macrx7

Can we use ethanol fuel??
is there a conversion to use the fuel??
Supposedly its better for the environment and also burns cleaner just wondering if we can use it on our 7's

if there is a conversion what needs to be changed??


Thanks guys
Mark

YellowJacket

HMmm Ethanol thats some cool stuff....
Speaking of alternatives to Gasoline, anyone ever remember or read about the WATER powered rotory that mazda was working on? They even showed it off at the NYC Auto Show right and had a mock-up in a miata (this was like 5 years ago)

85RX7GS

iTrader: (1)

I'd be careful with that stuff. Only use it if you are experienced.

peejay

Ethanol has half of the BTU content of gasoline, and as such requires twice as much fuel to burn properly. This generally means having a carburetor and fuel system Super-Sized to handle the vastly larger amounts of fuel. It's also highly corrosive and destroys many types of rubber used in fuel systems, so you need a specially lined fuel tank and special fuel lines and hoses. While you're messing with the fuel tank, get one twice as large, because, as mentioned before, fuel economy will be cut roughly in half.

Ethanol also has special problems with cold-starting, mainly because it doesn't evaporate as easily, especially when cold. It also seems to be very sensitive to jetting... atmospheric changes as simple as the sun going behind the clouds can affect how well the engine runs. (It does with gasoline engines too, but not as noticeably)

I believe that ethanol fuel is the future, and some of the drawbacks can be offset with additives. Gasoline engines also suffered some of these drawbacks at the beginning. The main problem right now is the price - it costs about $2 a gallon or so, if you can find it, and you need twice as much of it as gasoline. But if we make some national dietary adjustments to free up corn, we can be supplied with LOTS more of the stuff, and as gasoline prices eventually rise, it will be the financially sound plan to switch to ethanol.

WackyRotary

Actually gasoline has 112,000-119,000BTU's/gallon. This is because of differences in refining and additives, etc, etc. Here in Minnesota, all gas is sold with 10%ethonal in it. 3 advantages: cleaner burning, slightly more power, and for folks runing boost or high compression, higher octane. Down side:slight decrease in MPG.

Ethanol is sold in Midwest states, particually here in Minneosta. But more spificially 85%Ethanol 15%gas.
It is call E-85 and sells at more and more gas stations for $1.35 right now. E-85 has 79,000-81,000BTU's/gallon. The difference in BTU is because ethanol has way more O2 in the chemical composition in it. It is used in new vehicles called Flex-fuel-cars or FFV's. They can use any combo of pure gas to 85%ethonal. They infact produce 15%more HP with E-85, but lose some MPG. E-85 wants engines with high compression or high boost because its high 110octane. They also add more gas to the mixture in winter due to better starting usually ends up as low as 70%ethanol in subzero weather. I worked on a project which a Chey truck was converted to run on a paxton supercharger running E-85. IT ran the 1/4 in 14.6seconds with the 4wheel drive on, which is quick for a full size truck.

Basic Air Fuel ratio pure gasoline for best power is 12.7:1 a/f. Going below this is only for safety in boosting engines were leaning will quickly ruin the engine. E-85 is 9.1:1a/f for best power depending on the amount of ethanol in the mix.

I have purchased some very rich jets and accerator pump nozzles for the Mikuni so I could use E-85 in my car when I wanted to beat on it some. This adds about 10hp going by my school equations, never backed it by dyno results. Ofcourse compression ratio was not optimized, you want closer to 12:1C/R with it so I could gain more if you ran high Compression rotors. Oh yes, I don't use it often due to 60% MPG of Gas if you drive it similar to how you drive with gas. So normally I'd get 17mpg on gas, 11mpg on E-85.

Smells very different from running gas in a rotary. Smells kinda alchohally... as you may expect. But burning ethanol is not even as close as bad as breathing in gas burning engine due to no serious cancer causing agents in it. ..except for the 15% gas in the E-85 fuel.

peejay

One thing I miss about hittin' the drag strip... the distinctive aroma of an alky-powered car's exhaust I can't really describe it... but it is VERY distinctive.

hanman

Hey,
Don't let the corn farmers fool you. Ethanol from corn is not environmentally friendly. It happens to be energy negative. It takes more gasoline to make it than it produces. Combines tend to suck a little more gas than our gas guzzling rotaries.
Also: When the temperature reaches approx. 94 degrees F a car burning ethanol produces a highly toxic gas, much worse than normal emissions. They forgot to tell us that huh? Thats why you don't see it down South. Too warm in the summer.
It also is tough on rubber carb parts.
Besides all that I think it's great.
just my opinion, I could be wrong
hanman

p.s. If you think they don't produce because of a corn shortage, you couldn't be further from the truth. There is corn sitting on the ground rotting in Iowa. No place to go with it. We produce far more than we need.

peejay

yep... we pay our farmers to NOT grow stuff, because otherwise the market would be flooded and prices would drop big-time.

also 75% of the grain grown in this country is used to feed livestock... and it takes 7 pounds of vegetation to make 1 pound of meat. (as well as something like 1000 gallons of water... !!! )

WackyRotary

Actually another misconception about rubber and ethanol is blown out of wack. Unless your rubber fuel lines were made before 1950, you fuel lines will be more adversely effected by gasoline components then by ethanol.

Also, the reforming process for producing ethanol is gotten better since the '80s. Its now coming out with a little more energy then put in to produce it which is still improving. They use the whole plant stocks and all. By the way, I have no affilation with any farmer producing corn to be reformed into ethanol. Just clearing misconceptions learned in college research classes.

Infact the misconceptions really screw people up when it comes to cost. Pure ethanol is currently running about $1.20/gal if you do the math comparing to E-85. Gas is selling for $1.29/gal around the nation now? IF you compare cost of BTU vs cost, that is were you need to compare it at, then its cheaper to buy gas.

Ethanol is not suddenly toxic at any temp when burned? We have tested the E-85 supercharged truck mentioned before, at all temp ranges with the testing tube coming off the exhuast before the cat we were getting very low CO, virtually no HC since 85%of the mix is ethanol. Less then 50PPM and low, low NOX. Whatever people told you about ethanol being toxic must of breathed it in too much in during racing situations. There are components of the ethanol added to prevent consumption by people that are toxic. Very small amounts. The only thing about high temps that effect ethanol is the very low flash point and evapration that occurs more easily then gas which is not perfered in constantly high temp climates.

About the 75% corn feed intended for animals is not the only possible component of ethanol. Most of the production of it comes from other parts of the stock as well. I spent entirely too much time on alternative fuels to not clear some misconceptions. Don't get me started on Nitromethane, methanol, nitroglicerin. More and more O2 in the fuel/explosive makes them more and more volatile to handle as well as detenation.

hanman

Actually, in reference to the toxic fume issue, as I remember, it was not an issue when being burned. It was an issue of a toxic substance being emitted when just being subjected to hot temperatures.
hanman

Barwick

if you have problems with hydrocarbons eating rubber seals in your fuel system, look into getting Viton seals, it's some synthetic rubber that's like SUPER expensive if you were to make like a huge part out of it, but for seals, it takes heat and resists hydrocarbons real well. Can you believe I acutally learned this from a class here at school? Intro to Polymer Science.. the prof rocks.. heh.

WackyRotary

The fumes are only toxic from the additives to prevent human consumption. Pure ethanol vapors are not going to kill you unless in concentrations that prevent O2 is being choked out by the vapors. In which case, I'd be more worried about sparks. You'd need to be in a enclosed area with no ventalation whatsoever. Gasoline vapors are far more dangrous and can cause cancer if long enough exposer. The benzene content is the most dangrous component in gasoline.

Ethanol vapors are iratating like rubbing ethanol is. Its heat of evaperation is lower then gas and is why evaperation systems in cars running E-85 have different cansistors and different pressure relief valves settings for vapors in the fuel tank. The are safe in minnesota 95degree summer weather. Unless your intentionally putting your nose over the relief valve for a tank filled with ethanol, you will never know the difference and not get sick? Our suppercharged E-85 truck has never caused anyone to become sick or irratated when its been sitting inside the shop in hot weather. If it was outside, the air flow would make the vapors even less concentrated.

hotty

what would happen if you had a 'race day', and were running premium - about half a tank for the day, and you added 1 gallon of methanol (methyl hydrate) would this help you, no change , or f*ck your rotary???

WackyRotary

well methanol would screw your fuel ratio up. You'd be running considerably lean unless a half-tank equals 10gallons or more? Unless you measure exactly what was in your tank in correct ratios and calculate the optimal Fuel ratio for that particualer mix your running.
It may help a little if your jets were too rich for the gasoline.


If you were running a adjustable carb, you could go to a jetting chart that you would set up from a trial/error from testing and come up with the best jets and test it and adjust it as needed. Of course too much methanol is not as good for rotaries as gas or ethanol due to its natural detonation characteristics. I'd stick with a low methanol/gas ratio.

9bobo9

iTrader: (2)

HI i need some of this stuff to pass smog where can i get it i live in Las vegas. SOme one told me ace hardware store and its called denatured methonal or denatured ethonal and they want $12! wtf it cost this much?

timmya2

here in austrlia ethenol actually kills the engine of cars.. and gas stations that have no ethenol on them pride themselves by putting up BIG signs saying


"100% NO ETHENOL"

its a major issue here in australia.. fuel being mixed with ethenol..

because ethenol is so cheap

Sk8r_dude

Hydrogen powered rotary! they had one at the johnson space center in texas when i visited last march. ill see if i can find some pics.

Sk8r_dude

it makes a good race fuel?

Bayce

True, I too was gonna mention that, we actually drive around looking for stations that DONT use the stuff. Maybe we add different stuff here or the process is different, but we have consumer groups constantly on TV trying to lobby the goverment to limit the amount of ethanol added to the fuel mix. Also alot of dudes with either new or done up cars complaining about what it has done to their engines. . . go figure. .

jimmyrose99

haha yeah tthats true, i only just started work at a servo yesterday and a few people came in and asked do we use ethanol and only fuel after we said that we didnt. also, i only just finished an assignment on ethanol, its only rumors that its energy negative, it contains 34% more energy that whats used to make it

timmya2

wat u mean?

so its actually better?

WackyRotary

You guys sound a lot like the people here back in the late '80s when they started adding 10%ethanol to gasoline here in the midwest USA. You can't find gasoline without it as its required for EPA emssion standards, and no one would know the difference anyway. The problem about giong to this fuel people were having switching from pure gasoline is it dislodges sediment sometimes because ethanol cleans out stuff better and sometimes sends some of this dislodged sediment into jets/venturis and clogs them. If the carb was already clean or was nearly new, you would never know the difference. However, EFI should have no problems really.

Now if your talking about if they were adding methanol to the gasoline, your concerns would be warrented. Its much more corrosive and drops the energy content considerably in higher concentrations. Ethanol is added at 10% here and no ill effects occur. You guys have some funny mis-informed lobbying going on down under.

Bayce

Will Ethanol damage my vehicle or affect its performance?

Most metal components in fuel systems will corrode or rust in the presence of water. Ethanol increases petrol's ability to absorb water without separating and Ethanol blended petrol can therefore ‘hold’ more water and carry this through the engine. The greater the concentration of ethanol the greater the ability to ‘hold’ water.

Several studies have examined the effect of E10 on fuel tanks and fuel system components and have concluded that ethanol up to 10% does not increase corrosion in normal, everyday operation.

Ethanol blends may have a deteriorating effect on the rubber components of an engine. Other additives, such as benzene may also have an effect.

In older models, deposits in fuel tanks and fuel lines are occasionally loosened by E10, and the fuel filter may become plugged. This is remedied by a fuel filter change.

If very Ethanol rich fuel is used this may cause an engine to stall.
Laboratory tests have shown that blends of 20% pure Ethanol in petrol can damage some conventional automotive paint.

Vehicle warranties

A number of motor vehicle and marine engine manufacturers advise their warranties would be voided where fuel blends of greater than 10% ethanol have been used.


http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/s...pic628601.shtm

timmya2

ok ok.. so yur telling me.. the whole of austrlia was informed wrongly ? ethenol is actaully good??

well ill be..

bliffle

Don't add "Rubbing Alcohol", it contains glycerine. Add ordinary alcohol (which has some water).

B