decision time!! carb or efi
05-08-05, 11:27 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
decision time!! carb or efi
I have been looking at both sides of the story. I have done my searches. I still have some doughts. I have just finished rebuilding 13B 6port. In the future I want to go turbo. I have been thinking about going with the EFI for some time. I think that the tunning options are more easyer for me. I was looking at haltec and a few others. I still haven't asked them for a specific unit. I am thinking that I don't need the complete harness if I get a stand-alone unit. I only have a few hunderd buks to spend. I needed to spend 1500 on the body (chassis rot) I still have a workable 12A all-though its got a blown apex seal in it. I am going to rebuild it soon.
My questions at the moment...
Anyone know of any manufactuers that make stand-alone management computers?
Should I sell the freaking engine and get a 13B-4port?
fyi.. its an 1985 13B from an -se thats going into a previous home for a 12A
all positive replys are appreciated. Thanks in advance for everyone support!
My questions at the moment...
Anyone know of any manufactuers that make stand-alone management computers?
Should I sell the freaking engine and get a 13B-4port?
fyi.. its an 1985 13B from an -se thats going into a previous home for a 12A
all positive replys are appreciated. Thanks in advance for everyone support!
05-08-05, 01:05 PM
#7
Just Call Me Terminator!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,848
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you need a few things besides the computer and harness but you can reuse alot of the stock efi components.
once you price in a new carb/fuel pump/intake manifold/etc. you are at the same price as a standalone......
once you price in a new carb/fuel pump/intake manifold/etc. you are at the same price as a standalone......
Trending Topics
05-08-05, 01:33 PM
#8
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: wishing i was back in FL
Posts: 4,192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you could carb it for 600 or less. but it's a tuning nightmare from the beginning. make sure you have a damn wideband if you go carb! dont get a weber either, they stopped making 48's which would be perfect for you setup and it's expensive as hell for the tuning pieces you will need. if you go holley it will be cheaper and easier although some say setting them up is harder. we'll see. honestly, if i could do it all over again tho, i would have gone efi.
05-08-05, 07:24 PM
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
humm.. what are you saying? You need a wide band O2 sensor for a carb set up? I thought you only need something like that for a EFI set up?
Are there certain units that are easyer to install or are just plain as night and day.. better than others?
I have the harness for the engine, when getting a EMS.. DO I need a certain harness?
Are there certain units that are easyer to install or are just plain as night and day.. better than others?
I have the harness for the engine, when getting a EMS.. DO I need a certain harness?
05-09-05, 12:52 AM
#10
Right near Malloy
iTrader: (28)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Behind a workbench, repairing FC Electronics.
Posts: 7,839
Received 505 Likes
on
342 Posts
You'll probably need a wideband for either carb OR EFI. It's a tuning tool.
Megasquirt is by FAR the cheapest. ( www.megasquirt.info ) It's a few hundred. The only catch is that you have to build it yourself. (But that's half the fun.)
As far as a wideband, there are several options.
There are many good models available from Tech-Edge ( http://www.techedge.com.au/ )
Also Innovative makes a good model, prebuilt, standalone... Designed to work with a fuel management unit. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...me.php?cat=253
There is also a company that'll make a custom harness for your engine with all the EFI bits. The link and name escape me at the moment though.
Megasquirt is by FAR the cheapest. ( www.megasquirt.info ) It's a few hundred. The only catch is that you have to build it yourself. (But that's half the fun.)
As far as a wideband, there are several options.
There are many good models available from Tech-Edge ( http://www.techedge.com.au/ )
Also Innovative makes a good model, prebuilt, standalone... Designed to work with a fuel management unit. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...me.php?cat=253
There is also a company that'll make a custom harness for your engine with all the EFI bits. The link and name escape me at the moment though.
05-09-05, 01:23 AM
#11
Apprentice Guru
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Cloud Nine and Peak of God
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Advantages of efi are more power [7-10%], better fuel consumption[around 5%], smoother running, easier to start especially when very hot or cold. Easy to turbo later. Cost in if you do not have them: the ecu, injectors, upgraded fuel pump and lines, surge tank.
Advantages of carb are its cheaper, simplier to install, easier to fix if it goes wrong, it's what real men use.
I have two 12A powered cars. One has a modified Nikki, the other is efi. using Microtech. The latter is clearly far better all round, and while it costs more initially to install, over three years fuel savings will pay for it.
Thus, if in the medium term you intend to keep the car, going efi in 98% of situations is the way to go.
Advantages of carb are its cheaper, simplier to install, easier to fix if it goes wrong, it's what real men use.
I have two 12A powered cars. One has a modified Nikki, the other is efi. using Microtech. The latter is clearly far better all round, and while it costs more initially to install, over three years fuel savings will pay for it.
Thus, if in the medium term you intend to keep the car, going efi in 98% of situations is the way to go.
Last edited by PaulFitzwarryne; 05-09-05 at 01:34 AM.
05-09-05, 02:35 AM
#12
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: wishing i was back in FL
Posts: 4,192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pele
You'll probably need a wideband for either carb OR EFI. It's a tuning tool.
Megasquirt is by FAR the cheapest. ( www.megasquirt.info ) It's a few hundred. The only catch is that you have to build it yourself. (But that's half the fun.)
As far as a wideband, there are several options.
There are many good models available from Tech-Edge ( http://www.techedge.com.au/ )
Also Innovative makes a good model, prebuilt, standalone... Designed to work with a fuel management unit. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...me.php?cat=253
There is also a company that'll make a custom harness for your engine with all the EFI bits. The link and name escape me at the moment though.
Megasquirt is by FAR the cheapest. ( www.megasquirt.info ) It's a few hundred. The only catch is that you have to build it yourself. (But that's half the fun.)
As far as a wideband, there are several options.
There are many good models available from Tech-Edge ( http://www.techedge.com.au/ )
Also Innovative makes a good model, prebuilt, standalone... Designed to work with a fuel management unit. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...me.php?cat=253
There is also a company that'll make a custom harness for your engine with all the EFI bits. The link and name escape me at the moment though.
i prefer..... www.plxdevices.com
05-09-05, 03:12 AM
#13
backyard tuner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ive been doing the exact same swap for the past few weeks, aslong as you get the engine harness and preferably the front harness aswell its pretty much plug'n'play. however i dont have the front harness. i will be doing a write-up on this swap if she ever starts! im damn close now tho.
staying EFI has a lot of benefits, mostly gas mileage and more tunability. the downside is if you want to do it properly with the front (dash) harness you will end up yanking the dash... altho on these cars it doesnt look too complicated. i may end up doing this if i cant re-wire the stuff myself since i already have a full engine harness connected.
im sort of in the same situation as you, and i keep getting fed up with the EFI system thinking i may aswell just get a carb. but theres still a bit of fight left in me!
staying EFI has a lot of benefits, mostly gas mileage and more tunability. the downside is if you want to do it properly with the front (dash) harness you will end up yanking the dash... altho on these cars it doesnt look too complicated. i may end up doing this if i cant re-wire the stuff myself since i already have a full engine harness connected.
im sort of in the same situation as you, and i keep getting fed up with the EFI system thinking i may aswell just get a carb. but theres still a bit of fight left in me!
05-09-05, 08:13 AM
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Changeing the 'dash' harness is exactly what I don't want to do. Everytime I remove a interior peice its hard as hell to get back in the same place looking the same way. I figure if I spend the extra dough and get a stand alone unit I will not need that harness. Thats why I really need to know if I need it for a stand alone EMS.
thanks for that info pele
I am sure those links will come in handy.
I guess the easyest route would be to change the inside wireing harness and get the -se ecu.. I can get both for around $350 or so. Still if I have to spend a few more bones to get easyer tunening and quciker installation, then I will.
thanks for that info pele
I am sure those links will come in handy.
I guess the easyest route would be to change the inside wireing harness and get the -se ecu.. I can get both for around $350 or so. Still if I have to spend a few more bones to get easyer tunening and quciker installation, then I will.
05-09-05, 11:02 AM
#15
Senior Member
My megasquirt kit arrived two weeks ago and the car started yesterday for the first time. It's been fun to build, fun to learn (if you like research) and it's so nice to have an ECU that actually tells you whats wrong as opposed to just throwing a code.
Grant
Grant
05-09-05, 07:52 PM
#17
Senior Member
As long as you have injectors, intake and wiring all you need to buy is the megasquirt kit, stimulator kit and thats it.
Grant
read here: www.megasquirt.info or www.msefi.com
Grant
read here: www.megasquirt.info or www.msefi.com
05-09-05, 10:00 PM
#18
I F****D a mermaiiiid
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
unless you have significant mechanical skills and an intimate knowledge of 12 volt DC electronics i wouldn't attpempt a megasquirt build/install.
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
05-09-05, 10:16 PM
#19
Senior Member
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. I have no electronics knowledge and my total cost including buying a second-hand 13B and laptop has been under $900 Canadian. I have virtually no tuning skills but I'm doing it all by trial and error and it couldn't be easier. As long as you practise soldering and read everything you can you really can't go wrong. An -SE engine would be even easier because you don't have to deal with staged injection so you can just run the basic code. It all comes down to preference but I seriously wouldn't put this past anyone capable of pulling and replacing a stock engine (which I found harder than the megasquirt install). I actually spent more time soldering my broken radiator then I did my wiring harness. I may not be done the project, but I am at a point where I can comment on the difficulty of doing this.
Grant
Grant
Originally Posted by GTRay7
unless you have significant mechanical skills and an intimate knowledge of 12 volt DC electronics i wouldn't attpempt a megasquirt build/install.
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
05-09-05, 11:19 PM
#20
I'm with grantmac, just built my first Megasquirt a few weeks ago. It was harder to follow the ordering process on the website than it was to build. I had no soldering experience with circuit board stuff and I still think this thing runs on FM (F*cking Magic) but its on my desk in front of me flashing lights on the stimulator. The further you get into it, the more you learn, and all of a sudden when you're reading on the forum you realise you understand whats being said( a little!). I've never had to wait more than 15 minutes for a little help on the forum. But that was after I had spent an hour searching first, and learned something else along the way. I say buy a $9 soldering iron and go for it, or search ebay and buy one complete. Get the rest of what you need from the junkyard(sensors etc.).
I did have some exposure to a Haltec when it comes to tuning efi. Typing on a computer is easier than fumbling with jets any day, and way more accurate.
The laptop I use cost me $50. It was cheaper than buying a new battery for my other laptop.
I did have some exposure to a Haltec when it comes to tuning efi. Typing on a computer is easier than fumbling with jets any day, and way more accurate.
The laptop I use cost me $50. It was cheaper than buying a new battery for my other laptop.
05-09-05, 11:34 PM
#21
Bimmer *****
Originally Posted by GTRay7
unless you have significant mechanical skills and an intimate knowledge of 12 volt DC electronics i wouldn't attpempt a megasquirt build/install.
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
05-10-05, 02:26 AM
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GTRay7
unless you have significant mechanical skills and an intimate knowledge of 12 volt DC electronics i wouldn't attpempt a megasquirt build/install.
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
there is a significant learning curve involved in a projcet like that especially if you have no experience tuning.
from your description of the car it sounds like you still have quite a bit of work to do.
if you are building this car from the ground up and are still at the point of deciding between EFI and carb then you will need a serious parts budget to do wither one of them properly. If you are intent on going with EFI then you will need the manifolds from an EFI setup with all of the appropriate hardware. if this car was previously carbed then i would suggest doing this the easy way. i would get a high volume low pressure fuel pump meant for a carb and run the fuel into a surge tank mounted on the firewall. i would then run a high pressure EFI fuel pump from the surge tank to the fuel rail and send the fuel rail return line back to the factory fuel tank with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator in between.
once you sort our your fuel delivery you're going to need the supporting hardware like intake manifolds and fuel injectors. whichever engine you go with will determine the remainder of your required parts.
look at spending 2000 to 2500 on parts and tools for this project. the 12a will be more costly to consvert to EFI as there are quite a few parts that you will need.
Ray
thanks Ray. at the moment I am working on getting my door fixed. why? well i had just like to drive the car out the garage with the door open, thats all. I have both, 12A and 13B. 12A is dieing. 13B is in peices soon I will be putting it back together. I don't like to rush things. especially something that I will be able to take pride in. Not to mention have my son learn a thing or to0. I am going to the bone yard again on saturday. I hope the find a -se with some doors. thats my number one priority now. While I am there I will see if I can pull the harness off. everytime i think i am ready to drive around the block.. there allways a freaking set back.
to be honest I haven't thought of fuel supply. I guess, i was guessing on getting a high pressure fuel pump and from there go into a fuel pressure rugulator and then to the fuel injectors.. thats as far as I have gone.. at the moment. i hate when theres an aspect of soemthing soo ccritical left out of an equation.
05-10-05, 04:08 AM
#23
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Yokosuka
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, an EFI setup is a big project if you don't know what you're getting into. I got into a little trouble with it, and now I'm selling my stuff off. :-/ Check the classifieds if you're interested..
The holley TB you're talking about is much more expensive than $75 if you want it working properly, though..
About $375 for all the fixins, except air cleaner setup. It's a NICE setup, though, and an excellent deal. I plan on buying one eventually.
The holley TB you're talking about is much more expensive than $75 if you want it working properly, though..
About $375 for all the fixins, except air cleaner setup. It's a NICE setup, though, and an excellent deal. I plan on buying one eventually.
Last edited by jayroc; 05-10-05 at 04:10 AM. Reason: more..
05-10-05, 08:01 AM
#25
Bimmer *****
Originally Posted by jayroc
Yes, an EFI setup is a big project if you don't know what you're getting into. I got into a little trouble with it, and now I'm selling my stuff off. :-/ Check the classifieds if you're interested..
The holley TB you're talking about is much more expensive than $75 if you want it working properly, though..
About $375 for all the fixins, except air cleaner setup. It's a NICE setup, though, and an excellent deal. I plan on buying one eventually.
The holley TB you're talking about is much more expensive than $75 if you want it working properly, though..
About $375 for all the fixins, except air cleaner setup. It's a NICE setup, though, and an excellent deal. I plan on buying one eventually.
and yes, i understand it still needs 2 fuel rail, some injectors, probly a throttle position sensor, but use TII injectors with that and u won't have to spend a ton...