Bob Holton

Has anyone ever really really wanted to do in a engineer? that miserable bleeder on top of the clutch has about driven me to it. engineers should ne forced to repair anything they designed, AFTER the car is assembled......... The bleeder screw has dissappeared into a black hole somewhere. end of rant.

85rotarypower

Well, if its any engineer I would like to kill its the Ford engineers. I had a MN12 thunderbird (89-97) with the 4.6V8 and it was absolute hell to work on. It took me an hour to figure out how to get the oil filter out of its cubby after I had unscrewed it. Then another hour and a half to put the new one in. Then there is the screwed up starter that you can't reach bolts for, then this and that that was all messed up. The car was a nightmare to work on.

Bob Holton

Amen Brother.

bliffle

Mostly, the 7 is pretty easy to work on, though often cramped. I've sometimes replaced that clutch bleeder with a speed bleeder, but usually you can find a way to get a wrench on it, even if it's an 8mm Alden wrench. Of course, if you use a pressure bleeder and a tube into a bottle of fluid you don't have to close the bleeder while maintaing pedal pressure. The big problem is you gotta put a lot of fluid thru to get rid of the air.

blwfly

iTrader: (4)

try changing a thermastat on a saturn without removing anything lol its bloody bullshit how some cars are put together i had to rip half the **** out

Manntis

When it comes to automotive engineering, one engineer designs a part while another, often at a different company, designs the manufacturing steps that fit the parts together.

For example, GM will buy transmissions from Getrag and transmission subframes from, say, Magna. neither supplier will have a clue where the others intend to fit their fasteners, so it may turn out that to change a wire that runs near the bellhousing you have to drop the tranny out.

Extreme example, but you get the point.

Bob Holton

A speed bleeder??? am going to use a bottle, and hav fluid ,but the bloody bleeder went away somewhere . like screwdrivers and sox, Bob

CrackHeadMel

iTrader: (2)

speed bleeders ftl.

i bled my brakes sunday by myself in 30sec top

horay for spare checkvalves from the emissions rack. throw em on with a lil vac line, pump away!

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

in the 15 or so 1st gens ive had, they have usually been 84-85's.

its been almost a revelation to work on the 79, its SO EASY. its like you can change any part you want without having to touch anything else.

best example i can think of is the rear transmission seal. you just lift the car and change it, the exhaust isnt in the way, and theres no big heat shield either. takes about 15minutes...

purple82

Nah, they all know how everything is assembled and how everything fits together from the different manufacturers. There's a lot of communication and CAD files passing back and forth from one company to another. None of the design goes on in a vacuum. The design engineers design parts and assembly procedures. The manufacturing engineers design the processes that are put in place to make that assembly happen. They often also write up the formalized assembly instructions for the line.

Engineers spend a lot of time working out the assembly procedure and assembling prototypes before anything goes into production. Many times, assemblies are designed to be difficult to work on to discourage someone from DIY work on purpose. All part and assembly designs are a compromise of cost, manufacture-ability, packaging and various other requirements and sometimes the results are more successful than others.

bliffle

You lost the clutch bleeder tit? No need to take it all the way out. And you can get a replacement at any autostore. When you put it back on have a piece of tubing over the end to help get it in place, then use that, in a can of fluid, to bleed it.

Do I have to do everything around here?

Manntis

Orly? Must just be military spec vehicles then. I had to engineer solutions to the Italian intercooler interfering with the German-sourced oil cooler, and the Western Star starter wiring rubbing on the Iveco designed fuel line, etc.

85rx12a

i just replaced one of these starters today, one of the hardest things ive ever had to do for free.

teddyrx2

iTrader: (33)

the ******* gt mustang 1996 and up. taking of the damn exhaust from the shorty header's there a ******* pain in the ***. Why the hell would ford make shorty headers, and then not make the nuts and bolts not visable and reachable from the top.

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

You probably were working on a engine with the beehive oil cooler. With that monstrosity in the way it's a bit of a pain to get to the slave cylinder.

purple82

The way the military does things is totally different. Their goals are not the same as a consumer business which drives completely different behaviors. and in the case of the military, you're right, there often isn't visibility in design from one sub-assembly to another. Often because of security. Also often because of the piecemeal parts selection that goes on.

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

I think this every time I have to change oil on a car that requires removal of an inner fender well to get to the filter. The #$%!^#%#% engineer that came up with this crap should have to work on this! And then they put the filter right above a frame member so it's impossible to do it without making a mess. Thanks alot!

</rant>

Rich

Manntis

Well, I often hear civilians grumbling about same on the IEEE chatter, so I'm not entirely convinced some of it doesn't occur on civilian designs. A good example is when an engine bay is designed for x amount of space, then an engine in sourced from a separate manufacturer and bolted in as a complete assembly. Next thing you know, a manifold prevents easy access to a critical bolt or something.

85rotarypower

Yeah, the solenoid went out on my 97 4.6. I had to remove the whole starter to get the solenoid replaced. It took me 3 hours to remove the damn thing, then after 4 hours of fighting with it to put it back in, I ended up with 2 crossthreaded bolts. Try retapping those holes. It is hell. They should have modded the bellhousing to bolt the starter into, instead of going back from the engine, basically its opposite of what the RX-7 is. They should have made it like the RX-7.

My Alero is another story though. Its extremely easy to work on, and doing an oil change is usually very clean and easy to do. Litterally no drips on any frame rails or the engine. Gotta love the cartrige style oil filter on those Ecotecs.

Chiron

Alright, I am in school to become a Mechanical Engineer with a focus in vehicle design. I will take all your trials and tribulations to heart in each and every one of my projects. However, from what I've heard from a few of my professors that worked together for Pontiac; There are obviously several different projects going on at the same time, and each of those projects is given a designated team of engineers that work with it, improving the design, from beginning to end. They may take some parts from other companies, but the design itself is not a piecemeal process. The team members all work together, usually in the same building, on the different areas of the total design. Some of them may be contract workers from another company, but they all work together on it.

Manntis

*bites tongue to resist pointing out that it's the makers of the Aztek teaching him this*

Chiron

ROFL, no my professors left Pontiac in '92. As a class field trip they went back to TP the R&D department where that monstrosity was dreamed up.

They were a rowdy bunch.....they apparently gave a rough treatment to the Fiero makers as well...

Manntis

"Let's take a Minivan and make it look like someone at Pep Boys tried to maike it look like a sportscar!"

oy.

My favorite is that sagging line below the rear window. What styling genius decided to mold in what looks like a defect? Geesh *LOL*

stilettoman

iTrader: (1)

A lot of you are apparently not aware of the origin of the design. The vehicle was originally designed for the movie "Road Warrior", but the producers decided it was too ugly for the movie. Later, Pontiac decided to produce it.

I spent much of my career as a maintainabilty engineer at Boeing, notably on the 777. On a commercial airliner, any part that cannot be quickly replaced can cause a delay or cancellation, which costs money. The airline is the customer, and they do the maintenance. Good maintainabilty is a major selling issue on commercial airplanes.

On a car, the customer almost never does the maintenance, and they just accept the outrageous labor costs because they do not realize that they are paying for poor design. The manufacturer designs the car to be assembled in the factory at minimum cost, and the only criteria for maintenance is that you have to replace the parts without using a cutting torch. I have been working on cars for 50 years, and I have never seen a car that was well designed for maintainability.

My criteria include changing any light bulb in the car in 5 minutes, including the ones in the instrument panel, the alternator in 20 minutes, or the heater core in one hour. These are reasonable criteria. Show me a car that meets these. I can change the alternator on my RX-7 in 20 minutes, but it takes 8-10 hours to replace the heater core. A few cars have had the heater core in the engine compartment, where it is easily accessed - there is NO EXCUSE for putting it under the dash.

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

It's still butt ugly...

Rich