DivinDriver

iTrader: (15)

There's more to kits like this than just component dimensions, gang. Alloy selection, possibly specific hardening or other treatment of some parts... Not looking to be a wet blanket, but be cautious of the things not known. There's more to a mechanical part than just it's size.

I'm not surprised at all by a quote of $3500 to provide manufacturing-ready CAD drawings of a couple dozen parts, with proper tolerances & likely multiple views of some 3D parts. Probably 30 or 40 manhours, or more. (I've run a CAD team as part of my job for 20 years, and used to do mechanical & electronic CAD myself before that.)

Photos and a couple measurements aren't going to cut it, I suspect.

Holdfast

i have the techno toy tuning steering box brace. it works pretty good. I was skeptical at first that it would do anything. Makes the steering feel a bit more solid. But u still have that loose vague steering. I pretty sure most who are following this realize that there is more to this than just some cad drawings & measurements. Everyone is responsible for there own fabricating and judgment. As with any "build thread" on here. But i know we can do better than other RP kits being sold today.

Holdfast

Nothing exotic material wise that i can see. Looks like square tubing notched and box welded.

Respeed kit. Crossmember

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

Is that really the fabled Respeed kit? I've never seen one, so it's nice to have something to compare to the BlackTie kit everyone's been bashing.

j_tso

iTrader: (2)

Here's an old thread that shows a detailed installation of the RE-Speed kit.

Holdfast

[QUOTE=Maxwedge;12327457]Is that really the fabled Respeed kit? I've never seen one, so it's nice to have something to compare to the BlackTie kit everyone's been bashing.
which one would you rather install? I would take the older rusty Respeed kit in the picture above. Its a proven design that we know works really good. I still havent heard from one person that has installed the blacktie kit.

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

I wrote to Blacktie asking some questions last Saturday and haven't gotten a reply. Last night I contacted them on their Ebay store, and mentioned trying to contact their website, and still no reply. Doesn't instill confidence.

The only thing I don't like about the Blacktie (from the pics) is the mounting bolts. Someone earlier in this thread noted that there aren't any front-to-back loads on the R&P, but it's hard to trust it with just the two top bolts. Otherwise it's the same Mustang II rack, same steering linkage arrangement, has a bearing/brace in the same place, and keeps the OE crossmember and motor mounts (which I prefer).

But it's expensive and unproven, and they don't seem to reply to potential customers (me). There are a few race chassis builders near me, so I'm thinking I'll take the car to them with pictures of both the Respeed and Blacktie, and see what they would/could build for me.

chuyler1

iTrader: (1)

I know they had a car at 7stock, not sure if they got it onto the track though. In the end, I kept thinking I wanted to still put my 13"s on in the winter. They were pretty prompt to respond to me when I was asking questions a few months ago, and they are relatively active on social media.

Holdfast

Any progress with scanning the new Respeed kit for cad drawings.

hoang5659

iTrader: (14)

they emailed me back and asked for a picture of the kit. i sent them a link to this thread. i have not heard back yet. i will keep you guys posted when they respond.

hoang5659

iTrader: (14)

*update* the company emailed me back
Company:That is quite a lot of individual components to scan and reverse engineer.Is there anyone in your group who had 3D modeling experience?

Me:I am not quite sure. I can ask. Does this mean you can't do it?

Company:We can definitely do it, but it is likely to be cost-prohibitive if we are to scan, model, and create manufacturing drawings for each those individual components.

There looks to be at least a couple dozen of different parts. If the majority of the components are off-the-shelf and could be sourced, then it would save a lot of time and cost

XLNDRVR

iTrader: (3)

peejay

Wow.

That is some phenomenally shitty steering geometry. Negative Ackerman worse than a fox-body Mustang.

It's great if you like understeer because the inside front tire is dragging, which pushes the outside tire over and above cornering loads. A proper front mount rack would be mounted much further back, in where the motor mounts are.

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

BlackTie Kit -
On 01/26 I wrote to BT on their website contact to ask some questions- I told them I was interested in the R&P, and asked -
*When another batch was scheduled for production?
*Does the front u-joint clear OE motor mounts, since the photos show small diameter aluminum mounts being used?
*With their Tension Rod Spacer, is full articulation possible without any tie rod contact to TR or sway bar (fully up and full droop)?
*Since the mounting brace only has 2 points of attachment, is there enough "meat" on the vertical side flanges that I could drill a 3/8 hole on each side and use some rivet nuts to further attach it to the car's chassis/frame rails?

On 01/30 I contacted them on their ebay store with the same questions. They quickly replied that the website server was having troubles and they hadn't gotten my message, but that the next run would be in 6 weeks (mid-March). They didn't answer the other questions.

On 02-06 they replied from their website email that I should contact them there so they don't get in trouble with ebay. I totally understand this as a fellow ebay seller. i replied with my questions again but still haven't gotten an answer.

I'll keep you posted. I thought chuyler1 had ordered the kit? Any info there?

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

Excellent point peejay, something I hadn't thought to think of. Did the Respeed kit have the rack in the proper (or better at least) location for proper geometry?

peejay

I am unfamiliar with the ReSpeed setup.

I can't imagine that it is much better, unless the kit is rear-steer and moves the engine about 6 inches to the right so there is room for the quill, without having to make the tie rods ends too short for proper bumpsteer. If the bumpsteer is kept in check by putting the "null" in the bumpsteer curve in the range of normal suspension travel, it's probably okay. Certainly better than having an acre and a half of negative Ackerman.

I DO have an FC rack, and it wanders just as much as a stock steering car wanders. There's less play in the steering but play isn't noticable if your alignment and wheel bearings are good. I mainoy did the swap for the FC uprights which are stronger, but now that I know there is a ball joint option to put FC uprights on FB control arms, I have a complete FB setup ready to go inside as soon as I can find a manual steering setup with a broken plastic clip, as I intend to install a steering quickener and would hate to bodge up a good one.

j_tso

iTrader: (2)

There are photos of the RE-Speed kit on the first page of this thread.
Billy tried to correct the Ackerman with special knuckles that were sold with later versions as shown in the link I posted.
It still had issues with the inside wheel dragging in tight turns.

peejay

Ugh, that sucks. Oh well.

For my RX-3, since front end parts are basically not available, my plan is to put a complete Volvo 740 front suspension in it. The crossmember is about the same width and depth of the RX-3 crossmember, and the rack mounts INSIDE the crossmember. And if I measured right, the steering quill will still clear the chassis rail yet point right up to the steering column hole in the firewall. A Miata column should work just fine. The strut towers are close to the same height so the Volvo struts should be fine, and the difference in width should add up to about 1/2 degree of negative camber. Fender flares will be required, but that's okay. (Rear drive Volvos have a lot of SAI, RX-3s have very minimal SAI, which is how this works. RX-3 strut housings on an SA will give a ton of negative camber, but RX-7 wheels rub without spacers)

Better to do a big swap than some compromised half-*** kit, IMO.

The best "kit" I ever installed was from an Australian company, for a Ford. It used a center take off style rack, and a solid bar bolted to it to mimic the stock center link. Kept the stock steering geometry and worked really well.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

I think thats only on full locks turns which are rarely seen on driving. I know someone with this on their car and the turning radius is larger due to this.

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

Oh my goodness, so both of these R&P kits sound like they have negative effects on steering / turn radius and scrub. In theory I am fine with recirculating ball steering -- some of my favorite vehicles have had it. But my steering box seems to have some slop in it*, and I can't find a rebuilt or rebuilding kit anywhere. That is why I personally took interest in this thread and the R&P kits mentioned. But I don't want to increase my turning radius or get extra tire wear due to ackerman scrubbing. Oh my poor little FB.

*I replaced inner and outer tie rods, idler arm and pitman arm. Sloppy center feel is still there. Planning on replacing control arms/ Ball joints and all suspension bushings before Summer.

j_tso

iTrader: (2)

I concur.
Looks like I didn't mention I had installed a kit on my car. Driving is fine, just a little annoying to park. Parallel parking is possible, but when it's easier to do so in an old brick Volvo it's a little dispiriting.

I started looking into center take off racks and other more available options because I get paranoid about bending those custom control arms if something bad happens.
Although if they did bend the attachment part of the frame would probably be wrecked too.

Toruki

Total noob wrt steering components... I like the factory geometry, don't really car about power steering but would love something with less play than the recirculating ball box. Is there such a thing as an electric steering box that would fit in the same area as our factory steering boxes?

I suppose if there were such a thing, you would all know about it already.

Ancillary question, is our characteristic straight line wander due to all of the typical play in our factory systems or is it down to the steering geometry?

JOE68

atkins rebuild the boxes .... but i think my idea would work

Maxwedge

iTrader: (1)

Thanks king, I'll give Atkins a call.

GSLSEforme

A synthetic oil change for steering box,a proper steering box adjustment,ensuring ball joints,tie rods,pitman and idler arms(change to Moog HD unit) have NO play and a good alignment with 1/16" toe in,adjusting strut tops for max negative camber(usually results in .5-.75) and caster. Further caster can be added by adjusting strut rods for a total of 3-4 degrees,i like the higher caster number(iv'e run higher each,car is different) as it improves tracking especially at higher speeds. Have owned/lived with several 1st gens and while no two were exactly the same,doing the above drastically improved tracking and noticeably minimized wander. The SE i currently have can be driven hands off at highway speed on straight road and only 2 fingers needed for slight direction changes on crowned back roads. I have less than.5" freeplay in steering wheel at rest.
The trade off for improved straight line tracking at speed from increased caster is a heavier feeling steering at low speeds that i'm accustomed to and don't notice. I'm fortunate and have the use of my friends' alignment rack to get my specs where i want them. My car is a street car with mods to make it handle and stop better. I'm trying to avoid irreversible mods to car so if i wish i can restore it to original condition. I didn't go to camber plates as i have -.75 and -1.0 camber which is sufficient for street use without excess camber wear on tires.

When you take your car for alignment,don't settle for a "set the toe and let it go" which is all you'll get at a lot of places,cause it's just an old car... pay for a GOOD alignment to have all adjustments maximized. You can save yourself some labor charge by adjusting your strut tops for max camber/caster before taking car in. Do/have steering box adjusted correctly,install a Moog idler arm,even if your oe one is good,they're that much better.
Those that do string toe sets on their cars,thinking that's good enough or have had bad experiences at alignment shops,find another. String alignments(I've done them after a suspension go thru,just to be able to drive to get aligned)leave a lot on the table...