carburated renesis swap
01-14-05, 02:38 PM
#51
Whack 'em and stack 'em
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Ever seen or better yet heard a hopped up V-8 sportin' these?
IMO- properly tuned webers are one of the easiest, cheapest and coolest way to gain HP. EFI may be more efficient, but I would not say the best all the time. If you've ever heard a package like this, you'd be tempted to rip out your EFI, I'll guarantee that.
IMO- properly tuned webers are one of the easiest, cheapest and coolest way to gain HP. EFI may be more efficient, but I would not say the best all the time. If you've ever heard a package like this, you'd be tempted to rip out your EFI, I'll guarantee that.
01-14-05, 02:47 PM
#52
it is tempting, and it looks bad ***, and can make tons of power, and is a lot cheaper than EFI (where carburetion rules-expense), but don't tell me this doesnt look cool either!!!!
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting
01-14-05, 03:47 PM
#54
Nikki-Modder Rex-Rodder
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Kids these days. 
They just don't have the patience to learn the basics anymore, and because they lack that patience, they don't concider the wisdom that comes with experience a true form of education.
In their first semester of tech school they think they know it all.
They just don't have the patience to learn the basics anymore, and because they lack that patience, they don't concider the wisdom that comes with experience a true form of education.
In their first semester of tech school they think they know it all.
01-14-05, 04:01 PM
#55
basics = experience
patience = reading good stuff and bad crap here @ this forum
ok ok so let's cut this argument in short.
Weber downdrafts and the FI downdrafts are the BEST.
and maybe the 55 DCOE
after much comparison, the weber is just simpler to work with; changing jets, tunability, and no doubt it looks hard compared to a 4 barrel carby. also, MORE POWER!! WHO SAYS WEBERS AREN'T STREETABLE?!
and i give credit to wackyracer for showing me the light... never believed him @ first, after driving his cars.... there's no coming back 2 a nikki or any other carb.
and yes, my opinion is what matters
patience = reading good stuff and bad crap here @ this forum
ok ok so let's cut this argument in short.
Weber downdrafts and the FI downdrafts are the BEST.
and maybe the 55 DCOE
after much comparison, the weber is just simpler to work with; changing jets, tunability, and no doubt it looks hard compared to a 4 barrel carby. also, MORE POWER!! WHO SAYS WEBERS AREN'T STREETABLE?!
and i give credit to wackyracer for showing me the light... never believed him @ first, after driving his cars.... there's no coming back 2 a nikki or any other carb.
and yes, my opinion is what matters
01-14-05, 04:40 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Sterling
Kids these days.
They just don't have the patience to learn the basics anymore, and because they lack that patience, they don't concider the wisdom that comes with experience a true form of education.
In their first semester of tech school they think they know it all.
They just don't have the patience to learn the basics anymore, and because they lack that patience, they don't concider the wisdom that comes with experience a true form of education.
In their first semester of tech school they think they know it all.
I like fuel injection better because of its precision, its ease of tuning (you press a button on a laptop instead of changing jets out with a screwdriver), its drivability in adverse conditions (although many carbureted setups start and drive well in cold climates, etc), and its versatility (you can get extremely good gas mileage when cruising from closed loop 02 sensor operation, and lay on the throttle and immediately have power and the correct air/fuel ratio, something not easily obtained with carburetion). Often times fuel injection allows for complete ignition control as well. I don't like re-curving distributer spark curves, I would rather press a button.
Not to say that carburetion and tuning carburetors is not an art, but it is becoming a lost one... and that is because of the advancements in technology, causing both easier tuning and higher efficiency.
01-14-05, 05:12 PM
#57
One can argue that while some people are too impatient or maybe afraid to go back and learn the basics of carbs, it can also be argued that too many people are also too lazy and afraid to go out and learn how to tune a standalone. They are no harder to learn and a standalone doesn't require dyno tuning any more than a carb does. Everybody always wrongly says they do. If you can get a carb running good without a dyno, you can do the same thing for fuel injection.
The myth that carbs are cheaper than fuel injection is pure fiction. A good carb is not cheap. However sometimes a cheap carb can be made to work good. If you have a fuel injection equipped car and want to convert it over to carb, you have to address the fuel system issue. The same is true in reverse so you can't argue any one way in favor of a system in that regards. If it already has a carb and you want to change carbs, then you may not need to touch the fuel system. Likewise going from 1 fuel injection system to another. Intake manifolding is also not that big an issue like many claim. Any manifold can be made to work with aftermarket fuel injection with little or no work. It doesn't have to be complicated. With a carb, even if you have to change it, they aren't that expensive. If your car isn't carb'd now, this is an expense that will add on to the price of the carb. You can convert a fuel injected car over for a few hundred dollars easily. You can also do standalone just as cheap. Both types of systems can also get to be very expensive depending on how you do it. The price argument that one is cheaper than the other is invalid. It depends what you are doing. I've got a $140 Megasquirt that I built and a Ford EDIS-4 ignition system out of a junkyard for $40 so you can't tell me it was expensive for me. I know others that have spent thousands. You can't also claim that one system is necessarily harder to use than the other. Standalone is simple to learn. It isn't as bad as it sounds. Neither are carbs. Both require a degree of experience in order to get good at it though but neither requires dyno time to get a good running car. Both can also be made to run very well.
In the end it comes down soley to what you like and are comfortable with. It's your car and what you like is all that matters regardless of what others think.
The myth that carbs are cheaper than fuel injection is pure fiction. A good carb is not cheap. However sometimes a cheap carb can be made to work good. If you have a fuel injection equipped car and want to convert it over to carb, you have to address the fuel system issue. The same is true in reverse so you can't argue any one way in favor of a system in that regards. If it already has a carb and you want to change carbs, then you may not need to touch the fuel system. Likewise going from 1 fuel injection system to another. Intake manifolding is also not that big an issue like many claim. Any manifold can be made to work with aftermarket fuel injection with little or no work. It doesn't have to be complicated. With a carb, even if you have to change it, they aren't that expensive. If your car isn't carb'd now, this is an expense that will add on to the price of the carb. You can convert a fuel injected car over for a few hundred dollars easily. You can also do standalone just as cheap. Both types of systems can also get to be very expensive depending on how you do it. The price argument that one is cheaper than the other is invalid. It depends what you are doing. I've got a $140 Megasquirt that I built and a Ford EDIS-4 ignition system out of a junkyard for $40 so you can't tell me it was expensive for me. I know others that have spent thousands. You can't also claim that one system is necessarily harder to use than the other. Standalone is simple to learn. It isn't as bad as it sounds. Neither are carbs. Both require a degree of experience in order to get good at it though but neither requires dyno time to get a good running car. Both can also be made to run very well.
In the end it comes down soley to what you like and are comfortable with. It's your car and what you like is all that matters regardless of what others think.
01-14-05, 06:51 PM
#58
Savanna Rx-7
which is better? depends soley upon your application, there are times when a carb is more desireable, (like when you get it for free and can't afford a tuner)(my first weber about 17 years ago). now days I have the cash to buy a stand alone, and they have mutated to the point that most of us with a little effort can figure them out, but once again on a 20 y/old car who cares. if you are talking straight performance buy a 2nd or 3rd gen and get over it, if you drive a 1st gen for nostalgia purposes (like me) stick with the carb, it gives flavor to the mix.
Lately I have noticed a preponderance to some twits who have brought the 2nd gen/3rd gen attitude to the 1st gen section..... take it back to the 2nd/3rd gen forum we don't want your pissyness, your ******** punk attitudes, nor your stupidity. this is aimed at a couple of the posters on this thread PM me if ya want a flame war, i'd rather do it in the lounge and not waste space here.
ken
Lately I have noticed a preponderance to some twits who have brought the 2nd gen/3rd gen attitude to the 1st gen section..... take it back to the 2nd/3rd gen forum we don't want your pissyness, your ******** punk attitudes, nor your stupidity. this is aimed at a couple of the posters on this thread PM me if ya want a flame war, i'd rather do it in the lounge and not waste space here.
ken
01-14-05, 07:18 PM
#60
I hate because I'm bored.
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The best thing about a carb vs EFI is the SOUND. Compare the original Ferarri Testarossa to the later models. There will never be anything so sweet as a mid-60s Ferarri V-12 running full bore down the Muselanne straight. Even with a nice exhaust kit a Chevy 454 of the modern era is no match for the sound from my uncles 454 swapped 66 Chevelle SS.
The area where EFI wins is efficiency. If you spent the same on a carb that you spent on EFI you could easily get the same, if not more power. However, the fuel economy would not match up at all.
Edit: NASCAR may be a joke as far as the tracks they pick go, but theres no argument that their engines are top of the line.
The area where EFI wins is efficiency. If you spent the same on a carb that you spent on EFI you could easily get the same, if not more power. However, the fuel economy would not match up at all.
Edit: NASCAR may be a joke as far as the tracks they pick go, but theres no argument that their engines are top of the line.
01-14-05, 11:43 PM
#61
Nascar engines are top notch, but nothing else.... not on topic so ill stop here.
Kenn Chan: some of us dont like second gens, can't afford 3rd gens, and simply love first gens. I enjoy having an old car with the technologically impaired look on the outside, with new technology on the inside....
Kenn Chan: some of us dont like second gens, can't afford 3rd gens, and simply love first gens. I enjoy having an old car with the technologically impaired look on the outside, with new technology on the inside....
01-15-05, 03:08 AM
#62
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Interesting points, but SO much misinformation. Like most internet forums, lot's of highly opinionated people who have "heard" a lot that they now believe - but not much actual research to back it up.
Which makes more power - carb or FI? In the simplest sense, neither! Combustion is a CHEMICAL reaction where a very specific amount of molecules react with another very specific amount of molecules to produce different molecules and thermal energy. If the ratio of molecules is theoretically perfect and no unburned components remain, that ratio is said to be "stoichiometric" and produces a mathematically predictable amount of thermal energy. SO a properly set up carb, and a properly programmed FI system will produce the exact same amount of power in a laboratory with all other factors being equal. It's the real world and it's endless set of variables that mess things up. Weber, Delorto, and Mikuni are famous for making carbs that vary the fuel to air mixture over an extended set of variables similar to a modern fuel injection map. They typically break the rev range down into three parts that overlap each other to some degree: idle, midrange, and top end. Idle jets control the idle, mains control the midrange, and air correctors tune the upper range. Throughout the process the emulsion tubes and fuel level as controlled by the floats further affect the curve based on demand. As complex as that sounds, it still leaves some situations where the carb is just not giving the motor the optimum fuel mix. In racing, carbs are still quite popular because they are much less expensive than an aftermarket FI system, relatively easy to set up and tune, and work pretty well because the number of parameters they have to work on is greatly reduced - the motor is warm, and the throttle is mostly either all the way open, or all the way shut. FI, in comparison, can have much more complex fuel maps which makes for good drivability in a lot more diverse conditions. One of the biggest advantages is the cold engine circuit that greatly improves starting and warming up. The primary reason that new cars all come with fuel injection has more to do with fuel economy and emissions than outright performance. If you've ever gotten behind a carbueretted vehicle chugging away to work on a cold morning, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It smells like someone is pouring raw gas through your vents. That kind of emissions would prevent a car from being legally sold these days. I read a couple of years ago that it takes 100 new Mustang GT's to make the same emissions as ONE 1965 289 coupe! So, if you can deal with the initial cost and complicated setup and programming of an aftermarket Fi system, you will be rewarded with better all around drivability than a carb. Just remember that if you go to a dragstrip and both of you are running wide open, a carbed car is at no natural disadvantage to a FI car in overall power if all other things are equal.
Which makes more power - carb or FI? In the simplest sense, neither! Combustion is a CHEMICAL reaction where a very specific amount of molecules react with another very specific amount of molecules to produce different molecules and thermal energy. If the ratio of molecules is theoretically perfect and no unburned components remain, that ratio is said to be "stoichiometric" and produces a mathematically predictable amount of thermal energy. SO a properly set up carb, and a properly programmed FI system will produce the exact same amount of power in a laboratory with all other factors being equal. It's the real world and it's endless set of variables that mess things up. Weber, Delorto, and Mikuni are famous for making carbs that vary the fuel to air mixture over an extended set of variables similar to a modern fuel injection map. They typically break the rev range down into three parts that overlap each other to some degree: idle, midrange, and top end. Idle jets control the idle, mains control the midrange, and air correctors tune the upper range. Throughout the process the emulsion tubes and fuel level as controlled by the floats further affect the curve based on demand. As complex as that sounds, it still leaves some situations where the carb is just not giving the motor the optimum fuel mix. In racing, carbs are still quite popular because they are much less expensive than an aftermarket FI system, relatively easy to set up and tune, and work pretty well because the number of parameters they have to work on is greatly reduced - the motor is warm, and the throttle is mostly either all the way open, or all the way shut. FI, in comparison, can have much more complex fuel maps which makes for good drivability in a lot more diverse conditions. One of the biggest advantages is the cold engine circuit that greatly improves starting and warming up. The primary reason that new cars all come with fuel injection has more to do with fuel economy and emissions than outright performance. If you've ever gotten behind a carbueretted vehicle chugging away to work on a cold morning, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It smells like someone is pouring raw gas through your vents. That kind of emissions would prevent a car from being legally sold these days. I read a couple of years ago that it takes 100 new Mustang GT's to make the same emissions as ONE 1965 289 coupe! So, if you can deal with the initial cost and complicated setup and programming of an aftermarket Fi system, you will be rewarded with better all around drivability than a carb. Just remember that if you go to a dragstrip and both of you are running wide open, a carbed car is at no natural disadvantage to a FI car in overall power if all other things are equal.
01-15-05, 03:19 AM
#63
FD > FB > FC
the advantage fuel injection has is the ability to control the fuel all throughout the powerband to maximize performance.
Carbs limit you in that area, but yeah, my weber sounds BEASTLY
Carbs limit you in that area, but yeah, my weber sounds BEASTLY
01-15-05, 08:25 AM
#64
Nikki-Modder Rex-Rodder
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Originally Posted by shm21284
I enjoy having an old car with the technologically impaired look on the outside, with new technology on the inside....
01-15-05, 08:42 AM
#65
Nikki-Modder Rex-Rodder
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Originally Posted by Boswoj
Weber, Delorto, and Mikuni are famous for making carbs that vary the fuel to air mixture over an extended set of variables similar to a modern fuel injection map.
Supposedly Mel can make a Weber sing at all octaves, but I dunno.
I'm still waiting for Carlos to race his Sterling Carbed 13b against a Weber that Mel set up for one of his bitches, but something keeps happening to put off the race.
Carlos never heeds my jetting advice anyway, even though I built the ******* thing. Plus I hear he shifts @ 4000 RPM cause he's afraid of busting one of those purdy apex seals.
01-15-05, 09:31 AM
#66
Another thing that I personally like about carbs over EFI is the response time.
Now I'll admit first that I haven't driven any real *performance* EFI setups, but your average EFI Daily Driver has the "Hit the gas - pause - Feel Response" thing going, while my Sterling Nikki has the "press the gasBANGPerformance!" thing going... now notice I didn't say "mash the gas" 'cause I have mechanical secondaries
But This debate could go back and forth forever.
IMHO, current cars have EFI because it offers better emissions, better gas milage, and better drivability across the most diverse conditions. Sure my Nikki *had* an altitude compensator, but that clunky mechanical device can't possibly do as much compensation as a computer-controlled fuel map can.
EFI can control A/F ratios as well as Ignition Timing. --> Ultimate Tunability/Programability
Carbs don't require a laptop or expensive handheld computer linkup to tune --> Ultimate Simplicity in Tuning
Honestly, I like things simple. I like the idea that if I need to change something about my carb I just have to have a screwdriver (something I carry with me anyway) instead of a laptop with expensive software (something I leave at work or home).
They both have their ups and downs. For me, I prefer carbed simplicity and affordability. My car came with a carb, if it had EFI like the ugly-duckling second gens I'd probably be singing a different tune... and be further in debt trying to squeeze the most power out it that I can
Jon
Now I'll admit first that I haven't driven any real *performance* EFI setups, but your average EFI Daily Driver has the "Hit the gas - pause - Feel Response" thing going, while my Sterling Nikki has the "press the gasBANGPerformance!" thing going... now notice I didn't say "mash the gas" 'cause I have mechanical secondaries
But This debate could go back and forth forever.
IMHO, current cars have EFI because it offers better emissions, better gas milage, and better drivability across the most diverse conditions. Sure my Nikki *had* an altitude compensator, but that clunky mechanical device can't possibly do as much compensation as a computer-controlled fuel map can.
EFI can control A/F ratios as well as Ignition Timing. --> Ultimate Tunability/Programability
Carbs don't require a laptop or expensive handheld computer linkup to tune --> Ultimate Simplicity in Tuning
Honestly, I like things simple. I like the idea that if I need to change something about my carb I just have to have a screwdriver (something I carry with me anyway) instead of a laptop with expensive software (something I leave at work or home).
They both have their ups and downs. For me, I prefer carbed simplicity and affordability. My car came with a carb, if it had EFI like the ugly-duckling second gens I'd probably be singing a different tune... and be further in debt trying to squeeze the most power out it that I can
Jon
01-15-05, 09:32 AM
#67
Note: The "BANG" above doesn't refer to a backfire, but rather to response time
Though I s'pose it could... I'm just not tuned rich enough for that
Hyper4mance2k and hondah8r: I'm going to overlook your posts this time, but I don't want to read **** like that in your posts again. Nor do I want to see lashing out like that. If you have problems, take it to the lounge or another forum, or do it in PMs. Don't do it here. Since it didn't develop into a big open flame war, and because I didn't catch it until later, I'm not going to do anything big, but consider this your warning. If you have any problems with this, PM me, don't follow this up in open forum. I post it here, because it happened here.
Jon
Though I s'pose it could... I'm just not tuned rich enough for that
Hyper4mance2k and hondah8r: I'm going to overlook your posts this time, but I don't want to read **** like that in your posts again. Nor do I want to see lashing out like that. If you have problems, take it to the lounge or another forum, or do it in PMs. Don't do it here. Since it didn't develop into a big open flame war, and because I didn't catch it until later, I'm not going to do anything big, but consider this your warning. If you have any problems with this, PM me, don't follow this up in open forum. I post it here, because it happened here.
Jon
Last edited by vipernicus42; 01-15-05 at 09:38 AM.
01-18-05, 12:58 PM
#71
hmm... make a random comment about how cool REPUs are (to throw the thread back off topic even more), or close the thread... dont' make me choose
Jk... I think it would be interesting to see. While I agree that it probably wouldn't make as much tunable, cold-weather drivable, gas-efficient power, I KNOW it could make more than your average GSL-SE 13b. And it might get closer to the Rx8's output than you think... When you don't have to worry about emissions or fuel efficiency, good things happen... Plus, you're dumping it into a 1st gen, so you have less weight.
Now what I'd love to see is a ported, supercharged FI Renesis in a 1st gen
Repus Rock.
Jon
Jk... I think it would be interesting to see. While I agree that it probably wouldn't make as much tunable, cold-weather drivable, gas-efficient power, I KNOW it could make more than your average GSL-SE 13b. And it might get closer to the Rx8's output than you think... When you don't have to worry about emissions or fuel efficiency, good things happen... Plus, you're dumping it into a 1st gen, so you have less weight.
Now what I'd love to see is a ported, supercharged FI Renesis in a 1st gen
Repus Rock.
Jon
