Blew the motor on the dyno getting ready for Summer Slam!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 2,917
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From: West Islip, Long Island NY
Blew the motor on the dyno getting ready for Summer Slam!
Bad News - blew the motor Sat morning on the dyno
Good news - car is back up and running Sat night and will be ready for Summer Slam.
This is the short version, I'll update the rest in a few.
Before it blew it made 603 HP at 30 psi on E85 and methanol with air fuels in the low 10's with NGK 10.5 Race plugs.
Anthony
Good news - car is back up and running Sat night and will be ready for Summer Slam.
This is the short version, I'll update the rest in a few.
Before it blew it made 603 HP at 30 psi on E85 and methanol with air fuels in the low 10's with NGK 10.5 Race plugs.
Anthony
Last edited by ErnieT; Feb 4, 2010 at 02:38 AM. Reason: At request of poster
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 1
From: West Islip, Long Island NY
I had the re-tune the because I added 2 additional 1680cc injectors for the E85. I started off on wastegate spring (17psi on my car) and made 465 with air fuels in the low 10's. I then turned on the meth injection and had to lean it out a lot (over 20%) and it made the same power. I just wanted to compare.
Now I turned up the boost to 30 psi. First pass it made just over 600 with the air fuels in the low 10's. It was a clean pass, intake temps were good, coolant temps were perfect and air fuels were perfect. 2nd pass was also perfect, made the same power. I let it cool down and wanted to run 35psi. On that pass the motor blew going into the power band. Boost did not get past 30 (same issue with this boost controller) and it was on point to making a clean pass, air fuels from the datalog show low 10's again.
I pulled the plugs after the motor blew and one of the plugs in the front rotor broke. It looks like the round piece behind the electrode flew out of there and bent the electrode on its way out. I spoke to crispeed about it and he stated that is not the cause and he thought detonation caused it and he was right.
David (rotory4life) stayed and helped me yank the motor out. Even though the plug broke in the front rotor, I was expecting just the front to be bad but a piece of one apex seal was damaged on the rear rotor. Surprisingly, the turbo was perfect, the housings were perfect and one rotor where the seal broke had some damage but good for 3mm if I cut them. All springs were perfect, side seal clearance was well within spec, quick pass of a feeler guage showed .002-.003 which surprised me. The motor was bone stock, it was weird seeing stock intake ports that small. Quick glance of the bearing etc looked good. One thing I have to add, there was ZERO carbon anywhere!!!!
At that point we cleaned all the parts to get the motor back together for summer slam but Tony had a street ported motor wrapped in plastic and decided to "lend" it to me while I get mine done the right way. I'm curious to see what a ported motor will make in HP since nothing else really is changing. So we swap oil plan etc and drop that motor in. It started up and after fixing my mistake (plugged an injector clip in wrong spot) it idled nicely and I was able to drive home an hour away.
I'll be back on the dyno this week but this time, no more methanol. I don't know why the motor blew. I was running 10.5s and I know others who ran that on C16. There was no blow by, I don't even have a catch can. The only thing I can think is the methanol being injected with E85. Enzo has repeatedly told me I don't need it but not sure if it can cause the motor to blow. My EGTs stopped working again so I don't have EGT data but air fuels on 2 widebands show low 10's and high 9s on air fuels before I was able to lean it out.
Any ideas?
Anthony
---Thanks David (rotory4ife) and my friend Kevin for helping me with everything, could not have gotten her up and running in 1 day without them. Thanks Tony from T and R Racing for the access to the dyno, lift etc and the loaner motor.
Now I turned up the boost to 30 psi. First pass it made just over 600 with the air fuels in the low 10's. It was a clean pass, intake temps were good, coolant temps were perfect and air fuels were perfect. 2nd pass was also perfect, made the same power. I let it cool down and wanted to run 35psi. On that pass the motor blew going into the power band. Boost did not get past 30 (same issue with this boost controller) and it was on point to making a clean pass, air fuels from the datalog show low 10's again.
I pulled the plugs after the motor blew and one of the plugs in the front rotor broke. It looks like the round piece behind the electrode flew out of there and bent the electrode on its way out. I spoke to crispeed about it and he stated that is not the cause and he thought detonation caused it and he was right.
David (rotory4life) stayed and helped me yank the motor out. Even though the plug broke in the front rotor, I was expecting just the front to be bad but a piece of one apex seal was damaged on the rear rotor. Surprisingly, the turbo was perfect, the housings were perfect and one rotor where the seal broke had some damage but good for 3mm if I cut them. All springs were perfect, side seal clearance was well within spec, quick pass of a feeler guage showed .002-.003 which surprised me. The motor was bone stock, it was weird seeing stock intake ports that small. Quick glance of the bearing etc looked good. One thing I have to add, there was ZERO carbon anywhere!!!!
At that point we cleaned all the parts to get the motor back together for summer slam but Tony had a street ported motor wrapped in plastic and decided to "lend" it to me while I get mine done the right way. I'm curious to see what a ported motor will make in HP since nothing else really is changing. So we swap oil plan etc and drop that motor in. It started up and after fixing my mistake (plugged an injector clip in wrong spot) it idled nicely and I was able to drive home an hour away.
I'll be back on the dyno this week but this time, no more methanol. I don't know why the motor blew. I was running 10.5s and I know others who ran that on C16. There was no blow by, I don't even have a catch can. The only thing I can think is the methanol being injected with E85. Enzo has repeatedly told me I don't need it but not sure if it can cause the motor to blow. My EGTs stopped working again so I don't have EGT data but air fuels on 2 widebands show low 10's and high 9s on air fuels before I was able to lean it out.
Any ideas?
Anthony
---Thanks David (rotory4ife) and my friend Kevin for helping me with everything, could not have gotten her up and running in 1 day without them. Thanks Tony from T and R Racing for the access to the dyno, lift etc and the loaner motor.
Rotary Freak
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,568
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From: N.J. USA
anthony a couple of factors could have went wrong. but usually when u see a broken apex seals you need to look into ignition timing. to much ignition timing will cause elevated combustion temperatures and detonation will be present. and not enough timing will cause your egt's to go up and a warpped apex seals is not to far along. don't go crazy looking at your air fuel mixtures being safe. but look more into your timing map. ALSO i reapeat ALSO!!! do not USE anything less then 11.5 ngk heat range for the king of horsepower levels your at.!!! any more question will be answered via pm. see you at the summer slam..
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I had the re-tune the because I added 2 additional 1680cc injectors for the E85. I started off on wastegate spring (17psi on my car) and made 465 with air fuels in the low 10's. I then turned on the meth injection and had to lean it out a lot (over 20%) and it made the same power. I just wanted to compare.
Now I turned up the boost to 30 psi. First pass it made just over 600 with the air fuels in the low 10's. It was a clean pass, intake temps were good, coolant temps were perfect and air fuels were perfect. 2nd pass was also perfect, made the same power. I let it cool down and wanted to run 35psi. On that pass the motor blew going into the power band. Boost did not get past 30 (same issue with this boost controller) and it was on point to making a clean pass, air fuels from the datalog show low 10's again.
I pulled the plugs after the motor blew and one of the plugs in the front rotor broke. It looks like the round piece behind the electrode flew out of there and bent the electrode on its way out. I spoke to crispeed about it and he stated that is not the cause and he thought detonation caused it and he was right.
David (rotory4life) stayed and helped me yank the motor out. Even though the plug broke in the front rotor, I was expecting just the front to be bad but a piece of one apex seal was damaged on the rear rotor. Surprisingly, the turbo was perfect, the housings were perfect and one rotor where the seal broke had some damage but good for 3mm if I cut them. All springs were perfect, side seal clearance was well within spec, quick pass of a feeler guage showed .002-.003 which surprised me. The motor was bone stock, it was weird seeing stock intake ports that small. Quick glance of the bearing etc looked good. One thing I have to add, there was ZERO carbon anywhere!!!!
At that point we cleaned all the parts to get the motor back together for summer slam but Tony had a street ported motor wrapped in plastic and decided to "lend" it to me while I get mine done the right way. I'm curious to see what a ported motor will make in HP since nothing else really is changing. So we swap oil plan etc and drop that motor in. It started up and after fixing my mistake (plugged an injector clip in wrong spot) it idled nicely and I was able to drive home an hour away.
I'll be back on the dyno this week but this time, no more methanol. I don't know why the motor blew. I was running 10.5s and I know others who ran that on C16. There was no blow by, I don't even have a catch can. The only thing I can think is the methanol being injected with E85. Enzo has repeatedly told me I don't need it but not sure if it can cause the motor to blow. My EGTs stopped working again so I don't have EGT data but air fuels on 2 widebands show low 10's and high 9s on air fuels before I was able to lean it out.
Any ideas?
Anthony
---Thanks David (rotory4ife) and my friend Kevin for helping me with everything, could not have gotten her up and running in 1 day without them. Thanks Tony from T and R Racing for the access to the dyno, lift etc and the loaner motor.
Now I turned up the boost to 30 psi. First pass it made just over 600 with the air fuels in the low 10's. It was a clean pass, intake temps were good, coolant temps were perfect and air fuels were perfect. 2nd pass was also perfect, made the same power. I let it cool down and wanted to run 35psi. On that pass the motor blew going into the power band. Boost did not get past 30 (same issue with this boost controller) and it was on point to making a clean pass, air fuels from the datalog show low 10's again.
I pulled the plugs after the motor blew and one of the plugs in the front rotor broke. It looks like the round piece behind the electrode flew out of there and bent the electrode on its way out. I spoke to crispeed about it and he stated that is not the cause and he thought detonation caused it and he was right.
David (rotory4life) stayed and helped me yank the motor out. Even though the plug broke in the front rotor, I was expecting just the front to be bad but a piece of one apex seal was damaged on the rear rotor. Surprisingly, the turbo was perfect, the housings were perfect and one rotor where the seal broke had some damage but good for 3mm if I cut them. All springs were perfect, side seal clearance was well within spec, quick pass of a feeler guage showed .002-.003 which surprised me. The motor was bone stock, it was weird seeing stock intake ports that small. Quick glance of the bearing etc looked good. One thing I have to add, there was ZERO carbon anywhere!!!!
At that point we cleaned all the parts to get the motor back together for summer slam but Tony had a street ported motor wrapped in plastic and decided to "lend" it to me while I get mine done the right way. I'm curious to see what a ported motor will make in HP since nothing else really is changing. So we swap oil plan etc and drop that motor in. It started up and after fixing my mistake (plugged an injector clip in wrong spot) it idled nicely and I was able to drive home an hour away.
I'll be back on the dyno this week but this time, no more methanol. I don't know why the motor blew. I was running 10.5s and I know others who ran that on C16. There was no blow by, I don't even have a catch can. The only thing I can think is the methanol being injected with E85. Enzo has repeatedly told me I don't need it but not sure if it can cause the motor to blow. My EGTs stopped working again so I don't have EGT data but air fuels on 2 widebands show low 10's and high 9s on air fuels before I was able to lean it out.
Any ideas?
Anthony
---Thanks David (rotory4ife) and my friend Kevin for helping me with everything, could not have gotten her up and running in 1 day without them. Thanks Tony from T and R Racing for the access to the dyno, lift etc and the loaner motor.
Damn that sucks, but nice that you are back in bussines!
Peter from RR was somewhat against pulling fuel out when using AI. Have you consider using straight up water instead of meth?
That sucks Anthony but glad you got a motor up and running again. Like Ito said, it sounds like a timing issue. Really, if your afr's were on point and egt's then timing is the only thing left unless the motor was overreved or FOB got into the engine. Oh and plus 1 on the 11.5 racing plugs. 
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 145
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From: Miami Fl
Sorry to heard you blew the motor... Happy to see you got it up and running again. Good luck @ summer slam !!!! Remember you got to represent the "Yellow Rotary Community" cause ur twin brother RX7 is not ready yet (:
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 1
From: West Islip, Long Island NY
That sucks Anthony but glad you got a motor up and running again. Like Ito said, it sounds like a timing issue. Really, if your afr's were on point and egt's then timing is the only thing left unless the motor was overreved or FOB got into the engine. Oh and plus 1 on the 11.5 racing plugs.
I've heard the same on the 10.5 plugs, I ordered another set of 11.5 plugs.
lol, hows the beast?
anthony a couple of factors could have went wrong. but usually when u see a broken apex seals you need to look into ignition timing. to much ignition timing will cause elevated combustion temperatures and detonation will be present. and not enough timing will cause your egt's to go up and a warpped apex seals is not to far along. don't go crazy looking at your air fuel mixtures being safe. but look more into your timing map. ALSO i reapeat ALSO!!! do not USE anything less then 11.5 ngk heat range for the king of horsepower levels your at.!!! any more question will be answered via pm. see you at the summer slam..
On another note, when I make timing changes it makes a huge difference in air fuel ratio's. I never really read any threads about that. I went down 4 degrees and the air fuels change a whole point.
Thanks for the info.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 1
From: West Islip, Long Island NY
Has anyone ever tried the 13.5 heat range NGKs? At least thats what i think they are. They look like a surface gap plug but they are supposed to be the correct length. Just curious if it's wort it or not.
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Joined: Nov 2004
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From: England
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 1
From: West Islip, Long Island NY
Leaner.
Update.....
Was on the dyno again last night, made 607HP on 30psi. Air fuels in the mid 10s. I made quite a few passes to make sure all was ok. My EGTs are still reading low but I hooked them up so I can at least compare front rotor/rear rotor. Rear rotor running very slightly leaner than the front.
After I got off the dyno, I pulled the plugs and Leading 1 was cracked with 2 small pieces missing from ceramic area. These were now 11.5's. I looked closer at Leading 2 and it had very small cracks as well but nothing flew off.
Air fuels were in the 10s. Timing was 12 deg, I was running 14 but the EGTs dropped at 12 so I left it there and it made decent power. The plugs were the same plugs from last year, I ran them a few events. I'm going with new ones.
Anthony
Update.....
Was on the dyno again last night, made 607HP on 30psi. Air fuels in the mid 10s. I made quite a few passes to make sure all was ok. My EGTs are still reading low but I hooked them up so I can at least compare front rotor/rear rotor. Rear rotor running very slightly leaner than the front.
After I got off the dyno, I pulled the plugs and Leading 1 was cracked with 2 small pieces missing from ceramic area. These were now 11.5's. I looked closer at Leading 2 and it had very small cracks as well but nothing flew off.
Air fuels were in the 10s. Timing was 12 deg, I was running 14 but the EGTs dropped at 12 so I left it there and it made decent power. The plugs were the same plugs from last year, I ran them a few events. I'm going with new ones.
Anthony
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 82
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From: Queens, NY
Anthony,
Here is the video of that night at the dyno!!!
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-drag-racing-167/nyce1s-com-anthonynycs-rx-7-gets-ready-summer-slam-848410/
Here is the video of that night at the dyno!!!
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-drag-racing-167/nyce1s-com-anthonynycs-rx-7-gets-ready-summer-slam-848410/
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 1
From: West Islip, Long Island NY
Just got home from the dyno with a newer set of plugs. No more issues. Made 2 passes and left the dyno with 613HP. Air fuels in the high 10s. See you guys at Etown tomorrow.
It's hard to say, there was too much going on at the time, methanol with one vs no meth with the other, air fuels ratio's different.
Thanks Julian, you are the man!!!
Anthony,
Here is the video of that night at the dyno!!!
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=848410
Here is the video of that night at the dyno!!!
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=848410
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 117
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From: UK, London
After I got off the dyno, I pulled the plugs and Leading 1 was cracked with 2 small pieces missing from ceramic area.