You forgot one:

4) FC and FD owners like their cars the way they are. Why ruin a well-balanced car with a bastard swap?

Isaac

 

Well if they ALL liked their cars the way they are they would not mod them at all. There would be no turbo upgrades, streetports, bridgeports, FMIC, wings, bodykits, etc. Talk to those who have done the 3 rotor conversion about "bastard swap"...cutting the subframe to get it in.

Besides thats, why must we keep going over the balance issue? Even after the swap you can bring it back to 50/50. Even if you had to add weight to the back to do so, the car would still be under 3000lbs...that's hardtop FC or FD. Also, what is there about turning an FC into a 9-13 second car that ruins it? I think what you meant to say was, "Because and only because the car no longer has a 13B in it, it is my opinion that it is ruined". You're entitled to say that, but I have my opinion too.

 

No, what I meant was SOME FC and FD like the way their cars are, as in the engine that powers it. In the case of an RX-7, a car that was designed AROUND the engine, replacing it seems pointless to me. Any way you look at it, whether it be a 3-rotor or a V8, you are ruining the car.

Modifying an engine is one thing, but completely replacing it is messing with the purpose of the car.

You're probably right about the 50/'50 weight distribution, but you can't argue that adding more weight to a small sports car will make it handle any better.

Isaac

 

wasnt this convo going on last month? lol

The only thing that makes a rx-7 better then it was when it came from the factory is taking almost everything Mazda did and re-doing it.
Not like you can go to your mazda dealer and order a turbo upgrade, fuel upgrade, intercooler. So who cares what people do to thier cars. People put Supra fuel pumps in, Izusu intercoolers, and turbos from all different sources. None of this **** is Mazda.

 

No its not Mazda, but the 13B is . I guess I dont know of a turbo upgrade adding a lot more weight. THe 13B is the original engine the car was designed around not a V8. The only reason I even support a 3 rotor is because it's rotory.
Also I used to be a V8 guy and got tired of big cubic inched heavy metal cruisers. The cracked piston and head was the last straw for me.
Yes rotorys are gas pigs so what, like I said if you want a car with sheer reliabilty and good gas milage maybe you need to look at accord and camrys.
Any car V8 rotory or whatever whenever you increase HP and output you usaully reduce longevity and reliability.
I have backed my information up with the things I have read and told everyone where to find it. I did not say things like "I can think of a dozen rotorys off the top of my head that can smoke V8s" Even though I can, it is nicer to post a referance so others can see it for themselves. I am not a engine or car designer most of what I know is from what I have read and seen others do. I will agree 400HP N/A is better than 400 turbo due to lag for one, however I like the turbo and I like tweaking and tuning. I also like seeing the V8 crowds mouths drop open when they see a 1.3 Turbo smoke there 350 or bigger V8s. Like I said I am in the heart of Ford and Chevy country and they dont care about turbo or any import. So when a import wins it is extra special. Evryone can do what they like and I am not comming in here anymore, because this whole thread is 98% opinion and personal preferance on which is better, and only about 2% facts.
So I take it the V8 guys in here have the same qualifications as the Mazda engineers do? Access to all the same testing equipment and so on? They have wind tunnels and can figure out all the mathematical equations that go along with changing the weight and size of the powerplant? They must to be able to say they can build the car just as good with their 8 cyl. Once again Mazda said anything other than 13B would require more weight for the structural support of a heavier engine, plus bigger brakes, radiator and so on. You guys say diffrent. Also any aluminum block motor that will get the weight SOME WHAT close to the rotary is gonna be spendy. You could have one hell of a nice 13B built for that kinda cash and one with 3-5 yr warranty. I believe on the more expensive end of rebuilds from Pineapple racing they offer a 5 yr warranty. Are these aluminum block V8s commin with that? Once again please look at all options before butchering your RXs.
Look around and you will see plenty of 11-13 sec rotarys with mods of course. You will even see 9-10 sec street rotarys for people that have a little more $$ to spend.
I have seen in the profesional drag racing 7 second runs with a 13B. This is why I feel the 13B in everday local drag races, the 13B will remain competitve with the V8 crowd.
To say the V8 powered car is always gonna win every race against all other cars with other motors is a sign of sheer ignorance. I do not say a rotary will always win. I just say it is and as far as I can see it will always remain competitive.
It is no secret I am biased to the Rotary and probably will remain that way. I am not saying I will never own another V8 car again either. As for now though I am having fun learning about and driving my rotary powered car.
Sombody in here said the rotor heads are close minded? I don't thinks thats true. If I were close minded I would still be running a V8 and never would have even looked at the rotary let alone buy a RX7. I think its a safe bet to say the majority of rotor heads owned piston pwered cars before their RX7s. I am also sure a good chunk of those were in love with a V8 at one point in time.
I have slammed the V8s in here, I must admit only because the V8 posts did put me on the defensive. THe V8 posts seemed to be slandering the rotary. To be honest I have owned V8s I like V8s but I also love the rotarys. I love the RX7s. I do feel the RX7 after reading the history and seeing the behind the scenes of the designing of the car and the struggle the rotary had to gain the little acceptance it has should be the one car a V8 should not be swapped into. Once again my opinion only.
On the whole why did Mazda not make the 13B with more HP? Easy they in that respect are like the other car companys and are trying to strike a good balace of performance and reliability/longevity. Why did Chevy not make the Corvette with the Twin Turbos and get 650HP like lingenfelter? Why does chevy not drop a 700HP Nascar motor in the Corvette and Camaro. It is not practical for most people and probably not real good in the reliability/longevity category either. So I hope that can explain why Mazda did not run the 13B to its max capability or run it with a bigger turbo at max boost. Plus it gives us a chance to feel we played are own little part in making it faster
Someone else in here said the upgrades, Turbos and front mount intercoolers dont come from Mazda? True but a lot of the best performance V8 parts do not come from Ford or Chevy either. The thinking with increasing the 13Bs power out put does not matter as much as changing the size and where the weight is sitting in the car. That was the biggest concern.
Also if you guys ever see a V8 powered RX racing at the strip on TV let me know as I wanna see how it does. Toyota has a V8 now that runs in the import sport compact and it does good and yes does win, but it does not mop everyone up and it does not always win. Actually it loses more than it wins. So whatever on that. Do what you want all but please do not think your V8 is gonna guarntee you victory against all the smaller motors because it is not. Well Later

 

By the way I am usmcjsy under my friends name as she was looking at the for sale 7s I just had to stop in and see whats up.

 

Then you've obviously never been to a scale.

A stock S5 TII weighs just a couple lbs short of 3000 lbs. How do you figure you'll be under that if you add weight to maintain a 50/50 and a heavier engine?

 

S4 NA 5speed = 2625lbs stock
S4 TII = 2845lbs stock

You are right about the S5 TII, but I would not use one if I was doing a swap. Also on a side note... when removing unneeded stuff when doing a V8 swap on a TII there is more weight that is removed. TIIs have turbo, intercooler, heavier exhaust, heavier tranny, etc so a S4 TII with no drivetrain weighs the about the same(maybe a little more) as S4 NA with no drivetrain.

 

Long time no see "Big Bad" Rob! I think I remember this conversation from last month too.

"Re-doing" a lot of what Mazda did is a no brainer. Technology has come a long way since the RX-7 left our shores in '95. What's your point? None of the mods are Mazda? Ever heard of Mazdaspeed? (part of Mazda) Or Racing Beat? (they are very closely tied with Mazda)

I'll say it again, modifying the stock engine a car was built for is one thing, replacing the entire engine with a completely different kind of engine is a whole other story.

Isaac

 

Ya you guys are right those turbos and intercoolers are just so heavy! You will save weight and improve handling with the V8 oh and you can run a lighter tranny with a V8 to. Man is there anymore rocket scientists in the house! I was just wondering so I could let NASA know. Last time I picked up a turbo and intercooler I did not feel a combined weight of 100lbs. Also as far as the exhaust I really do not see how you are gonna save any weight there going with the V8.
This is funny we have people in here bitchin about the weight of a turbo and intercooler but dont care of all the extra weight the big V8 is gonna add.
So can everyone in here afford a $4000 dollar engine block? Can everyone afford the rest of the stuff needed to complete the motor besides the block? Also did anyone check on the warranty on the V8s? I was just wondering because throwing down that kind of cash I would want a warranty. Also anyone check out the price of a LS1 motor plus the ECU to run it? Maybe you should they are not cheap. Like I said earlier for $4k you can have a rotary built with the following done to it: Side Cut Rotors, 3mm Apex seals, Street Port, Hardend Gears, New Rotors and Housings, Enlarged Oil and Cooling Passages and more that is a stage 3 motor built for sustained high RPMs and high boost and NOS. Check it out at www.rotorsports.com they build similar engines at pineapple racing, rotary performance and mazdatrix. These motors built to these specs cost more, they cost around $4k but they are built for speed and reliability and come with a 3 to 5 yr warranty depnding on who builds it for you. If you go with the cheaper budget rebuild using most of your old parts you will probably see a 1-2 yr warranty.
Unless you get your motor used from a junkyard any aluminum block V8 is gonna cost you a lot. The LS1 crate motor may come with a warranty but the build your own aluminum block comes with nothing. So you can maybe get a deal on a used aluminum block from a junkyard and take your chances with no warranty, or you can pay top dollar for any new already built aluminum block V8, or pay the $4k for just the block like the first post of this thread suggests. If you do not go with the Aluminum block V8 the weight is really gonna be killing the handling and so on of the car, personally I believe even the aluminum block will ruin it somwhat.
Also if anyone has their Turbo and Intercooler off please weigh it as I wanna see how much they weigh and why the V8 crowd here somehow acts like a N/A V8 will be saving them weight over the Turbo 13B, because they will no longer need the Turbo and Intercooler. Also what tranny is the V8 crowd plan on using that is gonna save them so much weight over the Turbo II tranny? I was just wondering from Mizerus last post it sounded like he may even be saving weight with this swap LOL

 

Way to go Isaac!

 

I gotta agree when it comes to modding the engine that the RX7 was built around is one thing. Swapping in a whole diffrent motor is another. It just is not structurally built to handle a heavier motor. This is why the cars body weighs less than most V8 bodied cars. I hope you are gonna add the extra support where needed to strengthen the car. Also upgrade the supension and brakes to properly control the car and stop it. Then again with the V8 in there and the speeds you will be reaching with those super motors there probably is no brakes big enough to slow that beast down. You boys better pack a chute

 

Still waiting on the recipie of parts from Bogus, He said I could get the parts from Summit to build the N/A 700 HP 350. I figure he must have already done it and I am just waiting for the parts list and part #s so I can order them from Summit.
Maybe he should share his knowledge with Hot Rod magazine and John Lingenfelter and the boys at GM. Everyone else that seems to be building a powerful 350 seems to be getting between 350-400HP on N/A 350. If they only knew how to get that extra HP.
Like I said I still get Car Craft and Hot Rod and they seem to be able to sniff out some some extraordinary cars that ordinary people are building and that seems to be the norm in there mag for HP for a N/A 350. So if anyone else in here gets Hot Rod or Car Craft and has come across a N/A 350 putting out 700HP in those maga please let me know which one it was in and the date of it so I can go back and look. As far as I can see those magazines are the closest to what everyday people are doing with their cars and the results they are getting. I would say though it is the higher end of the spectrum of everyday people.

 

XX ROB: From your last post on this thread I feel you must think all the performance parts for V8 cars comes from the manufacture? Well if you don't think that good. If you do explain the following: Edelbrock,Holley,MSD,Accel,Keith Black,ARP,Paxton,Weiand,Speed Pro,Manley,Crane,Crower,Demon, and so on and so on. Most of the things that makes V8s faster is not made by the original manufacture of the car either. Ya have chevy and dodge guys throwing in Ford 9" rearends and so on.
What Isaac is saying is keeping the powerplant to the 13B. The turbos are not heavy nor are the intercoolers. If you raise boost you need a bigger intercooler and preferably a FMIC and then you need to add more fuel. So what.
Like I belive it was stated earlier Mazda did not build the RX7 maxed out. Nor does any other car manufacture build their car maxed out. Why? Longevity/Reliability is probably the main one. 2nd is probably for safety reasons. 3rd is emisions and so on the CAFE standard and everything. If all cars where maxed out they would be guzzeling gas and would not meet certain government standards. This is where aftermarket stuff usually comes in, it allows people who want to go faster to do so. Usually its at the cost of reliability/longevity as an increase in HP usually shortens these 2 factors. Also some people are happy bone stock and for them thats all they need. Myself I will take the stock motor as far as I feel I safely can go with it. I did a V8 swap on my S-15 Jimmy and what a pain in the ***. Not to mention all the little extra stuff you never think of. There was a lot of hidden costs, and now when somthing goes wrong it is a pain in the *** to work on. Oh well for me a lesson learned.

 

usmcjsy:

You don't think a turbo is heavy? Well you have never picked up a turbo then. It depends on the size, but I would say 30lbs. The heavy part is the iron exhaust housing of course. I have a TD06 17C turbo right here in the room with me, but unfortunately no scale. Add to that though all the hoses, intercooler, BOV, boost controller, etc and all the little things add up. Maybe not up to 150lbs, but I never said that if you take out a turbo moter and drop a V8 nothing will change. Also the stock Mazda exhaust is heavy compared to the headers and exhaust used when you do the V8 swap. You once again have not even picked up the two. The tranny I use (a T-5 5speed) is very small and only weighs 87lbs. The T-56 6speed is 126lbs just if your wanted to know.

I see a theme here:

YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT V8 RX-7s!

I DO know about them because I own one. I also have 4 friends who own one. See, I'm not speaking from theory, I speak from direct experience.

 

I also notice that you keep going on and on about the $4000 monster 13B you can get built at "insert company". Sorry to bust your bubble but that's just the motor. You forgot about the:

$3980 turbo setup

QUOTE FROM RX7.com:

"The GReddy T78 kit is the same high HP turbo which we've used extensively at our shop and our own race car. This setup produces an easy 400+ RWHP at 15psi on pump gas and with proper tuning and more boost, is capable of propelling your RX-7 into the 10's. We've produced over 500 RWHP using this exact turbo setup out of the box. We've found this turbo spools better than the equivalent sized Garrett units."

$1500 fuel management computer
$1200 intercooler
$300 BOV
$200 Boost Controller
$100 Turbo Timer

WOW this is getting fun...I'm at $11,280 already! All this for 400HP-500HP! Seeing that you can built a 400HP-500HP NA V8 for MUCH less than that I rest my case.

410HP SBC 350CI = $2395
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=1875901073

475HP SBC 406CI = $3595
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=1876380351

485HP SBC 400CI = $3,298.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=1876415617

 

Big Bad Rob? How do you figure? I merely skimmed thru this board after a month or so to find the same posts.

$7000, hmm maybe with him doing the labor he can build that engine for under $7000. Actually, if you look on page 46 of the newest Summit catalog you will see a chevy small block that for $9,995.00 shipped to your door you can get a dyno run,fully assembled ready to drop in a chassis 650hp/675ftlbs of torque motor.
So logic would say if you merely bought the parts in that engine you could probably build it for under $7000. I doubt Bill Mitchell is building these engines for Summit and only charging roughly $2000 for labor. Oh if you spend another $500 you can get it with 675hp and 685ftlbs of torque. Last I heard there arent too many 500HP+ rotories out there running on pump gas.

For a carburated, pump gas engine thats damm good for the money and you dont need a rocket scientist with a dozen hours on a dyno to tune it for you.

Of course you will come back with more comments in defense of the rotory, and again I say its great you like what you like, so let people do and like what they like. Me personally I wouldnt bother dropping a small block in a RX-7 because with the money spent to convert the car I could use it towards better things.

 

either my last post got deleated or this will be a double post:

USMCJSY- you would think being in the Marines you wouldnt be so quick to put down something american.
Im sure you get some flack for driving a japenese car dont you? I know when I used to cash my pay checks when I was in the Marines I knew what country I was serving and who payed me, let people put american motors in japenese cars, who really gives a crap?

 

First off: If you put ANY Chevy engine in an RX7 you carb it. Never go with the fuel injection.

Second: ooo 290hp. well you didn't mention 325foot pounds of torque. How much do you race? I'm not talking about pu$$y autocross or running you lil car down the track at test and tune. I'm talking about actually competing in SCCA or NHRA racing events. You talk to ANYONE there and they will say the same thing a very smart person on this forum said not to long ago. HP sells cars, Torque wins races. The new rotary has 250hp but not even that much torque. If you make it have more torque, Then what you are whining about would be viable.

Thrid: Is your user name supposed to imply that you are in the Marines? If so and you are in the Corps, quit bitching. Marines are supposed to be smarter then people think, not make the corps look stupid.

Peace the heck out.
Charles

 

Gee let me see I live in Fargo ND not to many NHRA events going on in this neck of the woods.
Also no I dont catch flack for the jap car as other Marines seem to be loving them to.
Also those motors that Mizeru posted from Ebay do not even have aluminum heads nor an aluminum block. They did mention though the problem with aluminum head warpage on that Ebay link for the 485HP for 400C.I
As far as the turbo upgrades
www.mazdaracing.com tubo upgrade for 350HP=$800
They also have a complete eliminator fuel system=$800
The front mount intercooler=$1,100
Then you can go to www.mazdatrix.com and get the Fcon for $1200
Grand total $3800
So what does a 400 C.I. weigh with cast heads and a cast block weigh. Thats what Mizeru found for $3300
I do not know of anyone looking to spend the $10k for the 650Hp motor in summit rob is talking about, I think I would look at the 4 rotor from Pineapple for $8500 with about 200 more HP and $1500 cheaper.
So whats the prices for some of these aluminum block V8 as thats the only way you are even gonna get close to the rotary weight. Ya I know you can buy cast head abd cast block V8 for dirt but to save this weight you need aluminum heads and block.
Mizeru I do not think I am a tough man but I guess if the Turbo does weigh 30lbs I did not know and with out a scale I guess you cannot verify either.
As for rob the whole American thing 1/2 the stuff Marines use to defend the country is not made in the U.S or by U.S companys. For example just name a few the Harrier, the M249 SAW. Even our NCO sword is not made in the U.S. even a lot of uniform accesories is not made here.
I feel I served my country in the Marines I do not need to buy their cars to, to feel patriotic.
Peace keeper once again torque has not alone been proven to win races if so diesels would rule
Another thing Robbie I know who pays me and I know which car companies sell inferior products and take my $$ and when I have a problem have treated me like crap. Also did you know all Japanese car comapanies have palnts in the U.S employing americans. While the Japanese are opening more new plants in the U.S employing more Americans, are domestic manufactures are closing their plants moving them north or south of the border and laying of AMERICANS just to fill their corporate greed. There is only a few Americans getting fat off our domestic cars and they are the CEOs at the top. Labor for our "American Made" cars goes down when they move plants south of the border but the price of the car continues to go up. Semper Fi Rob!

Mizeru have fun with your heavy cast from top to bottom motor you found on Ebay for such a great deal.
Please tell me again Mazda was wrong it is funny. I love to hear the engineers say the car is not made to hold a bigger heavier motor and you guys say go ahead its no problem those old Japs where wrong when they said that.
Also please let me know when there is a V8 RX7 I can watch at a NHRA sport dominating everyone. I still have not seen one. Also let me know when there is one in the Sport Compact Class dominating. Like I said there is a V8 Toyota racing in this class but still fail to dominate the other import and sport comapcts. They still get beat by the 4cyl and Rotary powered vehicles, they win to somtimes but the key word is "SOMTIMES" Maybe Mizeru and Rob needs to coach the Toyota team and advise them where they are going wrong. Maybe they need to drop the Toyota V8 and put in a Bowtie motor.
One more thing for peacekeeper, Marines are not known to be profesional racers, I am sure if I am wrong about somthing in here when talking cars and racing I will not bring discredit to the Corps. I think most people will understand when it comes to talking cars and racing I am just like any other guy in here. I have my preferances and my own opionions and ideas on which way is the best way to go for me. To say one motor is better than the other would be like arguing which gun is better a AK47 or a M-16. If arguing with some older gents they would say the M1 or M14 is the best. Is anyone really right with those gun arguments? No they are each neat and each have strengths and weakness. It is fun to shoot the **** about em but it always boils down to personal preferance. I am not gonna convince a M14 lover that the M16 is better. They will say the M14 has more hitting power and I will say the accuracry and light weight of the M16 is better than being a hard hitter. Who is right? Who really knows.

 

hehe. I thought I would get a rise out of you. Always. Which do you like better the M16 or the M14? I like the way the M14 looks but I have to praise the way the M16 shoots and is light. I want to shoot one of the little M4's. I found out that the NASCAR Marine race bar is driven by a civilian now. The driver used to be a Marine along with the crew. But now its all civys. That pissed me off. I can't wait till June 22. Thats when I ship out to San Diego. Where have you been stationed? I hope you got to go to Japan. I hear its the bomb.
Charles

 

iron head/iron block SBC = 530lbs
alum head/iron block SBC = 490lbs
alum head/alum block SBC = 390lbs
13B = 337lbs

First off, true those engines I listed are iron head/iron block, but a good set of alum heads is only $1000. Add that $1000 to those prices plus $300 for the carb and you still come out cheaper than the complete built turbo 13B that makes 400HP. Even YOUR budget calculations come out to $7800 total for the 13B.

Second, the aluminum heads warpage note is a relative thing. Aluminum heads warp easier than iron IF overheated. Just like rotary engines BLOW IF overheated.

Third, if a 2 rotor weighs in at 337lbs, what do you think a 4 rotor would weigh? Iron head/iron block V8 range I would think.

Fourth, the most common setup in V8 RX-7s (alum head/iron block and a Sport/GTU/GXL FC) is 153lbs heavier than the 13B. If all you did was move the battery(50lbs) to the back this would be the weight distribution:

2700lbs Rotary FC
1350lbs front
1350lbs rear
50% front/50.% rear

2850lbs V8 FC
1450lbs front
1400lbs rear
50.9% front/49.1% rear

You would weigh the same as a TurboII FC, have near 50/50 weight distribution, and have more HP and Torque for cheaper. This is WITHOUT an aluminim block! Weight was never a viable arguement against V8 RX-7s!

 

double post, never mind!

 

My god you dont give up, lol

Your question was if a 500hp engine could be built for $7000, I gave you one with more horsepower, already run on a dyno, and delivered to your door fully assembled for about $10,000. Which logic would say you could build it yourself for $7000.

But ****, if I can get a 4 rotor for $8500, where do I order one? Is that assembled and come with a dyno sheet? I would seriously consider one and Im not kidding either.

By the way, I prefer a 60mm mortar, just the right size for one soldier to operate.

 

i think that since the r stands fo rotoray, it would no longer be rx7, more like mx7, and ince its a v8, like mx8, hehe, sounds kinda weird eh?