64mgb

iTrader: (1)

I originally posted this over on nopistons (and then inadvertently posted it in the "parts for sale" section here...sorry), but only got a couple of replies, so thought I'd try it here...

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Hey guys (and gals) -

First time rebuilder and I'm planning on doing a street port on my 6 port 13B from an 89-91...I have many questions.

1. Does Judge Ito (or anyone else) have templates for this motor? I've done a lot of reading and searching, and there are many mentions of the Judge Ito templates, but I haven't found a definitive source for them.

2. Do you enlarge all ports? Primary, secondary and auxilliary?

3. What are the best tools to use?

4. Do you have to drill the roll pins in the exhaust port sleeves to remove them?

5. Is it wise to leave these out after enlarging the exhaust port?

6. I'm planning on putting a Racing Beat Holley and intake on this motor...will this setup have actuators for the sleeves in the auxilliary ports, or do you just remove them and run them wide open?

7. Do templates include the runners? If not, what's the best strategy for enlarging these?

8. Is my plan sound? Besides the street port and RB Holley, I'll put on a header and free flow exhaust. Any recommendations for the exhaust? I've seen it stated here (by mazdaspeed7 I think) that the Racing Beat header "produces more noise than HP"...is this true?

Sorry for the multitude of questions. I want to make sure I get this right. I have some spare 12A plates and a 12A rotor housing I can practice on. I've done a lot of reading and a lot of searching, and it's really difficult to piece together all the answers I need, so I hope someone will take the time to help me out here.

Thanks,
Rich
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Since I posted this I've been thinking maybe I won't do the street port. According to Mazdatrix you don't gain that much and it's more difficult/dangerous than doing a 12A or a 4 port 13B. If I don't street port it, will I still see significant improvement from a Racing Beat Holley/intake/header/exhaust?

Thanks,
Rich

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

1. I don't know if Ito has those templates, but you should probably PM or call him. I think I read that Mazdatrix sells them, but I don't know if that's true. You can e-mail or call them to confirm.

2. You should, but you MUST BE VERY CAREFUL. It's very easy to cut into the water jacket on these 6-port housings. I've never done a 13B-T, but I have tried a 13B-E and I cut into the water jacket with the primaries. My best advice would be to seek guidance from someone with experience on porting 6-ports.

3. I've used my Dremel and drill for every port job I've ever done. You could also use a die grinder if you have good compressor.

4. I don't know.

5. I don't know, but I would leave it out if it got to be too much of a pain. Actually, I'm thinking of just getting some TII rotor housings whenever I get around to trying another 6-port.

6. I don't think the RB/Holley manifold will actuate 5 and 6, but you could e-mail or call Brian at Racing Beat - he answers all of the questions I have.

7. No they don't have a template for the runner (at least RB doesn't). I'd say just be reasonable (meaning, don't be greedy and don't just say bigger is better!) Think of damage what can be damaged if you don't leave enough material. Also consider the fact that you're not running a turbo.

8. I believe the RB header to be the best out there. The only other header I've ever tried in 18 years was Rotary Engineering, but they no longer exist. I guess my opinion may be biased, but they've never let me down. In fact I believe you'd be well served by using a complete exhaust from RB for all but the most hardcore N/A (pronounced: not streetable)applications. Obviously this is just my opinion, not an indisputable fact ...

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input diabolical1...I appreciate it. What's your opinion of this setup: 13B 6 port with no porting, Racing Beat Holley and intake, Racing Beat header and exhaust. Willl I get enough out of this setup (with no porting) to make it worth the (roughly) $1700 to do it? n I'm not looking for *****-to-the-wall horsepower, just a nice improvement.

Thanks,
Rich

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

i'm assuming you're currently running a stock 12A then?

you will definitely get nice kick in the pants from your proposed setup when you get everything tuned right - this is fact, not just an opinion. will it be worth the money you put in? only you can answer that, but i honestly wouldn't think twice about spending for my car (and maybe that's my problem ) i haven't looked at the figures for the 6-port with Holley, but i can't imagine it would stray too far from the 175 HP neighborhood ...

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

just out of curiosity, what is your proposed setup for fuel supply?

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Actually, I'm not currently running anything. My 85 GS project car came with a 12A and it was garbage (rotor housings are shot). It also came with a spare 13B that the previous owner was going to install. That's what I'm working on now. My point of reference will be my bone stock '79 (12A), so 175 HP would be a very nice improvement, and is about what I am shooting for.

As for fuel supply, I haven't gotten that far yet...any suggestions?

Thanks,
Rich

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

personally, i've decided to make mar3 happy and try a Mallory fuel pump whenever my Carter goes belly-up, but i have no experiences with them. maybe you can PM him. as i said, i use a Carter now (and i've learned to live with the noise - actually i got it shut up quite a bit with some sound deadening materials). i also have used Holley pumps, just can't remember if it was Blue or Red. my point is you have choices. personally, i'd used Holley with the Holley ...

get the 4.5-9.0 PSI Holley regulator though because you'll need like 6 or 7 PSI for you carbie. that's what we run on my brother's Rx-7.

based on my experiences so far, think about upgrading your ignition system with that 6-port. i've done several things with 12As and never once had ignition problems until i started messing with 13Bs. just some food for thought ...

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the fuel supply advice...I'll keep it in mind. I plan on doing a direct fire ignition once I have everything working ok, but I want to keep it simple at first.

calvinpaul

iTrader: (2)

In answer to your question earlier, I have a 4 prot 12a, so really not much to do with you. But like diabolical1 I am using a dremel. As far as the runners go, I have never seen anything like that, just the racing beat templets. If you have access to a flowbench I suggest you use that to tell how your runners should be changed.
You can also look at Paul Yaw's website. Here are a couple of sites for you:
http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/porting.htm

For the flowbench...good reading:
http://www.yawpower.com/Flow%20Testing.html

Crap, I can't find Yaw's site, someone will have it though.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I've got a flowbench. It's really strange that some of the things that you would think would work good for flow, actually don't. It's kind of humbling and eye opening when you see it.

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Where do you guys get your rebuild kits? Do you replace everything every time? The video implies that it isn't always necessary to replace some items such as side seals and springs, corner seals, apex seal springs, etc.

I know it's hard to tell from pictures, but do these bearings in the stationary gears look like they need to be replaced? How about the rotor bearings...do you usually replace them?

Sorry for so many questions...just trying to learn from those that have done this before.

Thanks,
Rich

Stevan

iTrader: (17)

I have the same engine (se13b) and want to make the most of it when I rebuid it.
One of the problems Mazdatrix talks about is the center ports can't be enlarged significantly.
What if you were to use just the 12a center plate, and do a full sp on it ?

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I'd need to see the entire bearing up close to tell for sure if it is still good but that mark you see is normal. The bearings start out as a flat piece of metal that is wrapped around and joined together there. The mark you see is from the cleanup work to make the joint smooth.

If you are still running a stock intake manifold and ecu on the GSL-SE 13B, you shouldn't use the 12A center plate. First of all it has no place for injectors and second the intake runners aren't large enough in the manifold to flow what the large ports would. You'd hurt your low end. If you have a carb, or aftermarket efi with a custom or aftermarket intake manifold, then you could make the 12A intermediate housings work just fine.

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

The shiny area is not along the joint...it's a different area on the bearing surface. Just wondering if that was normal or if it shows significant wear.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

If it's not along the joint then it probably needs replacing. better safe than sorry. Bearings are only about $20 new but either Racing Beat or Mazdatrix has them on sale for $10 right now. Just find a shop with a press and it'll only take a few minutes.

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Yea, that's kind of what I was thinking...thanks. Any other hints on the rebuild kit?

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

As you already know, you can get them through Mazdatrix or Racing Beat. Rotary Aviation has them too. Their uses Viton oil and teflon water seals and their own apex seals. The first batch of seals had issues a while back but they've taken care of it now. They also have different levels of rebuild kits. Check out this link. It will show you what each one has and how much it costs. Make your own decision on who you want to buy from.

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/overhaul_kits.htm

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I've been looking at the various kits from Racing Beat, Atkins and Rotary Aviation. Just looking for all the hints I can get. More than likely, since this is my first, I'll probably go for the whole shootin match...bearings, seals, springs, everything, just to give myself the best chance for success.

Thanks for all your help!

Rich

Stevan

iTrader: (17)

Yeah, I was thinking carb, but didn't have the forethought to think of the intake to match the 12a 4 port center, and 13b 6 port ends. Damn it, I guess we are stuck with all 6 port plates, or all 4 port.
Think I'm going with 6, ported as much as possible, carb or aftermarket efi.

Thanks.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

When I ported mine, I was going to use the 12A center plate. I have one lying around. I was going to fab up a new injector location. I got to measuring the intake runners in the manifold and also looked at the size of the primary throttle plate which is pathetic btw. There was no way that a large port was going to do much with the stock setup so I retained the stock housing. I now have a standalone ecu and a 2nd gen intake that is modified to use a single plate Mustang throttlebody. I know the throttleplate can flow enough but I still doubt the intake runners can. Maybe? A new manifold would still be better though. If you are going to carb it, go ahead.

Targa Newfoundland #702

Check out racing beat first gen section...click the drop down menu for Weber intake...click on Weber Carb - 48 IDA...then scolldown and click the pdf intake referece guide this will give the horsepower for the carb header setup for the 6 port 13b...

P.S. if my computer skils were not so limited I would have just posted the link

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Targa...good info. I'm looking to get at least 175 - 80 HP, so it looks like I can do that without the need to port the engine. I think that's what I'll do and save the porting for my next rebuild!

Rich

64mgb

iTrader: (1)

Hey, if I replace the stationary gear bearings, will they fit properly as-is, or will I need to take the e-shaft with me and have the machine shop fit them?

Nate13B

my motor is a gslse 6 port with a 12 center..It's streetported..I have a holley 600 on it and it works fine..still gotta put all the msd 6al boxes on it and a holley blue fuel pump seeing that the holley red didnt work that great..running out of fuel at top end. I'll try to posts some pics of the ports...the ports are huge..

Stevan

iTrader: (17)

Sounds good, which intake did you use?
Assuming holley 6 port, did you enlarge the runners along with the ports in the intake?
Also, I was wondering if the 600 carbs for the 4 port and 6 port have different size primaries? I'm thinking they must, and you have the carb for the 4port and ground the intake to match the carb?

Where in FL are ya?