3rd gen forum people!!
05-07-05, 01:06 AM
#1
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3rd gen forum people!!
I can honestly say this is the worst experience on the forum I have ever had.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/turbo-timers-f-gauge-not-useless-422949/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/turbo-timers-f-gauge-not-useless-422949/
05-07-05, 01:27 AM
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i dont get it, there are some valid points.. a water/oil cooled turbo will run much colder after shutdown, hence why 99% of turbo'd cars from the factory are both water/oil cooled.
my supra was water/oil cooled til i upgraded the turbo, now its just oil cooled and i make a point of letting it idle and cool down watching my EGTs til they drop (i have the EGT probe tapped directly into the hot side of the turbo) as for using a a/f meter, unless this is a wideband setup its totally pointless, just pretty lights. they only meter in open-loop, even then they arent very accurate.
you dont really need a TT, but if you need to get out of your car often after hard runs you may aswell get one for peace of mind
my supra was water/oil cooled til i upgraded the turbo, now its just oil cooled and i make a point of letting it idle and cool down watching my EGTs til they drop (i have the EGT probe tapped directly into the hot side of the turbo) as for using a a/f meter, unless this is a wideband setup its totally pointless, just pretty lights. they only meter in open-loop, even then they arent very accurate.
you dont really need a TT, but if you need to get out of your car often after hard runs you may aswell get one for peace of mind
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05-07-05, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wackyracer
Ray, Danny
You guys rolling to Mazfest tomorrow? Im taking the FB. Rolling with the old skul crew from Lincoln Heights/East Los and piston powered mazda's
You guys rolling to Mazfest tomorrow? Im taking the FB. Rolling with the old skul crew from Lincoln Heights/East Los and piston powered mazda's
05-07-05, 05:17 PM
#10
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There were a lot of good points on that thread. I'd like to make some of my own. Turbo times have a few uses that people don't think about. your cooling system and oil system are preasurized. One of the main reasons for a Turbo Timer is to help relieve the preasure out of the turbos and let it settle. However a 60 seconds of not pushing the car will fix this. think about this. your cooling system should only ever get to about 10-12 psi that's a lot of preasure and your oil sytem gets a lot more preasure. now consider what we know about preasure. that kinda of preasure in a turbo is not good at all. this is why boosting and then shutting off the car is not as big of an issue as revving it to 7k and shutting it off. once the car is off the preasure is held and slowly decreases threw passages. kind of like fuel preasure in a fuel rail. the preasure can remain several days after the car is off. now also consider that as oil is heated up it thins. if for whatever reason you were under boost and tuned the car off because you got pulled over by the cops then you have the problem of preasure mixed with a lot of heat in the turbo. more than likley even on a brand new turbo water cooled or not, oil will seep out of the seals. we are talking minute amounts of oil. after a while of this however the seals will become warn bad very quickley. this is the true reasoning behind a turbo timer. preventing oil from cooking is a secondary reason.
i also noticed in that thread that 3rd gen owners tenc to run syntheic oils. good for turbo bad for rotary engine. we all know what happens to seals and build up from the synthetics not burning completely. no matter what way you look at it, when it comes donw to it rotarys still have oil injection. so image all that build up on the exhaust flanges on their turbos. That build up soaks up heat and will make their engine and turbo hotter than normal. so they would have even more of a reason for a Turbo Timer.
In all reality though a Turbo Timer is just the lazy mans tool, or the person who doesn't have time. It'll take care of your car for you when you either can't or are too lazy.
For the people that say to turn off the car right away after parking because of ambent heat. and making the engine hotter. news flash, thats what your cooling system is for. when you shut your motor off right away the motor will likley rise uppwards of 50 degrees or so depending on what motor and such is in the engine bay because there is no air runing across the motor and the the collant is no longer transfering heat out of the motor. the best way, is to park your car and leave it running, yes the temp will rise beacaue you don't have as much air running accross the motor. wait for the temp to start to drop again and shut it off. the cars heat will raise up again after the motor is off because of ambeint heat but not as much. Old fords and some hondas ran into this problem, thats why the engine fan would stay on after turning the car off.
In my honest opinion, i let the car idel about 30 seconds, shut it off and have a timed switch on my E fan that runs for about 60 seconds after the car is off. hope this helps you sort out some stuff webb
i also noticed in that thread that 3rd gen owners tenc to run syntheic oils. good for turbo bad for rotary engine. we all know what happens to seals and build up from the synthetics not burning completely. no matter what way you look at it, when it comes donw to it rotarys still have oil injection. so image all that build up on the exhaust flanges on their turbos. That build up soaks up heat and will make their engine and turbo hotter than normal. so they would have even more of a reason for a Turbo Timer.
In all reality though a Turbo Timer is just the lazy mans tool, or the person who doesn't have time. It'll take care of your car for you when you either can't or are too lazy.
For the people that say to turn off the car right away after parking because of ambent heat. and making the engine hotter. news flash, thats what your cooling system is for. when you shut your motor off right away the motor will likley rise uppwards of 50 degrees or so depending on what motor and such is in the engine bay because there is no air runing across the motor and the the collant is no longer transfering heat out of the motor. the best way, is to park your car and leave it running, yes the temp will rise beacaue you don't have as much air running accross the motor. wait for the temp to start to drop again and shut it off. the cars heat will raise up again after the motor is off because of ambeint heat but not as much. Old fords and some hondas ran into this problem, thats why the engine fan would stay on after turning the car off.
In my honest opinion, i let the car idel about 30 seconds, shut it off and have a timed switch on my E fan that runs for about 60 seconds after the car is off. hope this helps you sort out some stuff webb
05-07-05, 06:01 PM
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Nothing wrong with a turbo timer... but I probably wouldn't use one... Its just as easy to back off over the last little bit of driving, and leave the motor running for 30 seconds while you unbuckle your seatbelt, gather up your stuff, pull the face off the radio, get out of the car... by that time you should be alright and you can reach back in and shut down the motor.
As for an A/F meter... those in-dash ones don't do ****... I'll tune it with a wideband and data log over the course of a few drives. If you are running a standalone, and yer tuned properly you shouldn't be going lean.
As for an A/F meter... those in-dash ones don't do ****... I'll tune it with a wideband and data log over the course of a few drives. If you are running a standalone, and yer tuned properly you shouldn't be going lean.
05-07-05, 06:22 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by 13B4port
There were a lot of good points on that thread. I'd like to make some of my own. Turbo times have a few uses that people don't think about. your cooling system and oil system are preasurized. One of the main reasons for a Turbo Timer is to help relieve the preasure out of the turbos and let it settle. However a 60 seconds of not pushing the car will fix this. think about this. your cooling system should only ever get to about 10-12 psi that's a lot of preasure and your oil sytem gets a lot more preasure. now consider what we know about preasure. that kinda of preasure in a turbo is not good at all. this is why boosting and then shutting off the car is not as big of an issue as revving it to 7k and shutting it off. once the car is off the preasure is held and slowly decreases threw passages. kind of like fuel preasure in a fuel rail. the preasure can remain several days after the car is off. now also consider that as oil is heated up it thins. if for whatever reason you were under boost and tuned the car off because you got pulled over by the cops then you have the problem of preasure mixed with a lot of heat in the turbo. more than likley even on a brand new turbo water cooled or not, oil will seep out of the seals. we are talking minute amounts of oil. after a while of this however the seals will become warn bad very quickley. this is the true reasoning behind a turbo timer. preventing oil from cooking is a secondary reason.
i also noticed in that thread that 3rd gen owners tenc to run syntheic oils. good for turbo bad for rotary engine. we all know what happens to seals and build up from the synthetics not burning completely. no matter what way you look at it, when it comes donw to it rotarys still have oil injection. so image all that build up on the exhaust flanges on their turbos. That build up soaks up heat and will make their engine and turbo hotter than normal. so they would have even more of a reason for a Turbo Timer.
In all reality though a Turbo Timer is just the lazy mans tool, or the person who doesn't have time. It'll take care of your car for you when you either can't or are too lazy.
For the people that say to turn off the car right away after parking because of ambent heat. and making the engine hotter. news flash, thats what your cooling system is for. when you shut your motor off right away the motor will likley rise uppwards of 50 degrees or so depending on what motor and such is in the engine bay because there is no air runing across the motor and the the collant is no longer transfering heat out of the motor. the best way, is to park your car and leave it running, yes the temp will rise beacaue you don't have as much air running accross the motor. wait for the temp to start to drop again and shut it off. the cars heat will raise up again after the motor is off because of ambeint heat but not as much. Old fords and some hondas ran into this problem, thats why the engine fan would stay on after turning the car off.
In my honest opinion, i let the car idel about 30 seconds, shut it off and have a timed switch on my E fan that runs for about 60 seconds after the car is off. hope this helps you sort out some stuff webb
i also noticed in that thread that 3rd gen owners tenc to run syntheic oils. good for turbo bad for rotary engine. we all know what happens to seals and build up from the synthetics not burning completely. no matter what way you look at it, when it comes donw to it rotarys still have oil injection. so image all that build up on the exhaust flanges on their turbos. That build up soaks up heat and will make their engine and turbo hotter than normal. so they would have even more of a reason for a Turbo Timer.
In all reality though a Turbo Timer is just the lazy mans tool, or the person who doesn't have time. It'll take care of your car for you when you either can't or are too lazy.
For the people that say to turn off the car right away after parking because of ambent heat. and making the engine hotter. news flash, thats what your cooling system is for. when you shut your motor off right away the motor will likley rise uppwards of 50 degrees or so depending on what motor and such is in the engine bay because there is no air runing across the motor and the the collant is no longer transfering heat out of the motor. the best way, is to park your car and leave it running, yes the temp will rise beacaue you don't have as much air running accross the motor. wait for the temp to start to drop again and shut it off. the cars heat will raise up again after the motor is off because of ambeint heat but not as much. Old fords and some hondas ran into this problem, thats why the engine fan would stay on after turning the car off.
In my honest opinion, i let the car idel about 30 seconds, shut it off and have a timed switch on my E fan that runs for about 60 seconds after the car is off. hope this helps you sort out some stuff webb
I run Royal Purple in my engine WITH the stock OMP. If you read their website, it does not burn like typical synthetics. It actually burns alot cleaner, and is the only synthetic oil to ADD HP to a rotary. All motor oil is ashy by design. It's not made to burn. That's why some premix. I'm about to order the Rotary Aviation conversion very soon for that reason.
Ambient heat will rise inside the engine compartment, yes. But the cooling system DOES NOT stop working when you shut the engine off. If you could look inside it, it actually has a convection flow. So, the coolant will flow through the radiator, dissapating some heat from the coolant, therefore cooling the engine down. This will slow down considerably when the thermostat closes.
05-07-05, 06:42 PM
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Yes there are allot of ******, you are to sensitive, and no a turbo timer, for the purpose of a cool down, on a water cooled turbo is not needed. With oil not being in the turbo to cook there is not that chance for bearing failure. I think they were cordule (sp) considering the question and your demonor.
05-07-05, 06:57 PM
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the oil system is not depreasureized everywhere right away. 
if you don't believe me unhook something and watching the oil spill with preasure. or just hook a gauge up to the preasure side of your turbo and it'll still be under preasure. as far as the cooling system, it's not working or following, it's under preasure and all it's doing is following where is can to releive the preasure, this ussually mean but not always, flowing backwards. if the cooling system was still working properly then you wouldn't have to worry about such things as ambient heat in the engine bay. the oil cooking is a issue in turbos, i was just stating there were other reasons for a Turbo timer. for example on old LaBarens (4 cyclinder turboed) in the manual they recommended leaving the car run for about 30 seconds because of oil cooking and preasure build up. they also used the efan on after the engine was turned off beacause the turbo was mounted so close to the radiator.
if you don't believe me unhook something and watching the oil spill with preasure. or just hook a gauge up to the preasure side of your turbo and it'll still be under preasure. as far as the cooling system, it's not working or following, it's under preasure and all it's doing is following where is can to releive the preasure, this ussually mean but not always, flowing backwards. if the cooling system was still working properly then you wouldn't have to worry about such things as ambient heat in the engine bay. the oil cooking is a issue in turbos, i was just stating there were other reasons for a Turbo timer. for example on old LaBarens (4 cyclinder turboed) in the manual they recommended leaving the car run for about 30 seconds because of oil cooking and preasure build up. they also used the efan on after the engine was turned off beacause the turbo was mounted so close to the radiator.
05-07-05, 07:03 PM
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I'm not going to argue with you, but YES the cooling system does still circulate a little. You have 2 hoses, upper and lower, and the hot will go up, and the cooler will go down, thus, creating a "circulating" effect. Oil pressure should be gone within 5 seconds after shutdown of the motor everywhere because the oil pump is no longer pumping. Even though the passages are still small, the oil is "thin" (Not viscocity-wise) and will flow quickly. If I were to take the oil filter off right after shutting the motor off, or anything, it's because the oil hasn't had time to get back to the pan. It's not under pressure. Gravity is still trying to take over.
05-07-05, 07:11 PM
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i hate gravity, i've lost many battles to it and have received many trips to the hospital when i won. all i'm saying is ther is more than one reason for a Turbo Timer.
05-07-05, 10:41 PM
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I didn't care to read what prompted this, but for my experiences with 3rd gen owners, they think they are the ****. ******** is putting it lightly. Wouldn't pee on one if he was thirsting in the middle of the desert.
05-07-05, 11:01 PM
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hmmm, I love the third gen looks, one of the most beautful cars ever made--ever. But I'm not an asshat so I don't know if I'll fit in. But with a LS-1 in it I guess they wouldn't want me anyway.
05-08-05, 12:40 AM
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Was just going to quote what gen 3 owners think of gen 1 owners but then realized the wording would be immediately deleted by the moderator as not being publishable.
05-08-05, 06:27 AM
#24
Jesus is the Messiah
Yeh, don't worry about them, even at the last Maryland car meet, the 2nd and 1st gen people sit together, and the 3rd gen people form their own group away from us :p
1) Narrowband A/F has been very useful for me in troubleshooting problems quickly, and a fantastic tool for driving for better economy on my '90 'Vert, telling me the limits of where "closed loop" on the stock maps were. (That was back when I had the stock ECU)
2) Nothing wrong with Turbo Timers, exept the fact that they cost money :p But those few minutes you wait for the car to cool down, each time you go driving, add up! How much total time are you wasting? :P Also, it doesnt matter what you're using to cool the turbo, shutting it off instantly will still encourage the hot, higher pressure oil on the bearings to glaze, cook, and coke.
So, I would agree with you on both points
1) Narrowband A/F has been very useful for me in troubleshooting problems quickly, and a fantastic tool for driving for better economy on my '90 'Vert, telling me the limits of where "closed loop" on the stock maps were. (That was back when I had the stock ECU)
2) Nothing wrong with Turbo Timers, exept the fact that they cost money :p But those few minutes you wait for the car to cool down, each time you go driving, add up! How much total time are you wasting? :P Also, it doesnt matter what you're using to cool the turbo, shutting it off instantly will still encourage the hot, higher pressure oil on the bearings to glaze, cook, and coke.
So, I would agree with you on both points
05-08-05, 07:16 AM
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[QUOTE=Tofuball])
Nothing wrong with Turbo Timers, exept the fact that they cost money :p But those few minutes you wait for the car to cool down, each time you go driving, add up! How much total time are you wasting? :P Also, it doesnt matter what you're using to cool the turbo, shutting it off instantly will still encourage the hot, higher pressure oil on the bearings to glaze, cook, and coke. QUOTE]
I agree with you, turbo timers are beneficial. I have a Jspec 12A turbo engine where the stock turbo is oil cooled. Thus, it is more cost effective to have a TT then if it would be for a coolant cooled TO4.
As for gen 3 owners being exclusive[substitute your alternative word], I have found this to have become less of a problem since the RX-8s came on the market. At the last rotary meeting I went to, all RX-7 and old school owners talked together, while the RX-8 owners went into a seperate huddle with their bottles of wine which of course had to be twice as old as their cars. Have you ever noticed the female passenger of an RX-8 has to be half the age of the driver- is that a club requirement?
Nothing wrong with Turbo Timers, exept the fact that they cost money :p But those few minutes you wait for the car to cool down, each time you go driving, add up! How much total time are you wasting? :P Also, it doesnt matter what you're using to cool the turbo, shutting it off instantly will still encourage the hot, higher pressure oil on the bearings to glaze, cook, and coke. QUOTE]
I agree with you, turbo timers are beneficial. I have a Jspec 12A turbo engine where the stock turbo is oil cooled. Thus, it is more cost effective to have a TT then if it would be for a coolant cooled TO4.
As for gen 3 owners being exclusive[substitute your alternative word], I have found this to have become less of a problem since the RX-8s came on the market. At the last rotary meeting I went to, all RX-7 and old school owners talked together, while the RX-8 owners went into a seperate huddle with their bottles of wine which of course had to be twice as old as their cars. Have you ever noticed the female passenger of an RX-8 has to be half the age of the driver- is that a club requirement?