RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

Happy belated b-day Mr. E Exams all done?

Oops, back to the topic at hand:

"Weight and displacement longitudinally of a V8 in an FC"

No comment, see my previous reply lol

Trav

Yah, the best part about that was that was before the oil crisis. So MPG was not a concern back then. Who cares if you only got 6 MPG, gas was less than 50 cents per gallon for some time! Obviously now that is more of a concern...

Trav

I think that is the point that a lot of us are trying to make. If you're cool with what you have, then great! Some people (including myself) just have to have a little bit (okay a lot) more than what they have now.

Eventually it all comes down to what are you willing to do, how far are you willing to go, how bad do you want to stay pure, etc. etc.

I would love it if someone could 4 corner weigh their car before and after the V8 (or 20b) swap just to see. I really don't know what the results would be but would be interesting to know. Wouldn't answer the CG question though. I'm not going either of those routes, so it won't affect my decision anyway...

Trav

Go check out some Nascar, NHRA, Indy, Cart, Rally, etc websites... In some cases you won't be talking about "V" engines, but piston regardless. You might be surprised what they are revving...

I don't know the exact numbers from any of these sports, but I do know this. I rebuilt a smallblock Chrysler, and there are methods for calculating estimated redlines. It's all a matter of what quality of components you use. Use better, lighter rods, pistons, crank, etc. and don't run insane tolerances and 9k RPM is easily within grasp of most amateur rebuilders.

MisRed

Man! Some of this stuff is hillarious! I suggest you pick up a basic book that explains gasoline engines and how they work. Maybe you will realize 'revs' has nothing to do with the performace/potential of your engine. Just because your tach redlines at 7k doesn't means squat! I spin my Buick motor to no more then 5600rpm.. does that mean your motor makes more power???

I find that the purists and ignorant rotary folks in general bring emotion to the engine swap arguements instead of just plain facts. This is where the flames and arguments start b/c no one is arguing about the same thing.

N1XRR

I HAVE heard a V-8 revving to 9k. NOT a stock car either, my friends Mustang...9 sec 1/4, but still....

Anyway, did I hear correct before that the Renasis is suposed to be all-aluminum? If so weight will be down at LEAST 20lbs.

Michael

skim003

With all respect to V8's, I don't think they have right to be in a RX-7 engine bay, or any other import for that matter. Why put a V8 in a RX-7? If speed is all you care about why not put it in another American Car? I think putting in a V8 in a RX-7 is a disgrace to the people who designed it and engineered it the way it is, same goes with people who put a rotary in non-rotary car. I saw a porche 911 carrera with a V8 LT1 motor on this site once and I just about puked(it was even converted to FR), what a disgrace. It takes years to develop a new engine, to put a totally different engine in a car is like spitting in the face of those who built it and believe in it. Sure you can say that V8 RX-7's are unique in it's own, but I can make a same argument and say it's just as same as any other ford or chevy with a V8, therefore it's not at all unique. If you want a LT1 motor go buy a chevy, if you want a rotary go buy a RX-7, but don't put a LT1 in a rotary because you want both. Just my opinion.

Trav

skim: I know what you mean, the only thing I would say is that some folks are talking about a late 90's or 2000 era engine swap in an 80s car -- so even though the car was designed for something specific, technology has come a long way since... However, to make the alternate point -- if someone is just wanting newer technology, why not go w/ an FD engine or Cosmo engine... Most of those are mid to late 90s too. (I'm going this route).

I do have to laugh at the LS1 in FD guys sometimes though -- I just don't get the point of all that work... anyway, my .015 cents.

FC_Iria

Yes lets compare highly overengineered racing engines to stock production engines

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

Its like Deja-vu all over again with these threads ...

I like V-8's.
I like Rotaries.

By all means, do your V-8/GNX swaps.

But why come to a rotary forum singing praises to the piston, then wonder why we don't follow suit.

Its so obvious that Bullstaff, with his 1 post, is just trolling...he still managed to get 3 pages out of it, lol

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

*edit*

BlackFC

No THAT is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You need to get out more if you think a V8 can't rev to 9 grand. There are redneck mechanics here building 1/8mi cars that rev to 11 - 12k. A STOCK LS1 redline is at 6000, thats only 1k rpm less than a 13BT yet it makes 350hp (over a 150 more) and 400ftlbs of torque (over 200 more). Couple that with the closer gearing of the 6speed tranny, and that 1000rpm doesn't mean much.


Per the GM website the LS1 weighs 495lbs fully dressed and is 20.4" long. The 13BT weights right at 400lbs fully dressed and is right near 15" long (i will admit i had to try to use a tape measure on my engine in my car with all the stock **** hanging off if it. So we are talking 90lbs and 5". 90# can easily be saved, the battery relocated, not having to use a FMIC/plumbing and an aftermarket HKS manifold+ a LARGER turbo will only add more weight to the front. Also a set of headers on the LS1 not only knocks about 40lbs off but increases power output also! Couple that with the added weight of the nitrous bottle in the hatch and bam, you're there! There is atleast 3 - 4" EASILY mabey more behind the stock 13B you could squeeze it in without affecting anythign too much. I didnt bother getting the height of either because I do not have an LS1 to measure, but it looks similar, and remember the "weight" in the LS1 will be lower, the crank sits at the bottom of the block and the E-shaft/rotors ride in the middle. And if the car still hs a little push i am sure it could be dialed out with a nice suspension setup, or with application of the throttle.


I have numbers now, mabey we can stop talking about the heart and soul of an inanamate object and think like grown ups, or get over ourselves a little and stop thinking some little japanese guy gives a rats *** that someone put a V8 in a 1980's RX7. I think you need to step back and look at the cars we are talking about, these are not Shelby Cobras, they are mass produced, cheap japanese sports cars. Sure they handle awesome, look awesome, and even go VERY well with the 13BT in them, but there is NOTHING wrong with putting a V8 in one. Truth be told I will probably never do it to my car, but hell, if I blew one to many 13B's in a few years, who knows.

And acctually, if they could make a diesel engine rotating assembly light enough and rev as quickly/high as they could a V8, I am sure we would all be using them, but they have to be a little heavier on the inside being as they work off the principal that blows most engines up.

Matlock

Lets take a look at cost. Is it not more expensive then another rotary? What have those that have done it spent?

BlackFC

You can factor cost, but it needs to be the cost of a 13B making a reliable 400 or so HP. www.thewrongmotor.com reportedly spent about 4g's on the motor (fully dressed),tranny,pcm. The mounts are another $300, throw in $1000 for misc crap and we have a total of $5300.

400hp 13B

Rebuilt/Ported motor $2300 from Pineapple
HKS Manifold $250
60-1 .70a/r Ptrim .96 AR/hotside $750
Haltech E6K $1100
Supra fuel pump $ 180
Aeromotive FPR $120
Bosche 1600cc $200
ACT Clutch $400
Greddy Boost Gauge $125
Greddy EGT $165
Greddy Fuel Pressure $180
MSD 6A $160
Greddy FMIC 24R Spec $1000
Tech Edge DIY Wideband $400



$7300, and I am sure I am forgetting some stuff. And a stock LS1 with exhaust will 100% for sure be more streetable, than a ported standalone 13BT. The 13BT will be fast, cool sounding, and a fun ride, hell I want all that ****, but......for $700 you can get a 75kit wetshot that ups the ante on the V8 even more.

Daniel

LT1-10AE

Torque wins races, but horsepower sells cars is the funniest thing you've ever heard?

You obviously do not talk to many race drivers do you. Or people who know their *** from a hole in the ground at least.

Torque is a measure of an engine's output. Horsepower is a calculation DERIVED FROM torque and RPM.

Hell, when all else fails - GOOGLEFIGHT!

No7Yet

Let me amend that little list....

Dan, you suck :-p

Brandon

BlackFC

Its hard to be so extremely right Brandon, you should reallty try it some time.

Daniel

1989 RX7 - Still 13B powered.

No7Yet

Actually Dan, I've only ever been wrong once.

You see, I thought that I was wrong, but it turned out that I was right.

Bee-awtch.

Brandon
1989 RX-7 - Barely 13B powered.

BlackFC

that is OOOOLLLLLLLLDDD, and even worse not funny.


Daniel
1989 RX7 - pumping air not water....for now :P

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

V8 RX-7s are cheap to build. The example stated above was for an LS1, but for other "old-school" V8s that price is much lower.

rx7_ragtop

U Signed the M************ Contract.

Brad

rx7_ragtop

Actually I've seen close to 800 RWHP from a 13B. Ari Yallon puts down 650+ in a (relatively) streetable car.

Brad

V8RX7com

streetable car? ............ this maybe true in some parts of the country but in California were I live. If it can't pass smog testing ..... it is not a streetable car.

I would like to see a 300HP-or more rotary RX-7 pass California's emissions testing (legally)

this was the selling factor for me doing my V8 conversion.

as screwy as this sounds here in California it is possible to pass the emission laws with a 300HP-400HP V8 RX-7 but not with a Rotary powered RX-7 of equal power.

rx7_ragtop

First, you are quoting a USED V8 price. How much would all this be new or rebuilt? New clutch? (You budgeted for one below... let's compare apples to apples!)

Quote:

400hp 13B

Rebuilt/Ported motor $2300 from Pineapple

A good choice... but you could do it yourself for less than $1000.

Quote:

HKS Manifold $250
60-1 .70a/r Ptrim .96 AR/hotside $750
Haltech E6K $1100
Supra fuel pump $ 180
Aeromotive FPR $120
Bosche 1600cc $200
ACT Clutch $400

All good choices... top quality... and top price too.

Quote:

Greddy Boost Gauge $125
Greddy EGT $165
Greddy Fuel Pressure $180

Now you are wasting money. Let's go out and buy the most expensive stuff we can find. (Note, not the best, just the most expensive!)

Quote:

MSD 6A $160
Greddy FMIC 24R Spec $1000
Tech Edge DIY Wideband $400

Now you are REALLY wasting money. The stock TII ignition is good to well over 500HP with no problems. BDC (Brian D. Cain) makes 425 hp with a STOCK TII intercooler converted to air-to-water by welding a tank around it and hooking it to a pump and Honda Civic radiator. And the wideband? You need this for WHAT? You tune on a dyno, with a wideband in the shop. There's $1560 that you flat out wasted... + a couple of hundred by using "name" gauges- these figures are frankly artificially inflated. So about $1760 that you inflated, plus $1300+ if you do your own rebuild (it ISN'T rocket science, rotaries are simple!) or in other words a $3060 difference from your figures... and you are STILL comparing a new/rebuilt rotary to a USED V8.

Quote:

$7300, and I am sure I am forgetting some stuff. And a stock LS1 with exhaust will 100% for sure be more streetable, than a ported standalone 13BT. The 13BT will be fast, cool sounding, and a fun ride, hell I want all that ****, but......for $700 you can get a 75kit wetshot that ups the ante on the V8 even more.

Daniel

Let's see... $7300 - $3060 = $4240. Less for the NEW rotary than the USED V8. Reliable and streetable? Ask Brian- he drives it to work every day, and has for over 2 years. It also maintains the factory weight distribution, and is a LOT easier to get smogged. (Not that it burns cleaner... just that it is less regulatory hassle on a car using the original engine with mods than on a car with a whole swap.)

Brad

Bullstaff

Yes, that is the long block weight 390 Lbs with heads intake included. Just do a search under Vortec 5300 alot of info will come up.

Yes, I know that GM already has aluminum engines on the market, but this engine will be the new standard small block making it more affordable than the Camaro Trans Am or Vett. when pulling it from a junkyard special.

Yes, the rotery engine can be made to make gobbs and gobbs of power. It is a unique engine that does have its place, but how reliable will it be and how long will it last when modded to 300hp, 400 hp, and up.

Slap a PowerDyne centrifical charger on a stock 295 hp Chevy engine and you now have a 450 + hp engine that will last 100,000 + miles. Add a cam and intercooler and the numbers will continue to rise with reliability virtually unchanged.

No, Im not advertising for grannies or any other conversion company, I was simply providing some usefull info for those parties interested in these swaps. The reason I joined this forum was because I have access to an 89 turbo with a blown engine. The owner is fedup with repairing the car and is/was going to have a scrapyard pick it up unless I buy it. I have until Jan 30 to buy or not to buy.

I have done 7 engine swaps since the 9th grade consisting of:
911 TT engine/transaxle into a VW Bus
350 chevy into a Ford 27' T model
911 engine into VW Super Beetle
351 Cleveland into 84' Ranger
454 into 88' S-10
302 into 86' 4 clynder Turbo Mustang
350 into 87 Pontiac Fiero GT
I built these vehicles for myself not for any one else nor will I ever "do" a conversion for anybody.

People I do not mean to offend, but these things are made of metal, glass, plastic, rubber, & silicone. they are possessions to be enjoyed as the owner sees fit.

How many Pro-Rotary enthusiast have modded their car with stiffer suspensions, bigger tires and wheels, body kits, engine mods, Ect., Ect., Ect....
If you have, then you nolonger have a RX7 you have something else entirely unique. Something that you made and are proud of. We are all auto fanatics & evryone has a different idea of what is right and who is to say they are wrong.