Air pump question.
No it's not Turbo'd
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,511
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Personally I wouldn't remove the cat, but replace it with a high flow cat that doesn't need an airpump... it's still much less efficient when cold, but how many of us beat on our cars when they're cold ? Besides the rotary burns enough gas to choke a horse, and you can smell every gallon from inside the car....
As to others getting hybrids justifying you driving a gross poluter... I don't understand since If everybody thought that, there'd be far less hybrids, and Southern Gerogia would be Ocean Front Property... Jeez take some responsibility, what are those extra 10 HP going to get you when the polar caps melt ?? And the summers average 140F and your radiator boils over @ Idle ?
As to others getting hybrids justifying you driving a gross poluter... I don't understand since If everybody thought that, there'd be far less hybrids, and Southern Gerogia would be Ocean Front Property... Jeez take some responsibility, what are those extra 10 HP going to get you when the polar caps melt ?? And the summers average 140F and your radiator boils over @ Idle ?
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
From: Rancho Cucamonga
Originally Posted by DCrosby
Personally I wouldn't remove the cat, but replace it with a high flow cat that doesn't need an airpump... it's still much less efficient when cold, but how many of us beat on our cars when they're cold ? Besides the rotary burns enough gas to choke a horse, and you can smell every gallon from inside the car....
As to others getting hybrids justifying you driving a gross poluter... I don't understand since If everybody thought that, there'd be far less hybrids, and Southern Gerogia would be Ocean Front Property... Jeez take some responsibility, what are those extra 10 HP going to get you when the polar caps melt ?? And the summers average 140F and your radiator boils over @ Idle ?
As to others getting hybrids justifying you driving a gross poluter... I don't understand since If everybody thought that, there'd be far less hybrids, and Southern Gerogia would be Ocean Front Property... Jeez take some responsibility, what are those extra 10 HP going to get you when the polar caps melt ?? And the summers average 140F and your radiator boils over @ Idle ?
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 25,896
Likes: 24
From: Rohnert Park CA
Originally Posted by GoRacer
You dont make any sense. you havent read anything I wrote and you say I didnt read yours, wtf? air pump doesnt inject fuel? what the heck...did you make that up I didnt write it.
It extremely simple. Removing air pump will NOT ruin cat period, end of story nothing else matters. That was the question and that is the answer.
here is your quote below?
The air pump does not inject extra fuel... again, you are mis-understanding what it does... first you claim it cloggs from too much fuel, then now you are saying it injects too much fuel??? I don't think you even understand where the air that the "air pump" (not the fuel pump) is injected.
wtf is that? Who said that? not me. DOn't invent stuff or change what I said. You are making stuff up now.
It extremely simple. Removing air pump will NOT ruin cat period, end of story nothing else matters. That was the question and that is the answer.
here is your quote below?
The air pump does not inject extra fuel... again, you are mis-understanding what it does... first you claim it cloggs from too much fuel, then now you are saying it injects too much fuel??? I don't think you even understand where the air that the "air pump" (not the fuel pump) is injected.
wtf is that? Who said that? not me. DOn't invent stuff or change what I said. You are making stuff up now.
Removing air pump will prolong cat life as it will prevent it from overheating from excessive fuel.
Is that simpler for you to understand???
I know you can read the quotes... I think you just had some mis-conceived ideas of how it works when you say things like:
Most 7's will have about 100k mi or more, so cat's are due for replacement with or without an air pump.
In the air space in between the two air is injected which raises temperature (just like blowing on a fire going out) which then heats up and allows anything unburned in the first to be burned in the second.
Try again.
You obviously did NOT read any of the links that CLEARLy explained in detail how the cat works and as I stated I quoted from. Got to www.dictionary.com and look up "quote".
Removing air pump does not shorten life of catalytic converter A/F is controled by the ECU. You do not make the exhaust richer by removing the air pump, that's impossible. Magic invisible fuel injectors? The 2nd 1/2 will not get hot enough without the extra air injection to overheat and destroy it.
That shows me how twisted and mis-understood you have taken this. You are 180 degrees out of tune with what really happens on this.
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 25,896
Likes: 24
From: Rohnert Park CA
This is what happens without an air pump (granted it may take 6 months or a year depending on engine condition- but it will happen on a rotary engine):
Converter Meltdown.
This is an example of a converter meltdown. The converter was super-heated due to a raw fuel condition in the exhaust flow. The excess unburned fuel ignited when it struck the hot ceramic catalyst and drove the temperature far above the normal operating condition of the converter. The ceramic catalyst is unable to withstand the extremely high temperature and begins to melt. The ceramic collapses and the converter is destroyed. The melted ceramic may block the exhaust flow and cause additional damage to the engine. A converter glowing red-hot, or evidence of heat discoloration, confirms this situation.
The condition that led to this converter meltdown could be the result of a number of malfunctions including faulty oxygen sensor, an incorrect fuel mixture, worn spark plugs or plug wires, disconnected or faulty air injection, a faulty check valve, incorrect ignition timing, sticking float, faulty fuel injectors or other ignition malfunctions.
Maybe this will help:
Converter types:
Pre-Converter and Main Converter
Each of the three types of converters mentioned at left have a common need in order to function properly. Each needs to reach a minimum operating temperature before any emission reduction or oxidation takes place. This warm-up period immediately after a vehicle is started is when the catalytic converter is least efficient and the vehicle expels the most pollutants. Some vehicles employ a pre-converter in the exhaust system immediately after the manifold to help during this warm-up period. The pre-converter’s small size and proximity to the engine allow it to heat up and start functioning in less time than the main converter. It also pre-heats the exhaust gasses and helps the main converter reach operating temperature sooner. mark's note: it has nothing to do with mixture that is heating the pre-cat... it is simply the proximity to the engine and the heat of the exhaust coming out of the motor... not the rich or leaness of the mixture
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two-Way Oxidation Converter
Two-Way converter, used on cars between 1975-1980, oxidizes unburned harmful hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide along with secondary oxygen into water and carbon dioxide.
HC, CO, O2 OXIDIZE TO H20 and CO2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three-Way Reduction/Oxidation
A Three-Way converter is a triple purpose converter. It reduces nitrous oxides into nitrogen and, like the two-way converter, it oxidizes unburned harmful hydrocarbons and turns carbon monoxide into water and carbon dioxide.
NOx REDUCES TO N2
HC, CO OXIDIZES TO H20 and CO2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three-Way+Air
Reduction/Oxidation Converter
A Three-Way+Air converter performs the same function as the Three-Way converter: It oxidizes and reduces. The difference is the addition of secondary air between the two internal catalyst substrates that improves the oxidation capabilities of the converter as well as cools the catalyst substrate helping maintain operating temperature when an overly rich mixture is detected. The secondary air is pumped into the middle of the converter between the two separate catalyst substrates. The front performs the reduction and the back ceramic performs the oxidation. It's like having two converters in one.
NOx REDUCES TO N2
HC, CO, O2 OXIDIZES TO H20 and CO2
Converter Meltdown.
This is an example of a converter meltdown. The converter was super-heated due to a raw fuel condition in the exhaust flow. The excess unburned fuel ignited when it struck the hot ceramic catalyst and drove the temperature far above the normal operating condition of the converter. The ceramic catalyst is unable to withstand the extremely high temperature and begins to melt. The ceramic collapses and the converter is destroyed. The melted ceramic may block the exhaust flow and cause additional damage to the engine. A converter glowing red-hot, or evidence of heat discoloration, confirms this situation.
The condition that led to this converter meltdown could be the result of a number of malfunctions including faulty oxygen sensor, an incorrect fuel mixture, worn spark plugs or plug wires, disconnected or faulty air injection, a faulty check valve, incorrect ignition timing, sticking float, faulty fuel injectors or other ignition malfunctions.
Maybe this will help:
Converter types:
Pre-Converter and Main Converter
Each of the three types of converters mentioned at left have a common need in order to function properly. Each needs to reach a minimum operating temperature before any emission reduction or oxidation takes place. This warm-up period immediately after a vehicle is started is when the catalytic converter is least efficient and the vehicle expels the most pollutants. Some vehicles employ a pre-converter in the exhaust system immediately after the manifold to help during this warm-up period. The pre-converter’s small size and proximity to the engine allow it to heat up and start functioning in less time than the main converter. It also pre-heats the exhaust gasses and helps the main converter reach operating temperature sooner. mark's note: it has nothing to do with mixture that is heating the pre-cat... it is simply the proximity to the engine and the heat of the exhaust coming out of the motor... not the rich or leaness of the mixture
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two-Way Oxidation Converter
Two-Way converter, used on cars between 1975-1980, oxidizes unburned harmful hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide along with secondary oxygen into water and carbon dioxide.
HC, CO, O2 OXIDIZE TO H20 and CO2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three-Way Reduction/Oxidation
A Three-Way converter is a triple purpose converter. It reduces nitrous oxides into nitrogen and, like the two-way converter, it oxidizes unburned harmful hydrocarbons and turns carbon monoxide into water and carbon dioxide.
NOx REDUCES TO N2
HC, CO OXIDIZES TO H20 and CO2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three-Way+Air
Reduction/Oxidation Converter
A Three-Way+Air converter performs the same function as the Three-Way converter: It oxidizes and reduces. The difference is the addition of secondary air between the two internal catalyst substrates that improves the oxidation capabilities of the converter as well as cools the catalyst substrate helping maintain operating temperature when an overly rich mixture is detected. The secondary air is pumped into the middle of the converter between the two separate catalyst substrates. The front performs the reduction and the back ceramic performs the oxidation. It's like having two converters in one.
NOx REDUCES TO N2
HC, CO, O2 OXIDIZES TO H20 and CO2
Last edited by Icemark; Dec 14, 2006 at 04:15 PM.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 2
From: My 350Z Roadster kicks my RX7's butt
Nope, your wrong. Air pump only adds air to reduce NOx. that's it.
There is "NO" proof remove the air pump will decrease the cat's life. Did you show proof, no! Did I post links from where I quoted? Yes.
End of story, question answered. Answer = No
There is "NO" proof remove the air pump will decrease the cat's life. Did you show proof, no! Did I post links from where I quoted? Yes.
End of story, question answered. Answer = No
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 25,896
Likes: 24
From: Rohnert Park CA
Originally Posted by GoRacer
Nope, your wrong. Air pump only adds air to reduce NOx. that's it.
There is "NO" proof remove the air pump will decrease the cat's life. Did you show proof, no! Did I post links from where I quoted? Yes.
End of story, question answered. Answer = No
There is "NO" proof remove the air pump will decrease the cat's life. Did you show proof, no! Did I post links from where I quoted? Yes.
End of story, question answered. Answer = No
again you don't understand what it does... the air pump adds air to help oxidize up the HC and CO...This is so simple. I don't know why with all your links and quotes, you just don't get it.
One more time You have a Reduction Catalyst followed by the oxidation catalyst in the standard monolithic (three way) cat:
Originally Posted by about.com: auto repair
The Reduction Catalyst:
The reduction catalyst is the first stage of the catalytic converter. It uses platinum and rhodium to help reduce the NOx emissions. When an NO or NO2 molecule contacts the catalyst, the catalyst rips the nitrogen atom out of the molecule and holds on to it, freeing the oxygen in the form of O2. The nitrogen atoms bond with other nitrogen atoms that are also stuck to the catalyst, forming N2.
Oxidation Catalysts:
Palladium (Pd) and platinum (Pt) metals in very small amounts convert the hydrocarbons of unburned gasoline and carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and water. This catalyst aids the reaction of the CO and hydrocarbons with the remaining oxygen in the exhaust gas. But where did this oxygen come from?
The Control System:
The third stage is a control system that monitors the exhaust stream, and uses this information to regulate the air/fuel mixture. There is an oxygen sensor mounted in front of the catalytic converter, meaning it is between the engine and the converter. The O2 sensor tells the engine ECU how much oxygen is in the exhaust.
The ECU can increase or decrease the amount of oxygen in the exhaust by adjusting the air/fuel mixture. In this way the ECU can make sure that the engine is running as close to the stoichiometric point, and also ensure there is enough oxygen in the exhaust to allow the oxidization catalyst to burn the unburned hydrocarbons and CO.
The reduction catalyst is the first stage of the catalytic converter. It uses platinum and rhodium to help reduce the NOx emissions. When an NO or NO2 molecule contacts the catalyst, the catalyst rips the nitrogen atom out of the molecule and holds on to it, freeing the oxygen in the form of O2. The nitrogen atoms bond with other nitrogen atoms that are also stuck to the catalyst, forming N2.
Oxidation Catalysts:
Palladium (Pd) and platinum (Pt) metals in very small amounts convert the hydrocarbons of unburned gasoline and carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and water. This catalyst aids the reaction of the CO and hydrocarbons with the remaining oxygen in the exhaust gas. But where did this oxygen come from?
The Control System:
The third stage is a control system that monitors the exhaust stream, and uses this information to regulate the air/fuel mixture. There is an oxygen sensor mounted in front of the catalytic converter, meaning it is between the engine and the converter. The O2 sensor tells the engine ECU how much oxygen is in the exhaust.
The ECU can increase or decrease the amount of oxygen in the exhaust by adjusting the air/fuel mixture. In this way the ECU can make sure that the engine is running as close to the stoichiometric point, and also ensure there is enough oxygen in the exhaust to allow the oxidization catalyst to burn the unburned hydrocarbons and CO.
Here maybe this emissions test failure matrix will help you as well:
Because the catalytic converter should last the lifetime of the vehicle it is installed in. if it does fail, it is most often a symptom of another problem. This problem must be identified and repaired or the new converter will fail in the same manner.
Of course you also said:
Originally Posted by GoRacer
3-way cats are no longer used.
So you can see with so much mis-information from you, its would be hard to believe what you suggest. But then you advocate the removal of the air pump and have burnt through (by your own admissions in this thread) multiple converters.
Last edited by Icemark; Dec 14, 2006 at 10:56 PM.
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