84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Okay, here is the scenario: I have a '85 GS and its an ongoing drift project. It has a welded diff, Re-speed race front coliovers on Tockico blues with blues and Racing Beat springs in the back.

I finally got it to my drift event as a driver (thank you Traction Optional), and I soon realized that for drifting my manual box steering is junk. It doesnt come back to center at all and makes countersteering hell. So, I want to do the FC subframe conversion. I have searched but did not get all my answers.

What exactly has to be done in order to retain my coilovers and not have to use FC suspension?

Has anyone done this with a power rack and not manual? Are there any other requirements besides the PS system to use a PS rack?

Finally I know this has been addressed but I would like to retain my 12A if possible, I know the 12A mounts at the front and the 13B's in the middle but any constructive thoughts on how to keep it would be appreciated.

Any other advice on this is also greatly appreciated.




Also an unrelated question, I am converting to rear disc brakes. I have a disc brakes parts but it is 600mi from my drift car. Do I have to use the entire disc brake rear end to convert or can I just use all the parts from the parts car on my drum brake rear end?


Sorry for the long post, and any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Wyatt

sa7

iTrader: (13)

It sounds like it would be easier to install the re-speed rack and pinion kit. It would allow you to keep your current suspension parts, and keep the 12a.

For the brake swap. You need to change the entire rear end. The drum rear end housings have a 4 bolt flange and the disc rear housing has a 3 bolt flange, so you can't just swap parts.

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for your help on that. I agree, the Re-speed kit would be easier, but I cant afford it..

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Power steering is usable, but I have no experience with it, I depowered the rack on my swap. Too keep the FB coil overs you will need to get a pair of junk FC struts, remove the strut from the housing (need to make a cut around the top and it just slides out) then cut the axle portion of the FB assembly off, then slide the FB tube into the lower half of the FC strut and weld it together.

I have some pics of mine when I did it, but not on this computer, I can post them tonight if i remember. Obviously you'll want to measure really carefully, but the FB tubes outer diameter matches the FC's inside diameter conveniently so its just a matter of getting correct placement and doing some welds. Again, pics will help make this make sense, I'll post when I can.

I used an FC engine so I have no personal experience, but you could weld up some kind of bracketry to use a 12a's front cover mount, but I'm not sure exactly how. The steering rack will be right around where the 12a mount would want to go, you'd have to get creative

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks a lot. I like getting creative Those photos would be helpful if you could get a hold of them. I think I bought my camber plates from you haha.

peejay

[QUOTE=84 GSL;10686116I finally got it to my drift event as a driver (thank you Traction Optional), and I soon realized that for drifting my manual box steering is junk. It doesnt come back to center at all and makes countersteering hell. [/quote]

You need more positive caster and less negative camber. Wide front tires also kill steering return to center.

The FB spring perches are 2" lower on the struts than FC. If you have that much under your existing sleeves, you can use your setup. If you don't, you will need shorter springs. The tophats will not work, the struts definitely will not work.

I am using the power rack. It's not ideal because it's slower than the FB power box but it does the job better than any manual unit.

I don't use the pump. I plugged the main lines off, and cut the two "ram" lines and looped them together. I did this method of depowering because I'm going to install a pump when I do a steering quickener.

Pull the engine apart, put in a GSL-SE center housing, and use FC driver's side motor mount brackets on both sides. They will need alteration for engine position (redrill mount hole) on the driver's side, and minor redrilling to bolt to the engine and some extension on the passenger side.

This is how I have a GSL-SE engine on my FC subframe.

The axlehousings are different. So, you need the whole shebang.

Fc3sFREAK415

you can install a toyota MR2 electric power steering pump to the rack to keep the power steering that way you are able to retain it and relocate the pump for space and you dont have to run belts that take power away from the motor

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

If you can afford to PROPERLY do the 2nd gen swap, you can afford the Respeed.

I did the 2nd gen swap and I'm into it for more than I would be for the Respeed swap.

Unless you get minty parts, you're still going to have to get swaybar bushings, control arm bushings, tie rod ends, dust boots, ball joints, rotors, pads and shocks. Whatever front end you find, it's more than likely that you'll need to replace these all because they're normal wear items. If your stuff has been maintained, it will cheaper in the end to do the ReSpeed swap.

I do not recommend the 2nd gen swap for beginners. If it wasn't for NoFords and my old man, I'd be in a failboat with it right now.

Do yourself a favor and save for the Respeed swap.

peejay

No swaybar - no problem

For that matter, it doesn't make sense to KEEP the 1st-gen front end because all that stuff is worn out too. That's why I did the swap, anyway... was a lot cheaper than the front-end parts I'd need to replace. And you can get decent yet cheap FC struts, not so for FB.

The problem with the ReSpeed swap is that it doesn't really fix a lot of the problems with the front end, it only changes the steering. And it costs more than a parts FC that you can scrap when you're done with it.

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Hmm. So the question is Re-speed vs. FC subframe. I just found out I can get a smoking deal on a brand new quick ratio (15:1) foxbody rack. Would the FC swap still be worth it if I can the rack super cheap?

peejay

The Fox rack mounts completely differently and isn't as good a rack as the stock FC. (The SN95 is a much better unit, Ford put money into having good steering feel with low friction components and such)

15:1 would be slower than a FC P/S rack, I think. A lot of it has to do with the steering arm length on the given chassis - a "15:1" rack means the steering turns 15 degrees for every one degree of spindle motion, so it will be different if your steering arms are different lengths.

Another thing to consider is the center-center of the inner tie rod pivots. That's fairly important for proper bumpsteer. (And why I don't like rearmount racks for 1st-gens, as the inner pivot needs to actually swing under the engine at full left lock, so where do you put the steering shaft? This is why FCs went to front mount racks and moved the motor mounts to the engine so they'd be out of the way! They still had to shorten the control arms a bunch because they still couldn't get the rack to be very narrow - the only downside of the FC swap)

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Okay peejay, I see your point there. I hope it isnt too much to ask, but how much did it wind up costing you to do the FC swap? Also, how much steering angle are you getting out of it? Sorry for so many questions, I just want to make sure Im going to get it right, because I dont want to have to do it again, and thanks for all the help.

peejay

Build thread: http://www.ohiorotaries.com/smf/inde...31953#msg31953

The largest expense was the KYB AGX struts at $250/pair. I needed new struts anyway, since those are kind of a maintenance item for me. (And I'm going to need a right-side one sooner or later, as it's starting to leak)

Then were the strut tops, which ran me something like $70. I made my own spring perches with some 3/16" plate I had lying around, and $5 worth of washers.

I used my FB power column and extended the FC steering shaft using tubing cut from a rear trailing link. Just the right ID and I have a few of them kicking around This was the scariest part of the swap.

I needed some 1" angle iron to make the rear subframe "boxes" - had that kicking around, used less than a foot's worth. Re-used some of the tension rod bracket bolts/nuts for that.

I also needed to acquire two washers to reinforce where I ovalled the front mounting holes (about 1/8" inboard on each side). I cut the P/S lines at the nuts and welded them shut to make three plugs, and looped the two "ram" lines together with a piece of fuel hose. I also packed a little grease into the rack on both sides since I'd pumped all fluid out.

I must point out here that I used the original subframe mounting studs. This WILL move the front axle centerline an inch forward. This WILL cause tire interference with the fenders and the inner fenderwell. Tin snips fixed the fenders, a sledgehammer fixed the inner fenderwell. I have room for the headlight mechanisms but just barely. I needed to make sure that a 195-60-15 tire would never contact anywhere when at full compression. By the tire marks, I 99% succeeded.

You will be in for more work fab-wise if you want to keep the axle centerline the same. BUT, if you slide the subframe forward like I did, you MIGHT have enough room to figure out a way to put the 12A frontmount on the subframe. There is no way the 13B would fit. I tried to run mounts to the body rails since my (FC) engine was built for a FB setup, but I gave up and swapped the front cover, oil pan, and pickup tube to FC units and fabricated a motor mount solution. Subframe slid forward is just like an engine setback, stock mounts don't work anymore.

Maintenance-wise, I machined the existing rotors, repacked the existing bearings, and replaced the torn left tie-rod boot. The ends and ball joints and bushings were still in good shape. I used the FC flex hoses which mated perfectly to the FB mount tabs.

After a while, one of the calipers siezed, so I got a cheapie reman unit. Later I found that 12A calipers would have worked... my FB suspension had recently-installed calipers. (I have a lot of problems with the pistons siezing when the caliper bore rusts between the seal and the boot, so caliper replacement is a continual thing for me)

The subframe came off of a parts FC that will probably yield more in scrap value than what was paid for it, and I still have yet to tear into its engine, which was running at least well enough to get it on a trailer. The wheels came from said FC, but somewhere along the way I picked up *another* set of phone dials, as well as some 240SX 15x6 wheels and some Lancer 15x6 OZ wheels.

I bought a set of 4-pots on eBay for $60 or somesuch, they need rebuilt but I kinda expected that. The plan is to modify them so they fit properly on the 4-lug rotors. The 4-piston calipers are a LOT lighter than the single-piston units!

82transam

iTrader: (18)

I really need to do a build thread for mine... Wasn't able to get pics last night, sorry, I will try to post them tonight!
I forget the exact cost of my swap, but its well under half the cost of the re-speed parts. If you look around junkyards or on ebay etc you can get most of the parts very cheaply. Some new ball joints, and tie rods and some time cleaning and painting the used parts and you're good to go.

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Peejay: Thanks for your help. Im going to spend some quality time looking at that build thread

82transam: Did you do yours like Peejay with the axle centerline an inch forward? I think I may try to keep it the same as stock, and if you kept the same as stock it Im interested to see what is involved in doing it that way. Thanks

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Bump for pics.

Adsy01

Did you make the new struts the FB legnth or the FC legnth?

I'm about to do mine, i was thinking of measuring the FB strut from the centre of the stub axle to the the spring perch. then replicating that distance with the new struts (i'll be using the FB springs i already have).

peejay

The distance from the spindle to the top of the strut body is the same FC and FB. So, with identical top mounts, they will bottom out at the same time.

The difference is that the FB spring seat is about 2" lower, while the FC has the upper spring seat about 2" higher than the FB with a goofy strut top arrangement, and the strut towers are a lot higher.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Ok, here are a few pics that might help explain what I did. The one pic of the strut shows the FC lower, FB upper and FB perch. Just make sure the inside height is the same as the FB (so the FB strut will fit in it) and the distance from the spindle to the bottom of the spring perch is the same as the stock FB unit (so the ride height is the same as stock, assuming you want it that way, could lower it a tad if you wanted)

As for the frame itself, since its a street car I wanted the axle centerline to match stock so I did move it back the inch. However, I wanted to keep the modifications to the car to a minimum, so I welded 1/4" steel tabs to the front of the FC subframe, and drilled new holes 1" forward of the stock holes. That way I could use the two existing front studs on the FB, and only have to put two new ones in for the rear. I also put a 1/2" spacer on the rear of the subframe, although after looking at it closer it should be more like 3/4" (peejay says his is level at 1", I think that is a tad too big, but whatever works! )

I also posted pics of the steering column, its a FB upper column and shaft, and a FC lower shaft and support bearing (I just used a few inches of the FC lower tube to hold the bearing) Also put the FC lower support bracket on there, and made a custom bracket that bolts to the brake booster studs to hold it. There are other ways of doing this (if you have a S3 then there are studs around the firewall hole you can use) but I'm happy with how mine came out, and several thousand commuter miles later and its holding up really well, I love it!

Hopefully that clears things up a big on how I did my swap, if you guys want more pics please ask!

84 GSL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks so much for the advice. It looks like Im going to do this swap, and this gave me the information I needed. I will make a thread with some good pics when I get back in town and started on it.

Thanks,
Wyatt

peejay

Hey now, moving the centerline does nothing against streetability. I have roughly 20k on my subframe swap, maybe more. (My odometer was broken through peak driving season last year) If there's no salt on the roads, and the car's not broken, it's my daily driver.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Lol you know what I meant, I wanted to keep it looking stock... Having the axle centerline an inch forward probably helps, but I wasn't willing to lose that much form for a bit of additional function

nofords

iTrader: (9)

FC install is easy. Rotaryboy knows how fast it went (if he would have put down the beer and helped!).

Drill new holes 1.125" to 1.25" back from the front two existing holes.

Put some anti-crush tubes in the new holes and a little spacer at the rear and call it a day.

Seriously people, if you get a decent front end, it will only cost you $100...or less!

Decent USED front struts with A1 Racing products bits and pieces is $100.

All the maintenance items are neither here nor there as you will need to replace those anyway. Getting first gen parts is harder and harder to do with each passing day and no-one can say that there isn't multiples of benefits to going to the FC subframe from FB...starting with loosing the LCA + Strut rod business. Lots of issues with slop in the strut bushings causing steering issues.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that you are better off putting the $$$ into the FC subframe rather than staying with a rack and pinion turn of the century farmer traction.

Oh, and about keeping the 12A, sell it and get a 13b-t!

Adsy01

Thanks for those pics, it clarifys what i was planning to do :-)

i've already for koni inserts and lowered & uprated coils so i'll be maintaing the std lengnths. i'll be sure to post some pics once i'm done

82transam

iTrader: (18)

No problem, its simple really. Put a few thousand miles on the whole setup already and so far everything is holding up really well.