try to start, it seems to flood. This is why the earlier guys said to pull and clean the carb 1st.
the fuel filter is fairly new. No issues there. Also yesterday when cranking the car over, the battery started getting low and a screeching sound could be heard coming from the motor. It sounds similar to the sound of a starter not spinning up, but the starter is fine. It sounded internal. It only does this once in awhile, I haven't paid attention to when but it just might be when the battery gets low it does this.
And no, the hood has been on the car the entire time it sat. I'm not stupid.
I have said many times that YES, I have checked every plug, every wire, the cap, the rotor button and points. When sitting the plugs on the chassis and cranking it, it has spark. And I have a $100 Optima battery hooked up to it. I'm very confident in saying that it has good spark.
While I was disconnecting the carb, I put it back together because my brother suggested we go get some starting fluid. I checked the hoses coming from the firewall into the carb and they are allowing gas to flow, and the gas isn't dirty or anything, it looked clean.
My brother inspected the cap, distributor and points. He said the cap looked fairly new, and the rotor button and points all looked to be in good condition to him. Again, I do not think this is a spark problem.
Everytime we try to start the car, it seems to flood, and sometimes sprays gas up out of the top of the carb. Lastnight we pulled the plugs, cleaned them, and I cranked it over letting the gas leak out the bottom plug holes. After we put some 3n1 oil into the plug holes. Everytime we try to start, it seems to flood. This is why the earlier guys said to pull and clean the carb 1st.
the fuel filter is fairly new. No issues there. Also yesterday when cranking the car over, the battery started getting low and a screeching sound could be heard coming from the motor. It sounds similar to the sound of a starter not spinning up, but the starter is fine. It sounded internal. It only does this once in awhile, I haven't paid attention to when but it just might be when the battery gets low it does this.
And no, the hood has been on the car the entire time it sat. I'm not stupid.
12-20-07, 07:07 PM
#20
With the detail that you've gone through at this point, my next step would be to pull the airhorn off the top of the carb, pull/clean the jets, air bleeds, and the needles and seats. Sorry about the dipstick, couldn't really see it in the pic. Knew someting was missing and didn't realise it was the oil fill tube.
12-20-07, 11:50 PM
#21
MagickNinja
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trochoid: It's no problem at all bro, I wasn't being a jerk, just confused on what you were talking about. And I've known it to be common practice to remove the air cover and box and such when trying to get a car started, all that stuff just gets in the way. The filler was off when I got the car, I don't know why it was removed.
I know I may seem alittle testy and its only because people on this site constantly preach researching and reading before asking dumb questions....yet I've been asked about the spark like 4 times. All the answers I have already written out in complete detail. So it's frustrating when people skip reading what I've written and ask the same question over and over. I appreciate the help, but it's frustrating when people do that, its like c'mon, practice what you preach. And I've researched through every thread about these cars and are vague and non specific about alot of things. Thats why I asked about motor swaps and if the 13B tranny will bolt up to the 12A.
I'm at the point where I believe the problem is completely fuel related. As I said, everytime we try to start it seems to flood. I'm going to go through the carb and rebuild or swap it out for another, once I get the car to fire up, I'll spend the few hundred and do a complete tune up of the complete system.
I know I may seem alittle testy and its only because people on this site constantly preach researching and reading before asking dumb questions....yet I've been asked about the spark like 4 times. All the answers I have already written out in complete detail. So it's frustrating when people skip reading what I've written and ask the same question over and over. I appreciate the help, but it's frustrating when people do that, its like c'mon, practice what you preach. And I've researched through every thread about these cars and are vague and non specific about alot of things. Thats why I asked about motor swaps and if the 13B tranny will bolt up to the 12A.
I'm at the point where I believe the problem is completely fuel related. As I said, everytime we try to start it seems to flood. I'm going to go through the carb and rebuild or swap it out for another, once I get the car to fire up, I'll spend the few hundred and do a complete tune up of the complete system.
12-21-07, 12:06 AM
#22
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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my 80 SA had a screeching/howling when turning over with a lower battery. it was the starter. it worked fine, just made that noise every once in a while.
12-21-07, 04:04 AM
#24
trochoid: It's no problem at all bro, I wasn't being a jerk, just confused on what you were talking about. And I've known it to be common practice to remove the air cover and box and such when trying to get a car started, all that stuff just gets in the way. The filler was off when I got the car, I don't know why it was removed.
I know I may seem alittle testy and its only because people on this site constantly preach researching and reading before asking dumb questions....yet I've been asked about the spark like 4 times. All the answers I have already written out in complete detail. So it's frustrating when people skip reading what I've written and ask the same question over and over. I appreciate the help, but it's frustrating when people do that, its like c'mon, practice what you preach. And I've researched through every thread about these cars and are vague and non specific about alot of things. Thats why I asked about motor swaps and if the 13B tranny will bolt up to the 12A.
I'm at the point where I believe the problem is completely fuel related. As I said, everytime we try to start it seems to flood. I'm going to go through the carb and rebuild or swap it out for another, once I get the car to fire up, I'll spend the few hundred and do a complete tune up of the complete system.
I know I may seem alittle testy and its only because people on this site constantly preach researching and reading before asking dumb questions....yet I've been asked about the spark like 4 times. All the answers I have already written out in complete detail. So it's frustrating when people skip reading what I've written and ask the same question over and over. I appreciate the help, but it's frustrating when people do that, its like c'mon, practice what you preach. And I've researched through every thread about these cars and are vague and non specific about alot of things. Thats why I asked about motor swaps and if the 13B tranny will bolt up to the 12A.
I'm at the point where I believe the problem is completely fuel related. As I said, everytime we try to start it seems to flood. I'm going to go through the carb and rebuild or swap it out for another, once I get the car to fire up, I'll spend the few hundred and do a complete tune up of the complete system.
As far as engine and tranny swaps, this is where a 1st gen has great adapatablility. One can install every rotary engine in Mazdas lineup in our cars. Some take more work/mods than others. As far as the trannys, any one will bolt up to both 1st gen engines with the exception of the TII, FD and early 12A top mount starter ones. Depending on the tranny chosen some may require shifter mods. Don't recommend anything earlier than an 81 due to the case and shifter position differences or earlier than 83 due to a smaller clutch diameter. The FB tailshaft can be swapped on to the 86-88 NA trannys for to maintain factory shifter postion, 89-91 will not take the tailshaft swap so the shiftr position will be about an inch rearward from stock.
Unfortunately, since you have an SA, the tranny and shifter positon is different than the FBs, the tailshaft will not swap and you have a 215mm vs the later 225 mm clutch, which all NA rotarys have form 83 on. You can mount the later trannys, using your flywheel and clutch. Not sure where the shifter will end up though.
12-21-07, 09:30 AM
#25
Burning Oil-Grinding 3rd
I thought Grumpy was Sterlings job.
Before you do anything else, go check the tail pipe (you say WTF) But you never know if it is clogged up.
Next buy another set of plugs, Once a set is wet they need to be cleaned and dried very well before using again. If you can, get a set of the Denso plugs.
Have you charged the Optmia? Another thing to do it put a Jumpstart Charger on it while trying to start the car. 200 amp boost and a good battery can do wonders for a car.
My old stand by is the pull start, Fustezed with cars all day and then pulled them 1/4 mile to start them, Only had one not start with a pull and it had a Dead rear rotor.
On compression, 3 phussus is good but put your thumb over the hole and make sure it has pressure. I did not see it but you did test front and rear?
When you turn the Key on, is fuel running into the carb? or only when you pump it?
We ask the same questions 5 times cause you should check them 5 times, I have pulled Plug wires that had good spark and them have Green all over the contacts. Melted Rotor Caps, One Cap contact burnt but hard to see, The cheep caps with AL contacts that get crusty.