A rule of thumb my experienced racers and researchers already told me is the fact that, "if something better can be made, they would've already done so". Such as motor oil, where thay can make one that lasts much longer. However, there's always a bad side effect to almost everything that is good. Such as the oil additives (dura lube, pro-long, slick 50, motor up, etc), where they say most are made of PTFE (which converts to a solid) or chrorine based (which converts to hydrochloric acid), which can be detrimental to engine life in the long run. In a way, it's like a car on methamphetamines.... it'll perform good, fast and efficient, but a shortened life. You can disagree with me, but I love my car to death and would not make that sacrifice over a few dollars or a few gallons. Then again,I drive like an old man.

 

As far as the "if something better can be made, they would've already done so" comment I don't agree. If we all lived by those rules we'd still believe the earth was flat and cruise around on square wheels. Because hell, if round wheels worked, someone would have already made them right?

If petrol companies could add something to fuel that netted 20-30% better MPG fuel consumers wouldn't spend as much money at the pump each week. Not to mention cars would put out a lot less harmful emissions. But of course "Big oil" just wants to make money and sell as much gas as possible....and can U blame them?

Water injected carbs can net huge MPG gains and plans for them have been out since the 60s. There was a water injected v8 camero in the 70's that netted 55mpg. But it never made it to production...Hmm wonder why? If you are a large enough company, you can pay whom ever you want to keep the general public in the dark. If they offered me 100 mill not to produce my 100+ mpg car I'd do it...

What you all are saying is understandable, and I'm definatly not asking anyone to do this. I'm just putting it out there for curious minds... I've personally chose to do it and will let you all know if anything good or bad happens. But worse case, I'll have to replace my 20 year old fuel lines and pump and rebuild my carb. All of these things need to be done anyway.

Anyone in the KS area got a tow truck just incase?

 

Oh chemistry. All this really does is create more surface area. i'm supposing that the acetone is going to react with gas-o-line on a molecular level, some how decreasing the intermolecular forces between gasoline molecules. This reduces the force exerted on the surface molecules of a gas dropplet, thus expanding the area.

You have to look at the Lewis structures of gasoline and acetone to see how they would interact. But I'm not smart enough to figure it out from that point.

Though I might try it in my MR2.

 

Man just buy higher grade gas @ Sunoco & buy an Octane boost can from Nitros or the 98 octane boost forgot who makes that one & add that you'll feel a little more kick why not wait til all the facts are in about the acetone & then see whats the verdict but make sure that when it comes in they tried it on a rotary cause Rotary & Piston do not have the same components & you know they never really try things with anything but a piston. So my rotary bro's dont fight amoungst each other lets just wait til the facts are in unless one of you have already tried it ,It's useless to say it works or doesnt work. & you cant just go by a short study it should be long term study might work good in the begining stages but might wreck seals & stuff long term or may not b4 somebody bashes me for going against it . I'll wait a year after the test cause like somebody else said I too love my Lil FB & would hate to find myself rebuilding the motor although im doing an engine swap this year i sure would hate to ruin a good 12A..

 

Hummm... I'm pretty sure that if you put GAS in that same cup it will melt just *** fast...

 

Not sure what your point is there. But I'm not trying to increase octane or make more power. If thats what you want definatly go another route.

Im trying to use whats there more efficently. And since rotarys esp waste a large amount of fuel in the first place (obvious by the horrible emissions they produce) acetone might be even more beneficial to us that the piston guys.

Like I said, I'm already running a tank full. And I'll be happy to be the test subject for you all. I have to say so far I don't notice anything different. I've put in 3 tank fuls since I've owned the car and get around 18-19 mpg city driving. We'll see at the end of the week when its time for a fill up at the pumps.

 

Hmm, Freudian slip there Ray?

 

Well I'm glad one of you guys got my joke, thanks Kentetsu.

Now on the acetone issue, I haven't done the research but I do work in a lab, and acetone is one nasty solvent. It will, for example, eat a styrofoam or plastic cup in about 2 seconds.

Gasoline will not, nor does gas remove paint from metal surfaces - notice that under your gas cap, after twenty years of gas spilling there, the paint is in pretty good shape (the rubber strip probably is falling off, but that is because gas is a good solvent for the adhesive tape that holds it on). Now, please don't try pouring any acetone on your paint job, it will take off the clear coat for sure and will probably attack the paint too, but then I haven't tried this experiment.

So I have to wonder what acetone would be doing to all the plastic and rubber seals in the fuel system.

Also buying and storing acetone has got to be a nuisance, the stuff is extremely volatile and a severe explosion/fire hazard. I think I'll be sticking to my low octane gasoline for now.

Ray

 

OK, I just read the article that was linked in the first post. It says:


"Surface tension presents an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees Fahrenheit before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline."

"Acetone drastically reduces the surface tension. Most fuel molecules are sluggish with respect to their natural frequency. Acetone has an inherent molecular vibration that "stirs up" the fuel molecules, to break the surface tension. This results in a more complete vaporization with other factors remaining the same. More complete vaporization means less wasted fuel, hence the increased gas mileage from the increased thermal efficiency."

This is pure bullshit, gasoline has no surface tension because it is an organic molecule that has no polarity. Water has surface tension because of hydrogen bonds that form between the polar water molecules. (Also, water boils at 100 degrees F, not 300 degrees, as this link claims).

Gasoline, being a hydrocarbon, has no polarity and no surface tension. If you don't believe me, grab one of your wife's juice glasses and fill it with water - you will see that at the surface the water is not flat where it contacts the glass but instead the water creeps up the glass a bit due to hydogen bonding with the glass surface. This is called a meniscus and you won't see one if you put the water in a plastic cup because the plastic has no polarity (plastic is a hydrocarbon). (Incidently, the surface tension of water is what allows very tall trees to draw water up to their highest leaves and branches - gas would have to be pumped).

Now put some gas in the glass - you won't see a meniscus and your wife will probably kill you.

What acetone does to gas and fuel economy is an interesting question, but this bullshit link has no credibility and I wouldn't believe anything it says. I'm sticking to low octane, the manna of rotary engines.

Ray

 

In the sunday paper down here in wichita, they had the question about acetone, and they said it doesn't work... they went to one of the gas places in town and asked them about it and they said it didn't work and that they had machines that tested it and it doesn't work... the only thing it does for your car is eat the rubber

 

Gasoline will eat styrofoam..... You can make home made napalm with it.... Also on my 98 grand prix there are bubles in the paint & a rust spot in the area below the gas filler door ..... only place on the entire car .... so yes I would have to say cas can take off paint

 

Take a look at some of the skeptics.

The Click and Clack brothers:
http://www.helenair.com/articles/200...1012106_03.txt

From the guide for fuel saving gadgets:
http://www.fuelsaving.info/acetone.htm

 

Yes and no. Organic molecules still have intermolecular forces, sure gasoline may not be a dipole. But it still has dispersion forces and those due to the mass of the molecule. Gasoline molecules have from 7 to 11 carbon atoms in the chain, that would make for some decent mass. And then there are additives, oxygenates for anti-knock purposes, anti-corrosives, cleaners, tons of stuff. Who knows how these effect the intermolecular forces of gasoline.

And while hydrogen bonds are incredibly stong, we are not trying to ignite water in our engines.

The website can and probably is bunk, but thats no reason to misuse science.

 

Hmm, lets ask fuel-systems engineer who works for one of the major oil companies. That makes sense. I'm sure they won't be bias in any way.

Does anyone have an emissions sniffer at their shops? That would be a really easy way to tell for sure?

 

Water boils at 212 F, or 100 C. I think the 300 F point he was trying to make is that surface tension causes a increase in the energy requirement to jump from liquid to gas.

Gasoline may be a partial dipole, its chains may have polar molecules (such as oxygen) which would make the molecule partially electrophilic. I don't know the exact structure of gasoline so this is all speculation.

 

Im pretty sure this has already been covered but all that octane is, is the gasolines ability to reduce knock, if any performance gains exist from it, I havnt heard any.... And why do they sell octane booster, claiming HP gains? the same reason the sell belt dressing to claim it reduces belt noise.... read the ingridient list on belt dressing, it contains petroleum distilites, that of course eat rubber. "But wait that doesnt make any sense, arent belts made from rubber?"
If someone can put a dollar in their pocket they'll do it.
And its not just the petrol companies that get more money by doing these things, have you heard how many conspiracys have gone on over the years, big name car manufacturers accepting money from petrol companies to slow or even cancel there alternate fuels programs..... Its mostly american companies too. Also did you know that many empty oil wells are actually refilling themselves!!?? WHY YOU ASK? Well aliens sure didnt put oil in the ground, it is produced naturally in the ground by decompisition and other natural phenomenom. It takes hundreds of years but oil is a renewable resource. Look up how oil gets into the ground.... its a scientific fact, and why havent you heard? because enviromentalists and oil companies profit from the publics ignorance, the less you know the better for them. Hell think about it by the time hybrids even become hugely mainstream (as in alot of people owning them) gas will probably double. again why? so oil companies continue to profit, they are greedy corrupt individuals, we are not going to run out of petrol and oil for thousands of years, and by then we will have alternate fuels and it will have time to replenish itself. Most of the bottom of the ocean has oil, as well as mexico, and alaska, much of it untapped.

So maybe they already did think of this... but then realized they wouldnt profit from it, I think its a good idea, dont know if Ill try it but we'll see.

 

Now we are getting somewhere, these links pretty much nail down the science behind adding acetone to gasoline (ie, there isn't any science, kind of like Intelligent Design).

Thanks to kerniew:

The Click and Clack brothers:
http://www.helenair.com/articles/20...01012106_03.txt

From the guide for fuel saving gadgets:
http://www.fuelsaving.info/acetone.htm

Roen, you are of course correct, water boils at 212 degrees F, not 100 degrees F. I'm not used to the F scale and think in centigrade, so let's call that a typo. But it is a well known fact that water at atmospheric pressure boils at 212 degrees F, NOT 300 degrees F, as the original link claims.

As far as the bonds between octane molecules, there are essentially none. The only exception are the very weak van der waals interactions, which are essentially temporary, very weak induced dipole interactions that are completely different than the hydrogen bonds responsible for the surface tension in water. It is the claim by the original link in this thread, that water and gas have similar surface tensions, that I objected to earlier.

In fact, water and gas don't mix precisely because one is a dipole (with strong intramolecular interactions and high surface tensions) and the other is not (no intramolecular interactions and no surface tension). What holds gasoline molecules together is their expulsion from polar environments like water, the so called hydrophobic effect, not interactions between the gasoline molecules themselves.

But then, who cares about science anyway?

Except rotorheads, of course.

Ray

 

Well I have tried it thru one tank of gas. Heres my scenario. I drive the same route everyday in my DD. I drive the same speeds and use the same technique to minimize the margain of error. I carefully check my milage at each fill up. Ive been doing this for months. My milage hasnt varied much (less than %5). Tested one tank of acetone added fuel (2oz per 10 gal). No change, none nada nate. Doesnt mean its bunk, but Im not impressed. Hasnt hurt anything either, and this was a month ago.

 

The alleged benefits of the gasoline/acetone mixture suggest lowered emissions, as well as improved economy. I have NOT been able to get my '82 n/a to pass emissions (in Missouri), which means no license plates!!!

Has anyone noted improvement at the tail-pipe? Perhaps someone could help me get my rotary legal! HELP!

I'm sure there is much info already on this site; I'd appreciate links to any good info you guys might know of.

Thanks,
Doug

 

VXTURBOXV - whats the purpose for the toluene and xylene in your race gas. Whats the advantage?

 

OK, I did the experiments. I got a styrofoam cup and went out back and filled it up with gasoline. Soslowgtp is exactly right, the gas ate right through the styrofoam. Then I wiped my hood down with a gas soaked rag, waited an hour and wiped it off. Looks ok to me. I kind of know how the acetone experiment will come out so I didn't do that one.

Ray

 

Any car with a good clear coat should be ok with the whole gas onpaint thing..... I geuss my GM paint job is crap... lol.... anyways, if you do it to base paint, or flat / semi-gloss it'll probably rub some off on the rag... if windex willtake off most semi-gloss and soapy water will take off flat I'm sure gas will have no problems with most paints.... I could always be wrong though

 

anything "rubber" in the fuel delivery system isnt rubber its neoprene

 

sorry accidently pressed "enter" (not finished) so therefore it wont dissolve in the acetone

 

Cleans, raises octane, helps prevent detonation. All things that turbo cars need. But I don't add it to race gas, I used it instead of.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc...explained.html

Great info there.