Sorry to Flog a dead horse

Old 09-03-03, 11:26 PM
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Sorry to Flog a dead horse

But I thought this needed an answer.

From the thread "Small Block Chevy Conversion"

in the 11th post in the thread https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...&postid=346036
RICE RACING asked:
"Well, after reading all the post here I just wan't to say this to some of you guys. The following is the parts list and cost "complete" for

a 600BHP 13B Turbo engine.

Keep this in mine, Rebuild time is 100000km or 60000miles
10% racing & 90% street driving

Average cost for rebuild is $1300Aus (inc labour)


Engine (ported, blueprinted) $4500
ecu $1800
fuel system & ignition $2800
IC $1200
turbo system (waste gate, manifold, turbo) $4500
clutch system $2000
rebuild gearbox $1000
engine mapping $300

This is a grand total of $18100 Aus which is around $9500 US
FOR TOTALY RELIABLE "NEW" 13B TURBO SET UP.

I challenge ANYONE to show me a V8 (naturally aspirated) that will make this BHP, be as reliable and cost less than double the amount (in

Australia anyway)! Let alone match the weight or be as drivable ! And please keep in mind this a comparison to 350 Chev "small block"

n/a...You will find out how long valve springs last when you use the cams and revs needed to make 600bhp in n/a trim, I know from experience

! Also the cost (here anyway) is unreal once you start using the "good" gear needed to be reliable at his power level.

That is $9500 US....goodluck !"



Here are a few options. Not 350's, but they are Chevy small Blocks. THe only difference being the bore and stroke.
So they'll weigh the same, and be the same size.:



"FRESH 409 CU.IN SBC COMPLETE"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33615

"THIS ENGINE IS FRESH THIS SUMMER. ITS A .040 OVER 400 SBC, MAKES IT A 409 CU IN. SPEC ARE AS FOLLOWS: GM BLOCK, CAST #509. BLOCK HAS BILLET

SPLAYED MAIN CAPS. CRANK IS COLA 4340 STEEL. MANLEY I BEAM STEEL RODS, FULL FLAOTERS. PISTON'S ARE SRP,12-1 COMP RATIO. HELLSFIRE RINGS. BIG

BLOCK SYSTEMS ONE OIL PUMP, 6 QT OIL PAN, MOROSO, WINDAGE TRAY, TRAP DOOR AND SCAPERS. SFI FLYWHEEL, ATI BALANCER. CLOYES HEX AJUST GEARS AND

CHAIN. ALUMINUM PULLEYS, AND TIMING COVER. EDELBROCK WATER PUMP. HEADS ARE BRODIX TRACK 1'S FULLY PORTED BY M2 RACE SYSTEMS. FLOW SHEETS ARE

POSTED. ISKY TOOL ROOM SPRINGS. FULL ROLLER VALVE TRAIN, CAM MOTION CAM, LUNATI ROLLER LIFTERS, CROWER STAINLESS ROCKER ARMS. STUD GIRDLE.

SMITH BROS PUSH RODS. FAB VALVE COVERS. BRODIX HV1000 INTAKE. 950 HP HOLLEY CARB. MSD BILLET DIST. MSD WIRES, LOOM. HOOKER SUPER COMP

HEADERS, WELDED AND COATED FOR STRENTGH AND PROTECTION. 1 7/8" PRIMARY TUBES. STARTER IS A DENSO GEAR REDUCTION. THIS ENGINE DYNOED 610 HP,

THIS SUMMER AND IS IN A 78 CAMARO, IT GOES 11:0"S IN GOOD AIR AND IS IN A CAR THAT WEIGHS 3600 LBS. IM LISTING THIS ENGINE AS COMPLETE FROM

CARB TO PAN/ WITH HEADERS AND STARTER, ALL YOU WOULD NEED IS SOME GAS AND ITS RUNNING IN YOUR CAR. IF POTENTIAL BUYER DIDNT NEED IT ALL WE

COULD ARANGE A PRICE THREW EMAIL OR PHONE. I WILL LEAVE THIS ENGINE IN CAR UNTIL SOLD, WILL MEET POTENTIAL BUYER AT TRACK, WITH IN REASONABLE

DISTANCE. WILL PULL ENGINE AND PULL PAN AT CUST REQUEST. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO YOUR A 600+ HP SBC BUILT BY TED BOROWSKI RACE IN JOLIET, IL.

IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS ENIGNE YOU CAN CALL ME AT 217-688-3046. OR CALL THE ENGINE BUILDER DIRECT AT BOROWSKI'S. ASK FOR DAVE,

815-725-2727. GOOD LUCK. IT MUST SELL."

610 N/A HP for US $7500



"650 HP PRO SPORTSMAN STROKER - Assembled Complete"
http://www.speedomotive.com/650_hp_p...an_stroker.htm
And it doesn't mention on that page but it is a small block, I got to i through the following links:
http://www.speedomotive.com/ -> "TO OPEN OUR PAGE'S" -> "CHEVY SMALL BLOCK ENGINES ASSEMBLED" -> "650 HP PRO SPORTSMAN STROKER SBC"

650 N/A HP for US $7884.00



And here's one more, not 600HP, but still a respectable 500HP.. just thought I'd throw it in there to show a cheaper option with almost as much power.
"383 Small Block 3.80" Stroke Crank"
http://www.goautocenter.com/383_small_blk.htm

500 N/A HP for $5750


Anyhow, hope this is what you're looking for RICE RACING.

Last edited by thehoj; 09-03-03 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 09-04-03, 03:00 PM
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Maybe down under it is different, but over here the cost of building a 13b is more and piston is less. If it were cheaper and more reliable to do the 13b then I wouldnt have gone through the hassle of swapping. Looking ath the prices of the 13b stuff you quote many that are simply not doable at that price over here.A ported and blueprinted engine for $2300 would be great, but it probably wouldnt last too long. I would add around 6K to the US total to get a reliable engine. What are your octane values over there, as this will have a good amount to do with reliable HP in a rotary engine. Since the 13B has had more time exposure there, I suppose that there are many more aftermarket shops than over here where there are probably less than 10,000 running FD's to work on. 600 HP Fd's reliably running on pump gas are a rarity around these parts.
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Old 09-24-03, 06:04 PM
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I just have one question... Why does the SBC have to stay N/A? If your gonna spend half the buildup cost on a turbo kit for the 13B. Then I should be able to do the same. Here in the US... I can build a 1200BHP SBC for 10K USD....
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Old 09-26-03, 07:10 PM
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.. um rotary's are more?? really? i can pick up full TII motors with 5spd and ECU for $900 Can. ($750 us).. I can pick up RE's with the TT setup for under $1300 Cad. Not sure where your getting your rotaries from but I can buy a BT a hell of allot cheaper then a run of the mill 350. hell I'm building a BBC to replace my 1/2 mil kilometer 305 in my 91 pickup the cost is that close to the same ( as a 350).. @$1400 from the wreckers.
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Old 09-26-03, 08:01 PM
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PPC-Racing, please give me the # for your source. I just picked up an '84 SE and I'm looking for a motor to put into it. I want a turbo setup. Chris at CP Racing quoted me $2500 CDN for a reman 12A for my '82 GSL and that is why I went for the 5.0 HO swap in it. If you know where I can find a complete TII setup then I want to know about it.

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Old 09-26-03, 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by PPC-Racing
.. um rotary's are more?? really? i can pick up full TII motors with 5spd and ECU for $900 Can. ($750 us).. I can pick up RE's with the TT setup for under $1300 Cad. Not sure where your getting your rotaries from but I can buy a BT a hell of allot cheaper then a run of the mill 350. hell I'm building a BBC to replace my 1/2 mil kilometer 305 in my 91 pickup the cost is that close to the same ( as a 350).. @$1400 from the wreckers.
Um, were we speaking of used engines above? Go to Northern auto parts and get a build kit for your 305 for $154, including pistons. Try that for your rotary that has lunched an apex, or a worn housing (damn cant overbore). Nobody usually touches used 13BRE because they dont have a long life expectancy, so $1300 can be a gamble. As for TII engines vs piston you can buy used 5.0 roller engines around here for much less than th ecost of a TII and will give you more power per dollar.
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Old 09-26-03, 08:41 PM
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$700 CDN!

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Old 09-27-03, 05:37 PM
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Yea, I was give an 89 LSC a couple of years ago for free, it had bad air bags and ran well. 178 to the wheels in stock form with 154K on it.
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Old 09-27-03, 07:07 PM
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PPC-Racing? TII motor for $900? Where? I have the cash right freaking now! This is my latest aquisition and it's begging for a turbo!




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Old 09-28-03, 02:15 AM
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call me, I'm a reseller of the parts, 705 722-6733.. What do you want or not want with it..?? I also have a 3 rotor up for sale but they are still way too much $9K with tranny and ECU ( not that , that's really any good for us. ) I even have a line on Canadian made 4 rotors.. I have to call these guys to talk with them about it..

Oh the deal with the engines is , if you put it in and it does not work , take it out and it will be replace with another one.. ( they don't test, frankly, with two containers a month rolling in they can't test and it's cheaper to just toss em.) however if your like me I just kept my RE and I'm doing a rebuild on it.
pretty FB BTW.
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Old 09-28-03, 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by TOUGHGUY
PPC-Racing? TII motor for $900? Where? I have the cash right freaking now! This is my latest aquisition and it's begging for a turbo!
S4 13BT $750, S5 13BT $950, FD 13BTT $1950, 20B-REW $3600
http://www.nippon-motors.com/Performance%20Engines.htm

Other importers:
http://www.soshinusa.com/
http://www.fc3s.org/engines/used_j_spec_engines.html

Another option:
http://www.winisp.net/gsl%2Dse/

Last edited by Evil Aviator; 09-28-03 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 09-28-03, 03:26 PM
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Thanks, I will be contacting you about the middle of next week. This is my last week at work until I go on parental leave.

The motor in the SE is running but the chassis has 217 000 kms on it and I don't know if it has ever been rebuilt or not. A complete TII with tranny and ECU with low mileage sounds appealing though. I will evaluate my needs and we can go from there.

Evil A, thanks for the links but I live north of the border. Shipping would be more than what I would pay for the entire motor here!

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Old 10-01-03, 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by TOUGHGUY
Evil A, thanks for the links but I live north of the border. Shipping would be more than what I would pay for the entire motor here!
Oh, my bad. FYI Area 51 is 27 miles south of Rachel, Nevada, USA.
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Old 10-01-03, 06:39 PM
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NP. It's actualy my bad. It just goes with the rest of my profile.

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Old 10-29-03, 03:05 PM
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haha..

that **** makes me laugh..
you have to spend thousands on a turbo setup and run 20+ psi... to get the power you claim.. btw you will not get 600 hp out of a rotary on pump gas.. period..
then you go on to say
"I challenge ANYONE to show me a V8 (naturally aspirated) that will make this BHP, be as reliable and cost less than double the amount"

you forget that what makes the power on the rotary is the turbo.. without it, it would make like 200 or so..

you show me a 600 hp rotary... and ill show you a guy who is saving for an engine rebuild..

now then if you want to compare apples to apples i can show you tons of turbo v8's and some v6's that cost about the same and make 700-800-900-1000 + hp on 93 octane and wont break after a few hard driving sessions.

as the old saying goes there's no replacement for displacement.... i know i may be hard for you to understand but not even the rotary can defy the laws of physics.. wise up.

now before i get flamed into a burnt matchstick i want to say i dont hate rotarys i think they are fine but what i do hate is people who make comparisons like this and say "wheres your v8 now" when in common knowledge its known that bigger motors equal bigger power, its not some made up thing to trick everybody into buying a domestic v8..
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Old 10-30-03, 03:19 PM
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http://www.montygwilliams.com/

heres one fine example..

i couldnt find any website with a 600 hp pump gas rotary.. though.. weird..
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Old 11-02-03, 03:35 PM
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I already have around 600ft/lb of torque for less than 9k us. With a set of forged pistons and rods and I can make those numbers for around the same price or less reliably. *shrug*
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Old 11-03-03, 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by firstgen12s
http://www.montygwilliams.com/

heres one fine example..

i couldnt find any website with a 600 hp pump gas rotary.. though.. weird..
damn, i can't even imagine what it would feel like to have 1200 hp! if i would do a motor buildup like that, it would go into a car that looks decent, those late 70's, early 80's vettes are just hideous imo
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Old 11-03-03, 05:51 PM
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i agree but 1200 hp is 1200 hp..


id drive a rusty busted up yugo with rainbows and pink poke-a-dots on it if it ran 10's ya know..
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