LS series engine swappers, FACTS.
04-28-07, 11:12 AM
#51
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by Turbo 3
This "argument" of 450 hp not being streetable is rediculous
Of course a high horsepower car is going to be more tractable in daily driving if most of the power is coming from a bottle, a turbo, or a supercharger.
04-28-07, 12:48 PM
#52
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i just saw a trial with an edelbrock set of heads, on a completely stock ls1, that gave it 450 horsepower, 100 over stock with bolt on heads...well i'll be damned. even stock electronics and tune...
04-28-07, 02:26 PM
#54
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by Sr20fd3st
i just saw a trial with an edelbrock set of heads, on a completely stock ls1, that gave it 450 horsepower, 100 over stock with bolt on heads...well i'll be damned. even stock electronics and tune...
It has long been documented that LS1 crate engines produce about 400 horsepower out of the box, so the gain would be only 50 horsepower, if that. I also doubt they left everything else alone and simply swapped heads.
Let's see your proof.
04-29-07, 01:18 AM
#55
They certainly could have made 450 crank horsepower with just a set of heads... if they spun the motor to 7500 RPM and murdered the rod bolts.
At a 6000-6200 RPM redline, a set of 500 cfm heads aren't going to make that much more power with a stock cam, intake and exhaust, let alone a set of 330-340 cfm edelbrocks. It's just NOT happening. Did Edelbrock do this test, cause you know, they have nothing to gain by skewing the results...
So, just to clarify further; this was done with a stock LS1 lid, filter, throttlebody, intake, exhaust (to the tips), and all the accessories? Or was this an electronic water pump on a naked engine running long tubes into exhaust vacuums with an LS6 intake and a K&N cone on the end, sitting in a dyno booth?
You realize engines are air pumps, not magic boxes... right?
At a 6000-6200 RPM redline, a set of 500 cfm heads aren't going to make that much more power with a stock cam, intake and exhaust, let alone a set of 330-340 cfm edelbrocks. It's just NOT happening. Did Edelbrock do this test, cause you know, they have nothing to gain by skewing the results...
So, just to clarify further; this was done with a stock LS1 lid, filter, throttlebody, intake, exhaust (to the tips), and all the accessories? Or was this an electronic water pump on a naked engine running long tubes into exhaust vacuums with an LS6 intake and a K&N cone on the end, sitting in a dyno booth?
You realize engines are air pumps, not magic boxes... right?
04-29-07, 08:19 PM
#57
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by Sr20fd3st
there's just no point...
Believe it or not, there are people around who actually know what they're talking about, and didn't pick up all their information from reading web or magazine articles.
04-30-07, 03:05 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by 65Imp
I meant street "max effort" which is the point of the conversation and this post.
The point was raised earlier that the 450 rwhp 13b vehicles are more "streetable" than the 450 rwhp ls1 vehicles. The above points are considerations in a "streetable" vehicle would you not agree?
True max effort builds are race vehicles, like the examples you posted. Like I said those factors important in a street vehicle are thrown out the window. Those vehicles come down to a power/dollar and are nowhere near stock. Sooner or later as you push the performance envelope you have to make concessions. My arguement is you will make more concessions with a FD at 450rwhp than a ls1 at 450rwhp. The only reason I brought the point up was because of these comments:
in response to how streetable a high hp rotary would be:
I don't think this thread is about max effort race vehicles. The term "streetable" gets thrown around a lot and the point is argued a great deal since people have a different definition of "streetable"
"streetable" is somewhat flexible in defining, yet I think most would want teh qualities above to define as a "streetable" vehicle. Many times this term is similar to "daily driven", although some people will drive a race car everyday, most would prefer the previously stated qualities.
"Street-driven" is much easier to define, as any car that has ever been on a public road whether legally or illegally, and concessions are only made due to owner preferences. Most high hp rotaries fall into this category.
"race" is generally considered a vehicle purpose built for timed events, so does drift qualify? IDK
The point was raised earlier that the 450 rwhp 13b vehicles are more "streetable" than the 450 rwhp ls1 vehicles. The above points are considerations in a "streetable" vehicle would you not agree?
True max effort builds are race vehicles, like the examples you posted. Like I said those factors important in a street vehicle are thrown out the window. Those vehicles come down to a power/dollar and are nowhere near stock. Sooner or later as you push the performance envelope you have to make concessions. My arguement is you will make more concessions with a FD at 450rwhp than a ls1 at 450rwhp. The only reason I brought the point up was because of these comments:
in response to how streetable a high hp rotary would be:
I don't think this thread is about max effort race vehicles. The term "streetable" gets thrown around a lot and the point is argued a great deal since people have a different definition of "streetable"
"streetable" is somewhat flexible in defining, yet I think most would want teh qualities above to define as a "streetable" vehicle. Many times this term is similar to "daily driven", although some people will drive a race car everyday, most would prefer the previously stated qualities.
"Street-driven" is much easier to define, as any car that has ever been on a public road whether legally or illegally, and concessions are only made due to owner preferences. Most high hp rotaries fall into this category.
"race" is generally considered a vehicle purpose built for timed events, so does drift qualify? IDK
04-30-07, 06:53 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by Sizzlenut
I'm surprised you guys aren't tired of feeding bs or listening to bs. Get off the computer and go work on your car.
But why? They're still running.
04-30-07, 08:53 PM
#61
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yea. maybe ill go build another motor since i have no experience doing it. hey maybe ill go build that bolt-on ls6 just for argurments sake, since it's impossible. Oh oh I know..and THEN I'll go have a carb tuned to get just as many horses out of it as a fully tuned EFI system! oh wait..that's dumb..and not very streetable I'm sure.
05-01-07, 11:48 AM
#66
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by Sr20fd3st
maybe I should keep my head out of my *** and actually research some of the things I'm babbling about...
If you think that EFI can make more maximum horsepower than a carb can on the same engine, then you don't know anything at all about tuning.
05-01-07, 01:18 PM
#67
Originally Posted by jimlab
You know, that's a great idea.
If you think that EFI can make more maximum horsepower than a carb can on the same engine, then you don't know anything at all about tuning.
If you think that EFI can make more maximum horsepower than a carb can on the same engine, then you don't know anything at all about tuning.
SR20,
Go get an account on LS1Tech. Find this magic 600 HP stock cam/longblock LS6, come back and show us. Your knowledge far exceeds that of the people arguing with you, clearly. We lowly idiots who actually own Gen III GM engines need guidance. Please help.
05-01-07, 01:46 PM
#68
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by digitalsolo
But Jim, come on. Cars with good power output were nearly undrivable until the EFI gods solved all the problems in the late 80s. The previous 80 years of automobile history were filled with WOT only pieces of crap.
We're talking maximum output here, nothing more. Carbs don't leave anything on the table that you can gain with EFI in that respect.
05-01-07, 07:49 PM
#69
Originally Posted by jimlab
Did you read my comment about EFI's benefits over a carb being improved drivability and fuel economy?
We're talking maximum output here, nothing more. Carbs don't leave anything on the table that you can gain with EFI in that respect.
We're talking maximum output here, nothing more. Carbs don't leave anything on the table that you can gain with EFI in that respect.
I agree with you, although you can get pretty good drivability and economy out of a carb as well, with proper fine tuning. EFI definitely bests it there though.
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