Help Everyone give me advice
06-17-05, 07:04 PM
#1
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Help Everyone give me advice
Ok guys as you all know the engine blew up 6 hrs after I got it back. Now I need pics of what blown engines look like. I also need to know the diagnostic break down of when a rotary blows. The place is telling me it's my fault saying I got on it and stuff saying the fuel pump leaned the engine out and blew it. But the rotor welded to the plates so I'm like what. They said they would fix it a month ago when I had back in the shop the very next day but now they're saying no. So guys please help me with this please.
06-17-05, 07:29 PM
#3
As you know the rotary can 'blow' in a couple ways (broken apex seal, spun bearings, failed coolant seals, etc.). I haven't heard of a rotor getting welded to the housing though. Sometimes with a rebuild (w/ new bearings), the rotor bearing can basically weld to the e-shaft and really tear things up (I think cdrad51 had this happen). How were you driving it? It should have be driven easy (below 3-4000 rpm, no reving, no WOT, etc.) You had oil in it, right? 
What were you doing for OMP (stock or premix)? Did you notice anything with your oil pressure? They maybe didn't get the key in right to the oil pump (easy to do). Maybe the pump worked for awhile then quit (killing the engine).
They may be trying to covre themselves. I don't see hgow leaning out would do it (especially if you were driving it the way that you were suppose to). Usually if detonation does occur, it usually breaks seals (apex). The broken seals then tear up the engine. I don't see how anything would get welded unless it didn't have lubrication. Sorry to hear about the engine, man. Good luck.
Kent
What were you doing for OMP (stock or premix)? Did you notice anything with your oil pressure? They maybe didn't get the key in right to the oil pump (easy to do). Maybe the pump worked for awhile then quit (killing the engine).They may be trying to covre themselves. I don't see hgow leaning out would do it (especially if you were driving it the way that you were suppose to). Usually if detonation does occur, it usually breaks seals (apex). The broken seals then tear up the engine. I don't see how anything would get welded unless it didn't have lubrication. Sorry to hear about the engine, man. Good luck.
Kent
06-17-05, 07:55 PM
#4
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IT had Atkins Rotary racing apex seals in it. They were still intact when the engine was ripped apart. I didn't drive it hard. The mechanic on numerous occasions when driving it around as taking it to 6 7K rpms. It had royal purple oil in it. The side seals were gone I believe if I'm correct. The oil pressure was dropping as it was getting up to the engine cutting out. Then when the engine stopped running as I was driving oil pressure was gone. The seals were all grooved up and so was the rotor housings. The side plates were burnt and ****. Thats what I know. They said it was the fuel pump. I don't remember the fuel pump not going out while it was driving and running. But when I got to the shop it wouldn't even turn on when the key was in the ignition. So I don 't know I want to crawl underneath the car and have a look see at it.
06-17-05, 08:10 PM
#5
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Sorry to say it Yapa, but you're getting fucked. The problems you describe are almost certainly due to poor lubrication, not fuel starvation. I'm not sure what you can do about it. Do you have a warrenty in writing? If so you could pay another more reputable rotary shop to look at the motor and put their thoughts on what happened to it in writing. That way you can go to small claims court with at least some evidence to back up your position.
06-17-05, 08:12 PM
#6
Well the fuel pump will only run with the engine running, unless you bypassed the fuel pump relay. It still sounds to me like you lost oil pressure, they probably didn't get the oil pump key in right or an oil cooler line blew. I really don't see how loss of fuel would cause such catastrophic damage. Under what conditions did it die (cruising down highway, reving, driving around town, etc.)?
And why was your mechanic beating on a new engine like that !?! He shuld know better especially if he has experience with rotaries. Maybe he is to blame. Things like this are hard to prove since Atkins built the engine and tore it down. You probably don't have a third party witness that can really say what the engine was like when they tore it down. Hopefully they will cover the warranty on it.
Edit: I guess it wasn't an Atkins engine, but had Atkins seals.
And why was your mechanic beating on a new engine like that !?! He shuld know better especially if he has experience with rotaries. Maybe he is to blame. Things like this are hard to prove since Atkins built the engine and tore it down. You probably don't have a third party witness that can really say what the engine was like when they tore it down. Hopefully they will cover the warranty on it.
Edit: I guess it wasn't an Atkins engine, but had Atkins seals.
Last edited by gsl-se addict; 06-17-05 at 08:16 PM.
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06-17-05, 10:55 PM
#9
Ok, fuel starvation wouldnt have anything to do with that IMO. Something wasnt getting lubricated, especially on the side plates like that. INSIDE the combustion chamber is where the evidence for running to lean would be, not OUTSIDE the combusion chamber in the "lubricated" areas.
I would personally say that it sounds like the oil passages werent cleaned all the way out (or something just wasnt lubricated, maybe the oil pump wasnt working properly, maybe this, maybe that). Either way, it didnt lubricate something, which caused metal/metal contact, thus creating more and more metal particles mixing with the oil which would cause all kinds of fun because the metal shards in there would be like sandpaper in every bearing and on every seal.
However it happened, it wasnt the fuel pump IMO. Think about this, how many people here have had a fuel pump die on them while running down the road? Or even ran out of gas? I know I have, and I just put a new pump in and started it right back up again. My engine wasnt blown after that. Its happened to me on piston and rotary engines.
Basically, the shop is to blame. They put the damn thing together, and there was an internal failure which had nothing to do with the externals of the engine other than POSSIBLY the way it was driven, which according to you, was also the shop riding it hard. IMO, its their fault, they need to make it right.
~T.J.
PS - About him running it hard like that, there are a few different schools of thought about breaking in a new engine, and some people think its better to run the **** out of it when its new. Some people say drive it like you normally would, and some say to treat it gentle. Ive even heard combinations of them. He may just be one who believe that you should run the **** out of it.
I would personally say that it sounds like the oil passages werent cleaned all the way out (or something just wasnt lubricated, maybe the oil pump wasnt working properly, maybe this, maybe that). Either way, it didnt lubricate something, which caused metal/metal contact, thus creating more and more metal particles mixing with the oil which would cause all kinds of fun because the metal shards in there would be like sandpaper in every bearing and on every seal.
However it happened, it wasnt the fuel pump IMO. Think about this, how many people here have had a fuel pump die on them while running down the road? Or even ran out of gas? I know I have, and I just put a new pump in and started it right back up again. My engine wasnt blown after that. Its happened to me on piston and rotary engines.
Basically, the shop is to blame. They put the damn thing together, and there was an internal failure which had nothing to do with the externals of the engine other than POSSIBLY the way it was driven, which according to you, was also the shop riding it hard. IMO, its their fault, they need to make it right.
~T.J.
PS - About him running it hard like that, there are a few different schools of thought about breaking in a new engine, and some people think its better to run the **** out of it when its new. Some people say drive it like you normally would, and some say to treat it gentle. Ive even heard combinations of them. He may just be one who believe that you should run the **** out of it.
06-18-05, 06:04 AM
#10
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It's a lube problem. Maybe an oil pump or restricted oil passage. I once had that problem with a boinger I put together with silicon gasket sealer: the silicone squeezed over an oil passage when I torqued the head and restricted oil flow. Now I only use grease on gaskets because it doesn't set and the oil can wash it away so the passages are open. Always break an engine in gently, but give it variety in RPM and load.
B
B
06-18-05, 08:39 AM
#11
Originally Posted by YapaKanichi
IT had Atkins Rotary racing apex seals in it. They were still intact when the engine was ripped apart. I didn't drive it hard. The mechanic on numerous occasions when driving it around as taking it to 6 7K rpms. It had royal purple oil in it. The side seals were gone I believe if I'm correct. The oil pressure was dropping as it was getting up to the engine cutting out. Then when the engine stopped running as I was driving oil pressure was gone. The seals were all grooved up and so was the rotor housings. The side plates were burnt and ****. Thats what I know. They said it was the fuel pump. I don't remember the fuel pump not going out while it was driving and running. But when I got to the shop it wouldn't even turn on when the key was in the ignition. So I don 't know I want to crawl underneath the car and have a look see at it.
06-18-05, 10:24 AM
#12
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Fuel starvation is the lamest excuse I have ever heard. When you run out of fuel, the engine quits running. That's just dumb. If it were a weak pump, it would have run ratty, cutting out at high rpms etc.
And, if it had died from detontation, it would have taken out an apex seal, and you would have heard it.
That's just BS from the shop.
And, if it had died from detontation, it would have taken out an apex seal, and you would have heard it.
That's just BS from the shop.
06-21-05, 06:49 PM
#13
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He's trying to say that because they were Atkins Racing Seals that can hold up to 45 lbs of boost that when it ran lean that instead of taking out the apex seal it took out the side seals.
06-21-05, 07:49 PM
#14
What do the bearings and e-shaft look like? If they are still healthy, then I would question the oil problem. If the side seals were gone and not the bearings, it could be from a fuel issue. Were the injectors serviced for the rebuild?
Another possibility is lack of lubrication in the combution chamber itself. Was the oil metering system working properly? Did they lube the irons suffciently during assembly? If there was no prelube in the combustion chamber, reving to 6-7k would take out side seals rather quickly.
FWIW, the Atkins racing seals are carbon seals, not steel. The carbon ones are not recommended for boost. The steel one's have been taken to 45 psi of boost by someone on this forum, don't remember who it was though.
From my personal experience, last week I tore down my 12a 1/2bp-1/2 sp rebuild. I bought a gasket kit and used parts from various engines I had in the shop. On initial start up I had no oil pressure and lots of smoke. Way too much smoke and it was all oil. After 5-6 hours of running time, mostly idleing, the smoke wasn't getting any better. It got to the point that I would have to pull the plugs out and clean them every 5 mins, due to oil fouling. Made trying to tune the Holley a bitch.
Upon tear down I found that I had not installed the o-ring between the front cover and iron that seals the oil galley feeding the engine directly from the oil pump. All 4 bearings and the e-shaft were worn excessively. The e-shaft was scored and beginning to show signs of heat and all the bearings were showing lots of brass. This was not the way they looked when I put the motor together.
The excessive oil burning was due to worn out, flat oil control o-rings. The combustion chambers and the entire exhaust were full of oil, to the point I had oil dripping out of the tail pipe. No mosquitos in my neighbor hood this summer. I did have some oil pressure in the system, even with the o-ring missing. Otherwise, the oil coller, which was new, would not have filled and I wouldn't have had oil bypassing the oil control rings. The side seals were fine, they were over lubed.
The whole point of this long post is summed up as follows.
1. If it was a fuel issue, and you do have the carbon apex seals, the carbon seals should have gone before the side seals.
2. If it was an oiling issue, pump chain, oil pump key, whatever, the bearings and e-shaft should show excessive wear or damage. An overheated e-shaft will take on a permanent color change similiar to the oem heat treating on the edge of the rotor lobes.
3. Over reving. This would still be tied to a fuel issue and detonation.
4. Lastly, it could be an oiling issue in the combustion chamber itself. But that would almost certainly have to be from a complete lack of assembly lube.
Another possibility is lack of lubrication in the combution chamber itself. Was the oil metering system working properly? Did they lube the irons suffciently during assembly? If there was no prelube in the combustion chamber, reving to 6-7k would take out side seals rather quickly.
FWIW, the Atkins racing seals are carbon seals, not steel. The carbon ones are not recommended for boost. The steel one's have been taken to 45 psi of boost by someone on this forum, don't remember who it was though.
From my personal experience, last week I tore down my 12a 1/2bp-1/2 sp rebuild. I bought a gasket kit and used parts from various engines I had in the shop. On initial start up I had no oil pressure and lots of smoke. Way too much smoke and it was all oil. After 5-6 hours of running time, mostly idleing, the smoke wasn't getting any better. It got to the point that I would have to pull the plugs out and clean them every 5 mins, due to oil fouling. Made trying to tune the Holley a bitch.
Upon tear down I found that I had not installed the o-ring between the front cover and iron that seals the oil galley feeding the engine directly from the oil pump. All 4 bearings and the e-shaft were worn excessively. The e-shaft was scored and beginning to show signs of heat and all the bearings were showing lots of brass. This was not the way they looked when I put the motor together.
The excessive oil burning was due to worn out, flat oil control o-rings. The combustion chambers and the entire exhaust were full of oil, to the point I had oil dripping out of the tail pipe. No mosquitos in my neighbor hood this summer. I did have some oil pressure in the system, even with the o-ring missing. Otherwise, the oil coller, which was new, would not have filled and I wouldn't have had oil bypassing the oil control rings. The side seals were fine, they were over lubed.
The whole point of this long post is summed up as follows.
1. If it was a fuel issue, and you do have the carbon apex seals, the carbon seals should have gone before the side seals.
2. If it was an oiling issue, pump chain, oil pump key, whatever, the bearings and e-shaft should show excessive wear or damage. An overheated e-shaft will take on a permanent color change similiar to the oem heat treating on the edge of the rotor lobes.
3. Over reving. This would still be tied to a fuel issue and detonation.
4. Lastly, it could be an oiling issue in the combustion chamber itself. But that would almost certainly have to be from a complete lack of assembly lube.
06-22-05, 08:46 AM
#15
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Why don't you just tell the shop they're blowing smoke up you *** and show them this thread, print it off or something. don't let them rebuild it if they are going to charge you for it, also small claims court is a wonderful tool, so if the better business buero.
06-22-05, 02:56 PM
#17
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A guy named Joel. The shop is in Lakeland called AAW. I went back there today and he is telling me that detonation from lack of fuel did it. But the engine got damaged because when the fuel pump kicked out the engine turned off but the engine spinning still caused the damage. My friend went with me today and talked to him about the engine being too tight but the guy insists that it's from lack of fuel causing detonation.
06-22-05, 05:17 PM
#18
Should always get a rebuild done and installed by a reputable builder and follow their instructions so you have full warranty. I had mine done by RX7 Specialties, they did the install and everything, provided breakin instructions to follow so I am sure my warranty is good. They are well known for standing behind their work. I've always said a deal is only as good as the service you get when there is a problem. Sure I had to wait a couple of weeks in a line up of about 14 engines to be done, but I know it was done right. I was even invited to take pics of the porting before assembly.
06-23-05, 03:56 PM
#19
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Well they FAILED to inform me that any engine with race modifications is not warantied. So I don't know. My pops said let the lawyers handle it. Yup he's getting lawyers involved now. Hope they appreciate the fact I told them I didn't want this. The owner of the shop also said he was going to replace the engine which I was fine with. Thatwas like a day after I took the car back to the shop, well the next day it was towed there the same night at 4 in th morning cause it went out on the interstate. Now he tells me that the only way he's gonna do it is with his price. I'm so mad at that place. They could just refund me and I'd be happy.
IF ANYONE LIVES NEAR LAKELAND, FL AND WANTS TO CHECK IT OUT. IT"S LOCATED AT "AAW" ON EAST MAIN ST.
IF ANYONE LIVES NEAR LAKELAND, FL AND WANTS TO CHECK IT OUT. IT"S LOCATED AT "AAW" ON EAST MAIN ST.
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