TOUGHGUY

posted by Aviator 902S
Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you talk out your ***. According to,
http://www.monito.com/wankel/production.html
by January of 1999, there were 1,790,793 total Mazda Rotary Vehicles produced. Oh you're special alright!

posted by Aviator 902S
Your true heritage shines thru here. An eye for an eye, despite the fact that nobody who puts a V8 in an RX7 did it to "****" anybody off. Pretty childish for someone who claims to be in his forties. Looks like someone never grew up. FYI, I'm anything but a purist. I like rotaries, just not in cars. In fact I embrace all forms of internal combustion engines but I really enjoy the ones that go vroom vroom instead of fart fart!

Well that sure took alot of thought now didn't it? Repeating unoriginal bastard! Get your own snappy comebacks! LOL. Oh and BTW, in case you didn't understand my last missive, I don't drive an F-body or a Mustang either. Actualy I was driving the Orange RX7 in my sig until the POS boat anchor under the hood let go. Now it's sitting in the driveway looking all show but without any go. (not that it ever did) A reputable shop in the Toronto area wants $2500 for a stock rebuilt 12A after the core exchange. I think that is a VERY good price but for half the price I am installing a 302 HO. Twice the power and three times the torque for half the price! Glad I'm on a budget. If you want you can come to Ontario with a trailer and I will GIVE you the 12A for your plane. (I do believe it makes a great aircraft engine)

I bet you read that on the internet somewhere. For heavens sake it must be true! Who's the redneck? Do you really have anything worthwhile to say?

Toughguy

Aviator 902S

(even bigger grin) You voted Liberal, didn't you?

TOUGHGUY

What? You can see I'm writting from "da lefside av da mout" eh?

Toughguy

P.S.- Seriously though, you want that 12A? We can ship it by AIR! Hehe. LOL. Sorry, Liberal humour eh! Take care Aviator.

Aviator 902S

No offense taken or apologies necessary. Just a heated but friendly disagreement on engine preferrences. Of course I'd never actually install a 20B into a '68 Mustang thereby de-valuing it. Sure I'd get to see the priceless horrified looks on the v8 guys' faces, but they'd have the last laugh when they realize I'd just pissed away half the cars' value + the cost of the conversion. I'd therefore chose a car that has no classic value for this conversion instead.
As for the millions of FB's produced, while most have rusted into junkyard heaps, many are still on the road so it will be a while before even those over 20 yrs old begin to seriously escalate in value. But large #'s of v8 conversions would only help the values of originals go up as the originals in pristine condition become fewer and fewer.
In many ways the v8 is a better engine than the rotary, especially in cars. Low-end torque is a definite plus in this environment.
Rotaries are also a great engine for a car if you're not too concerned with the lack of torque at low revs (in all but the fd's), but where they really shine is on the oval track, in racing boats, and in aircraft. My plane will definitely be powered by a 13B.
Take care, toughguy.

TOUGHGUY

Being a rotary airplane nut you are probably familiar with the name Paul Lamar but just in case you aren't, check out this link.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/ACRE.html

These guys know their stuff. They talk about the reliability of dyno mules pushing insane horsepower levels for ungodly number of hours and I think the rotary is completely in its element in an aircraft or maybe a boat. The stresses on any engine are much different and much more severe in a motor vehicle though. It is one thing to cruise for hours at high RPM where the motor's temperature and overall status hardly changes but stop and go traffic and intermittent high RPM use followed by cool down periods in my opinion are the major factors that contribute to lower than average durability for a rotary engine in a car. Also, in a car, a catastrophic engine failure (something rare with a rotary) is not life threatening so maintainance is usualy a little more lax. It's interesting to see what would have happened if the rotary had been developped by other manufacturers during the past 30 years or so. Seven years ago, the FD was making 255 hp with twin turbos, a high fuel consumption (relatively speaking) and less than stellar reliability. The newly released RX8 makes the same amount of power normaly aspirated, adheres to current emmissions standards and promises to be much more reliable than its predecessor. (only time will truly tell) Still though, like the two-stroke reciprocating engine, it has limited appeal in a motor vehicle application for the masses.

Toughguy

Aviator 902S

Yeah, I've been on Paul Lamar's newsletter for almost 2 yrs now, and have followed aircraft rotary engine development for over seven years. They are the absolute best alternative to certified Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines, bar none. The combination of power, durability, few mods, and light weight is unparalleled in this particular environment.
Gm was developing the rotary in the early 70's to use in the Corvette, and the 4-rotor version was a formidable alternative to the v8's used in the day. Fuel consumption was not much worse, but the timing couldn't have been worse because these were the days of the oil embargos and trying to make cars more fuel-efficient.
Emissions requirements were also becoming more stringent and the rotary was therefore becoming more hassle than GM considered worthwhile, and their 2-rotor didn't have enough low-end torque to meet the expectations of their consumer demographic so their rotary project was dropped.
It's too bad Gm didn't have the technology available today back then, because this would have been a unique and exotic powerplant. With four rotors, torque in the low revs would not have been a problem.
Emissions requirements were also becoming more stringent and the rotary was therefore becoming more hassle than gm considered worthwhile so it was dropped.
There are some v6 and v8 conversions being used in experimental aircraft with varying degrees of success, but the problems they're having include too much weight in the nose and the requirement to heavily modify these engines to guard against con-rod failures at constant higher-than-normal rpms. I know of at least a couple of Subaru engines that had been modified to produce more power than the stock rods could handle.

TOUGHGUY

I regret our initial encounter was so negative, seems we actually agree on more things than we disagree on. This V8 RX7 debate is surely a thorn that makes extremists of certain people who would otherwise could be good friends were it not for the fact that it puts them on either side of a very tall fence.

I've defended the rotary on many occasions and I too once believed that I would build a killer rotary that could hold its own at cruise night. Unfortunately, that endeavour is beyond my means at this point in my life. Things like the purchase of our first house last August and the birth of our second son only 17 days ago are things that ultimately factor in to the equation. Ah to be 20 again living at home with no debt or rent to pay! I have grossed well over $500 000 in the 14 years since I was 20 and still I can't spare a mere $5000 for that killer rotary! LOL.

The idea of a Ford 302 in my 1st gen is a sound idea considering it will only increase the overall weight of the car by about 150lbs. If I was going to race this car on a road track I could even relocate the battery to the rear and such to bring it back close to stock but to what real extent? The Porsche 911 family has about the worst front/rear weight ratio of any car on the road and yet just yesterday I watched Mike Fitzgerald spank a field of Audis, Corvettes and BMWs at Road Atlanta in his 911 Cup so 50/50 weight distribution is not what makes a great car. I'll put some coil overs on the car and play with spring rates and ride height and maybe make a few sway bar adjustments and even with the "heavy" V8 I'm sure the car's street manners will be an improvement over stock.

The real kick in the pants is the fact that I will enjoy better overall performance and mileage than not only the stock rotary, but better than the donor car itself! Here's the donor car:



It's an '88 Lincoln Mark 7 LSC. It has the 5.0 H.O. (same as Mustang) that puts out 190 HP to the wheels (according to my G-Tech Pro, factory rated at 225 HP at the crank) covers the 1/4 in 16.8 seconds (again according to my G-Tech) and gets an easy 20 mpg. Oh yeah, and it also weighs 4300 lbs with me in it (according to the local disposal site scale) and a full tank of gas. On the same scale, my RX7 with a full tank and me in it tips at about 2550 lbs. (I have a decent sound system that adds a little weight) Just cutting away bodywork on the Mark 7 down to 2700 lbs (what I expect my RX7 to weight after engine swap) will put me in the very low 14s at the dragstrip. We must also take into consideration that the Lincoln probably came with 3.55 gears in the axle and that my Mazda's axle 3.90 gears with LSD are probably worth a few tenths and voila, a 13 second 1st gen RX7 that will probably get 20-25 mpg thanks to the AOD tranny. The motor is only a cam and heads away from 300hp at the wheels (less than $1000) and that along with some drag radials will be close to getting me into the 11s! With a well sorted suspension I would not be intimidated to run this car in some autocross or on the track and (driver skill permiting) would probably hold its own against much newer and more powerful machinery. Think about this for a minute, I will have spent in the neihborhood of $4000 (including the initial purchase of the car) and I will have something that will accelerate, stop and turn with the aplomb of a new Corvette or Viper. Modern Hot Rodding doesn't get any better!

The preceeding was just a brief description of MY plans for MY car and what I expect out of it when I'm done. Others are just out for that straight line push you into the seat feeling while others are just wanting to keep driving a wonderful little sports car on a tight budget. To each his or her own I say and I respect those that choose to keep the rotary alive and well in their cars. But for me, summer isn't all that long up here in Northern Ontario and I wanna have some fun with this thing!





Toughguy

Aviator 902S

Nice wheels toughguy. You seem to be as much into drag-racing performance as I'm into aircraft. Of course, therein lies the difference. While I like the 1st gen 7 (having owned four of them), I'm more into the powerplant than the actual car. Being older and not as limber as I used to be, getting down into and up out of a low-slung sportscar is not as much fun as it used to be. The rx8 would be more my speed even if it were only 180 hp instead of 250. Us rotorheads are simply addicted to the rotary's sound, smoothness and the over-all feel that's unlike any piston engine. The handling, looks, and affordability of the FB is an added bonus.

TOUGHGUY

For now the stock GSL rear end will sufice. It can handle the power of the stock 302 and it already has disc brakes and an LSD. The gears are 3.90 and that will give me decent acceleration but will somewhat limit my top speed. Because of this, my tranny choice is the AOD (automatic with Overdrive) that came with the Lincoln. The motor and tranny will be swapped as one unit. With the 215/50R13 BFG Radial TAs I have on it, the overall gearing will put the engine RPM at approximately 2450@100km/h in overdrive. For comparison, the Lincoln is only turning about 1900 RPM at the same speed thanks to its higher axle gearing (lower numericaly) and 225/60R16 tires. Nevertheless, 2500 RPM is something I can live with. It is interesting that my BFGs are only rated to 130 mph and that the final gearing will put the car's top speed at just a tad over 150 mph! 6000 RPM would be 147 mph and rev limiter cuts in at 6250 RPM. Yes it is insane! I would never go that fast on anything but a racetrack. Later on, I can replace the rear end with a complete Ford 8.8 inch axle from a Mustang with gears as low as 2.73:1 and an LSD. The Lincoln has this axle but it is a few inches too wide for my application. What's more insane is that by my calcs, 2.73 gearing works out to be 175 mph at only 5000 RPM. The stock 302 H.O. has its peak power at around 5000 RPM and by my calculations, this car could theoreticaly do 181 mph with the stock output of 190 rear wheel horsepower. What this all means is that it is entirely conceivable that with a simple gearing change, the car will achieve 175-180 mph. Of course this would be insanity anywhere but at Bonneville or the Silver State Classic.
http://www.silverstateclassic.com/
Chances are I will retain the stock rear axle as long as it holds out. If it cannot, then I will replace it with a Ford 8.8 but with gears in the 3.55 range.

Toughguy

TOUGHGUY

I know what you mean about the smoothness. Reving the rotary to 7-8K RPM feels just as silky smooth as if it were idling. (when mine ran that is ) And the handling of my '82 GSL rivals that of my '91 Acura Integra! Through the twisties it is very flat and sticks like glue with my wide tires.

As far as getting older and having a hard time getting in and out of these cars, I have a little story about my car and the previous owner.

I was just passing through a small town (pop. 6000) when I spotted this RX7 in a used car lot. It had the original off-white/cream color paint and the dealer was asking $1500 Certified for it. I took it for a ride and bought it on the spot. I figured for $1500, I could drive it until it died and just sign the ownership and leave it on the side of the road. So I gave the dealer a down payment and took a trip to California for two weeks. When I returned to claim the car, the dealer said he had at least ten other people interested in the car and some of them even offered up to $3000 for it! Lucky I put the down on it. If that wasn't enough, the car's previous owner had a parts car that came free with it so we went over to his house to take a look at it. The dealer introduces me to him, a 77 year old man in pretty good shape. During conversation he explains that he had to get rid of it because he was STARTING to have trouble getting in and out of it and that he got a STREETBIKE in the trade! I shook my head but deep down I was thinking, "I hope I can be like that when I'm 77!"

My wife is 5'8" and says it's too small for her. I'm 6'2" and it fits me like a glove!


One thing I must admit though. I'm glad it's an automatic because I can't lift my right leg to push on the brakes. I use right foot gas, left foot brakes!

Toughguy

P.S.- I bought it three years ago. Now, I wouldn't get rid of it for anything.

cdk 4219

Unfortunately you wont be hitting the 150 plus mark in your AOD equipped rx, because of the fact that the AOD in stock form wont allow a shift into fourth gear at anything much more than 1/2 to 3/4th throttle. The stock lincoln LSC should have a 3.27 8.8 traction lock from the factory, if that helps. 300 RWHP from the EFI 5.0 will take a bit more than $1000 because you will need headers, intake, injectors, mass air flow conversion (all LSC's were speed density, which will throw a monkey wrench in the idle), as well as some roller rockers and pushrods, which as you can see will push the total up a bit. The next problem you will encounter is with the combo of the AOD trans, camshaft ,and light car with a stock converter designed for a 2 ton machine. The stall speed will drastically reduce with all of these items, thus affecting the driveability of the car. One of the major design flaws is that the AOD trans cant be reliably held in second gear, and is designed to shift at a certain RPM level (4600rpm or so) and if a cam is installed to make more power above that level, you will have problems with the trans totally skipping second gear. Holding second gear by going from first to drive and then quickly back to first will hold second gear, but is extremely detrimental to the life of the trans. The 5.0 is a great engine, but extracting 300RWHP from it (especially with a power robbing AOD) will be rather expensive as you can see. In stock form with 1.7 rockers (which extend the useable range of the stock cam) and an exhaust port you will have a good running stock engine that will be reliable and fun with an AOD. Ditch the AOD and get a T5 from a V8 preferrably (even though a 4cyl will handle some good abuse and cost much less) and then the world is good.

Burnz

I agree, 300 RWHP from the 5.0 will take a bit more (Note cdk4219, the engine does NOT have EFI... the H.O. 302 was carburated... I believe it had a 600 cfm Holley carb).

However, probaly not as much as you'd think. I'm not really familiar with the Ford small blocks (I'm an SBC guy ), so don't know what kinda money you'd have to come up with for nice heads, but for the SBC, you can have heads good for 425 HP at the crank for no more than $700 US. AND considering the fact that the H.O. has a Hydraulic Roller cam, if you get a nice fat camshaft you'll be laughing (however, don't go too big unless you plan on raising the compression... or else it'll do more harm than good).

Also, here's a tip... the H.O. 302 was EXTREMELY choked... when I say choked, I mean can't breath.

See, it makes about 225 HP from the factory but closer to 280 Ft.lbs. of torque... it has a dual plane intake manifold, and it's SEVERELY restricting the HP potential... same with the factory Headers... you'd think that because they're headers they would increase the power substantially, but believe it or not, good aftermarket headers do WONDERS to the 302 H.O.

Awesome single plane intake manifold - $180

I'd look for one at a swap meet.. I found my intake manifold for $150 Canadian, and it's awesome.

Comp Cams Camshaft & lifters... - $320

Headers... that could be a problem considering you have to fit them in an RX7, but for the SBC, hedmann makes a header that fits the 2nd gen. like a glove, and they cost $110 I believe...

Anyway, with just those mods (~$650), I'd say you'd EASILY be 300 HP / 300 Ft.lbs. at the crank... not even touching the heads.

TOUGHGUY

Transgo shift kit and a well matched converter will solve tranny issues.

The H.O. version of Ford's small-block came out in '83. It was actually dubbed H.O. in '82 but it utilised a 2bbl carb with a 396 CFM rating and was anything but High Output. From '83 to '85, the H.O. was called a 302 and used a Holley 600 CFM 4160 based carb. The roller camshaft was introduced in '85 as were forged pistons and redesigned heads. In '86 Ford renamed the 302 to 5.0 and introduced their speed density fuel injection that lasted until '88. In '89 the H.O. came with a mass air EFI system until Ford stopped using the 5.0 in Mustangs in '95.

Stock SBF are choked and it's not that hard to open them up. Unfortunately as of this writting, I gave my Lincoln away to my uncle who has just about completed the needed repairs and will be putting it on the road shortly. No HO for me right now so I will put a regular EFI 5.0 into the 7 until I can locate another one. Preferably a post '89 Mustang that already has the mass air EFI system.

Toughguy

cdk 4219

Yea I agree 250ish at the wheels, but toughguy was talking about 300 at the wheels, which is a little bit more money. I have done a few 302s in the past year or so, and the most I have made to the wheels is 292, with edelbrock heads and cam and all the other goodies, at about $4000. These engines are great and very durable, it seems for me the 300 plus club would be visited much faster and less costly with FI and or nitrous.

'85 GSL 302

My Ford 302 1st gen handles great on stock suspension. Good enough to autoX with 185 tires and plenty of power. With suspension mods it should be near perfect. I personally think that if any rotorite drove my car they'd see the light. So far I've already turned 2 die hard rotory fans. Once couldn't bare to cut up his nice GSL-SE, so he went and bought a second one.

TOUGHGUY

CDK it all depends where you start from. If you sourced out new go-fast stuff for a SBF to make 300 at the wheels (especialy through an auto) you would be hard pressed to do it for $1000. However, not everyone buys (or can afford to buy) new. I found a Holley 4160 for $100 CDN and it cost me $20 for a rebuild. Head porting can be had for about $300 CDN for both heads and a decent cam is around $200. I still have enough to buy a brand new intake (Edelbrock Victor Jr. would be my choice) and have some cash leftover for the tranny shift kit $150 CDN and possibly a new torque converter. A set of stock HO tubular exhaust manifolds can do 300 hp but lack of flow at high RPM would be counter productive with a Victor Jr. intake and ported heads. Still though, not being too picky it is possible. The problem therein is that nobody stops at that. A set of AFR heads will cost double all the stuff I just mentioned but they will look so cool under the hood with a set of cast COBRA valve covers! A Holley 4160, come on, get with the times! Surely I will need a Speed Demon 750 at this point and might as well go for a complete MSD ignition package because the stock Ford ignition is weak past 4500 RPM.

Anyways, I'm sure you get my drift. If I'm careful on what I spend my money on, I think it is possible to get 300 rwhp from a 5.0 for $1000.

Toughguy

Demon RX-7

Listen I have 1989 RX-7 with a 302 short block with about 507hp and it kicks the CRAP out of any import around my area. But if someone put a 20B motor in a muscle car they would have to just be retarded. Aviator 902S for even suggesting to put a 20B motor in a muscle car makes you the biggest retard around. Maybe you should stay away from cars all together.

Rotary Motors = no ***** , no *****
Well if you just want to waste a lot of money for no reason then yeah do up your rotary motor and just shut up!!!

mcnemar1982

I think it is good. I have a 87 rx7 with a Lt1 in it. I love my car because it is fun to drive. I will build a third gen next.

Becapa

I personally would never do it, but what other people do with their money is their own business. But I think that throwing a V-8 in would totally screw up the balance of the car. Definitely not worth it to me. Besides, having a rotary engine brings about a certain sense of elitism.

Aviator 902S

Heh heh heh... you sound extremely sexually frustrated. I'll bet you've never had a girlfriend who didn't have a ****...

TOUGHGUY

Elitism? How many V8 RX7s have you been in?

Welcome to the board Becapa.

I am not ******* rotaries. In fact I just came into posession of a decent '84 GSL-SE and I plan on keeping it rotary. I'm just one of those guys who like to do things because I can. My plan for the SE is a turbo swap and as much fun as that will be, I still like the idea of a big displacement engine under the hood of my Orange Crush. Hell I would like to use a Toyota/Lexus V8 or maybe an M60 V8 from a BMW but that could get expensive. We live in North America where big V8s are cheap and plentiful. I'll start with that and maybe when my wife gets tired of her 740i, I'll have a more interesting engine to play with.

Now how's this for an idea? I can across this car in our local car trader and I've always been fond of BMW 2002s when they are done up in this fashion.


Now imagine an LS1 under the hood? That could be one serious autocross machine!

But I gotta finish my V8 swap into my GSL and then figure out the T II swap into the SE oh but wait, my solid axle swap Toyota 4 Runner needs to go to the front of the list of to-do's since I just got rid of my Integra and now need a reliable winter vehicle other than my Subaru because my wife won't let me drive her BMW! There just aren't enough hours in a day!

Toughguy

Becapa

I understand what you are saying, and it sounds like a V8 RX7 would be a lot of fun to drive in actually. But I just don't think I'd ever be able to do something like that. I put a 350 in my Cutlass and that was cool and all, but I just don't think I could bring myself to put one in an RX7. I'm not sure what it is about it, but it seems like it wouldn't even be the same car, if you know what I mean. I'm not trying to diss it or anything. It actually sounds pretty interesting. I just don't think I'd ever be able to do it. I plan on doing a T II swap into my car as well. If I had like a 240SX or something, then I think that it might be cool to throw a V8 in. I just like the rotary too much I guess.

dole2000

Putting a V-8 in and RX-7 is cool by me, it's your car. But, don't go knocking the rotary on the reliablity issue.
I have had several. As long as you leave them stock and don't **** with them they will last 200K. The V-8 is not anymore reliable than that. Start doing heavy mods to a V-8 and they blow the first time down the track.I always like the in-line six they used to put in the Z cars.

cdk 4219

Maybe an N/A rotary, but not a turbo unit. Not even if your grandmother drove it. A well cared for NA engine will last for a good long time, but it isnt the most powerful engine either. A long lasting rotary is the exception, not the rule.

1point3liter

My V8 has made plenty of passes without breaking anything. I put a v8 in my car because at the power level's I want, rotaries aren't reliable. I am making almost 500rwhp and 600ft/lbs of torque with my more or less stock v8 and nitrous.