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13bbp n/a,
51mm IDA, RB Intake Manifold, FB DFIS, RB Header, Power over looks thing.Now i think i got this down hopefully without the relay but please someone let me know different. Shoutouts to Bumpstart, Jeff20B, Dazzz, t_g_farell, and to many more all the BIG DAWGS out there that teach us guys so much.
So This Is What Ive Come Up With, Anyone have any newer advice in 2023? Thanks and if running rough switch polarity from dizzy to ignition modules. Cheers Guys
Last edited by Boogienoseface; 09-22-23 at 05:32 PM.
quick update. re-reading through the forums ive noticed that the tach wire goes from the negative wire on the ignition module for the trailing spark on the coil side or on the trailing coil negative itself (im pretty sure either would work tho since its just reading spark from trailing). ive decided to go Bosch on my setup with BIM024 ignition module and HEC715 coils. Still not sure if i really need the relay or resistors in the circuit or not tho. any help would be greatly appreciated as im collecting the parts now and plan on doing setup soon and dont wanna fry anything, these parts aint cheap lol and im not rich by any means. Another shoutout to Circle_w3rk as ive gotten a lot of info of his forum. Thanks. And this picture i hyjacked once again but shows bosch module setup. P.S. if your looking at this thread to do this yourself you must put your ignition modules with thermal paste on a piece of aluminum for a heatsink and ground the aluminum as well which i will do off strut tower bolt. And the leading signal on dizzy is on the front engine side. Hope i hear from someone about relay/resistor thing with hec715 coils, and hopefully someone someday will look at this for help with there DLIDFIS setup. Ive read its damn near a must with a bridgeport weber setup to get rid of low end stumbles.
Last edited by Boogienoseface; 09-24-23 at 05:06 PM.
Sadly I don't have much info to give but this looks awesome and I'm looking forward to hearing if it works (and seeing I'd there's any feedback from others).
Hey there jon and will do, figure i will document and take pictures as i go. I know theres a million different threads out there about this but have not found all the info dumbed down to my level in one place yet.
So i have decided to go with the relay because i finally found the info on how to wire it in. from what i read you get better stronger voltage with relay. I plan on using 2 bosch 30/40 units, one for leading ignition and other for trailing. The 2 relays is probably overkill but i want the setup to be interchangeable within itself so if a component was to die out i can just switch some wires around and still have both leading plugs operating. Also ive recently decided to go MEC723 coils.
Relay= BCH-0332019150
30- alternator B terminal (add 30 amp fuse)
86- 12v switch
85- ground
87- leading igniter positive 1
87a- leading igniter positive 2
Figured id give an update, collecting parts now but will have everything i need in 3 weeks to complete everything im working on at the moment which is a little bigger than just the DLIDFIS setup. I put this thread in first gen expecting to get more answers for DFIS but i actually have an 86 FC 13b full bridgeport that is being converted to 51 IDA carb. I bought the FAJS carb (chinese, i know yuck) but have everything converted to genuine weber for internals besides butterfly and bearings which seem to be good for now, fingers crossed but looks to be solid. i bought the throttle linkage from Mazdatrix and took me a few pictures online to really figure out how it goes, honestly spent way too much time figuring it out lol so figured id put a couple pics up for anyone that may need an extra pic to generalize things. throttle linkage had to be swapped to opposite side of carb than stock setting. also attached is my parts list for the swap. The only things not shown on the list that have already been bought are AEM wideband and good ole Idemitsu pre-mix.
Here is an updated picture for wiring for DLIDFIS and i forgot to update parts list will be using 12 gauge wire for power and ground wires and XLR microphone cable for signal wires from distributor to ignition modules. Also will be using 3 relays, one for each ignition module in hopes that maybe will get cleaner power from alternator to each coil. The switch will be powered from the battery
Last edited by Boogienoseface; 10-09-23 at 12:54 PM.
Great diagram. I've got a question (might be a dumb one).
If the L1 and L2 ignitors both get pins 3 and 17 from the same spot on the distributor, and they both get pin 15 from the same spot on the relay, then how do the ignition coils know when to fire at different times for each of the leading plugs?
I know you can fire the trailing plugs at the same time each time and just end up with one of them firing into the exhaust stroke as a "wasted spark", but the leading ones need to fire at different times to match the point in the cycle where the air/fuel mix is compressed and ready to be ignited. But in this diagram it kind of looks like L1 and L2 ignitors will both fire the L1 and L2 coils at the same time.
Cheers,
Jon
Editing to answer my own dumb question:
It's the LEADING that can fire at the same time in wasted spark, and the TRAILING that has to fire at specific times to not pre-ignite the mixture and destroy the engine.
There are two ignitors for leading and two coils for leading to get maximum spark power in each of the leading plugs, but they fire at the same time each time - one just fires uselessly into the exhaust cycle. The coils connect directly to the spark plugs, hence the "Direct" portion of the "Direct Fire Ignition System" (DFIS).
The trailing coil fires through the distributor, which has the rotor that makes the connection between the coil and each of the plug wires at different points in the rotation, that's how it fires the trialing plugs at the right time.
Since trailing is only to clean up the last of the combustion (to make it so that less raw fuel ends up out the tailpipe for emissions and efficiency reasons) it doesn't have to be as powerful of a spark as the leading, so it's OK to take the losses through the distributor and only having one ignitor/coil and have them go "indirectly".
Last edited by vipernicus42; 10-11-23 at 01:04 PM.
It's the LEADING that can fire at the same time in wasted spark, and the TRAILING that has to fire at specific times to not pre-ignite the mixture and destroy the engine.
There are two ignitors for leading and two coils for leading to get maximum spark power in each of the leading plugs, but they fire at the same time each time - one just fires uselessly into the exhaust cycle. The coils connect directly to the spark plugs, hence the "Direct" portion of the "Direct Fire Ignition System" (DFIS).
The trailing coil fires through the distributor, which has the rotor that makes the connection between the coil and each of the plug wires at different points in the rotation, that's how it fires the trialing plugs at the right time.
Since trailing is only to clean up the last of the combustion (to make it so that less raw fuel ends up out the tailpipe for emissions and efficiency reasons) it doesn't have to be as powerful of a spark as the leading, so it's OK to take the losses through the distributor and only having one ignitor/coil and have them go "indirectly".
Thanks Jon, and from my understanding in this last part you nailed it. its technically DLIDFIS because its really only the dual leading plugs getting direct fire. And you can absolutely run your engine on just leading plugs from what ive read if your in a bind, not recommended tho but if you need to get home should be fine for a short stint. Thats the main reason im doing the setup i chose, if something goes down on the leading side, can swap wires from the trailing setup (whether its ignition module, coil, relay) to bring leading plugs back to life. Worse case scenario and you only have 1 coil left, you can use that coil with the distributor in the leading spot and pop the spark plug wires from the trailing to the leading positions. Ive heard this type of setup (especially with the MEC723 coils) is a lot hotter spark, but with heat there is stress. So the spark plugs and spark plug wires are gonna take a beating and its a good idea to keep a couple extra of those in the car just in case one was to fry up. Ive always ran NGK plug wires in all my vehicles, I will see how they hold up to the abuse. For spark plugs im going with the iridium RX8 plugs because they are said to last a lot longer under direct fire systems. I was originally gonna go with the HEC715 coil which seems like a really good pick for street use, But my motor was rebuilt with a full bridgeport and once its fully broken in plan on sending some 10k rpm pulls and read HEC715 starts to break up around like 8 grand which makes the MEC723 better for racing all out platforms as it gives better spark in redline areas. I would be really interested in the comparison between these bosch coils and MSD 8222 high vibration coils. Main reason im sticking with Bosch is that i know the 024 ignition module works well with both those coils and the dwell in the BIM024 matches our rotary engines well as the rpms increase. I dont quite understand "dwell" and how it works, i just know its really important in these ignition modules and that bosch module was considered the best for a while. I honestly would use a GM module if i understood the dwell factor better for choosing the correct one.
Cheers,
-Seth
Last edited by Boogienoseface; 10-12-23 at 10:15 AM.
Dwell is just the time during which the coil gets "charged" back up before the igniter triggers the collapse of the magnetic field and the resulting surge of very high voltage sent to the spark plug. As you increase the rpm, the available dwell time decreases. 10K RPM asks a lot! With 1 spark for each revolution of the e-shaft, that only gives you 6 milliseconds of dwell. At 800 RPM (idle) the coils get 75 mSec to charge up.
There was some talk here about the HEI style igniters and GM coils maybe not being able to keep up, perhaps getting a bit unstable north of 6K. I've had a setup with DR100's and GM coils and it did get wonky on me at higher RPMs. I took it off and reverted to the J109s with the stock coils and it is super smooth all the way to 7K. I have a stock 12A.
I was curious if the Bosch igniters/coils are fast enough... and you answered my question .
Dwell is just the time during which the coil gets "charged" back up before the igniter triggers the collapse of the magnetic field and the resulting surge of very high voltage sent to the spark plug. As you increase the rpm, the available dwell time decreases. 10K RPM asks a lot! With 1 spark for each revolution of the e-shaft, that only gives you 6 milliseconds of dwell. At 800 RPM (idle) the coils get 75 mSec to charge up.
There was some talk here about the HEI style igniters and GM coils maybe not being able to keep up, perhaps getting a bit unstable north of 6K. I've had a setup with DR100's and GM coils and it did get wonky on me at higher RPMs. I took it off and reverted to the J109s with the stock coils and it is super smooth all the way to 7K. I have a stock 12A.
I was curious if the Bosch igniters/coils are fast enough... and you answered my question .
Thanks for that input, and am glad to hear from someone that has used the dr100's as i almost went that route. good to hear from you and great info on the dwell factor. I will be sure after i fully break in the engine to let you know how the bosch setup does around 7k+ rpm.
Heres something regarding the carburetor im using ( FAJS 51mm IDA ) rebuilt with Weber components. I was working on replacing the accelerator shooters and happened to notice that this piece (not sure what its called), was not going up and down when i twisted the throttle linkage open. I sprayed it with some wd-40 and immediately started working as it should. I worked the throttle open and shut for a few minutes and sprayed lubricant on it a couple times. seems to work great now, and this could be something that would have freed up on its own once fuel has been fed to the carb as im guessing this function has something to do with fuel but dont quote me on it im not really sure. Figured id put this on here in case anyone out there decides to go my route with the much cheaper fajs downdraft carb. I strongly recommend rebuilding the unit with weber parts as everything ive bought thats genuine weber looks a little different than the factory chinese components. At this point the only thing that is still chinese is the lever that i stated earlier that i lubricated, butterflies, bearings and springs on butterfly rod. Heres a couple pics of the rod that i lubed up on my Feber carb haha.
Last edited by Boogienoseface; 10-16-23 at 12:11 PM.
Heres something with my build, i know this thread im sidetracking quite a bit probably should have named it diff but im in it now. And if any moderator wants to change the title and section feel free to do so please. i bought the 48mm racingbeat intake manifold which i just bored to 51mm, actually 51.7mm but should work well i think fingers crossed haha. So i used wd40 every couple minutes on the bit and a drill (didnt even end up using dremel type rotary tool) with a carbide bit to bore and a 40 grit sanding unit followed by a 400 grit polisher. was very easy to do and just need a steady hand moving back and forth motions. i placed the gasket with bolts on the intake manifold and used a sharpie to mark it, then placed carb to check to see if everything matched up. before and after pics are as followed.
While im waiting on parts to come in, I figured id make the relay box and clean up the old dizzy i got from rhineharts rotary and slap a new pickup coil and reluctor in there. The guys at Rhineharts Rotary are awesome to deal with, any used parts i need i always check with them first.
09-21-23, 07:47 PM
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