digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

Come on Jim, AFR heads are worth 30-40 HP, but there are TWO heads on an engine, so that's 60-80 HP RIGHT THERE.

I thought you were good at math...

Oh, and SR20, sign me up for one of these 600 HP bolt-on LS6 motors. Actually, sign me up for two of them.

BoostFrenzy

Well I sold the car, I just simply like the FD better... the cam was "unofficially" 240/244 .650 lift @ 111lsa and it was just way too annoying to try and milk the engine above 2k unless it jerks and overall I just didn't like the car *shrug* i'm waiting until i can afford a stock C6 Z06

Sr20fd3st

yea carburetors can be tuned to be just as efficient as an efi system..thats just plain retarted.

anyways all i was trying to state to begin with is that the motor that boostfrenzy had in that z06 was unstreetable because of the way it was built, not because it was a 450 whp ls6. go out and buy yourself an ls6 and bolt on the usual crap and get it tuned right and tell me you dont get 600 at the crank...christ

how hard can it be to go 150hp over stock on an ls6

twilight slide

I know it's hard to read, so I made the important parts bold for you. JL conceded carbs aren't as "efficient" i.e. drivability/fuel economy. The point is they will make the "same maximum power".

rajahFD

600 at the crank with bolt on's and tune? hmm..

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

How hard? When you have an excellent intake, damn good factory manifolds and a pretty solid stock tune? Pretty damn difficult.

Find me one example of a FAST 90/90, header, intake, catback, tune car making 600 bhp with accessories on the motor. Just one. It's easy, there must be dozens of them... Add heads and a big cam to it, and sure, 600 bhp is achievable (although still ugly on stock cubes), but not with bolt ons, no way. Just to reiterate, you're stating that intake/exhaust + tune is good for 150 HP. That's a 33% power increase over already good performing components.

65Imp

iTrader: (8)

It seems that the max effort bolt on "streetable" ls1 builds are at about 500 rwhp, give or take 20 rwhp. (usually take but this is for arguements sake) "streetable" is always open for debate, but the ECS package (tfs heads, custom cam, and tune) that has the video and dyno online seems quite live-able for day to day.

Now we have to decide which train of thought we subscribe to in terms of drivetrain loss as measured off an engine dyno, to a wheel dyno. Is it apercentage or a given amount? One common train of thought is a manual has ~15% loss, which is 90 hp off of 600 hp. That would be 510 rwhp, not too far off of the 500 demonstrated in some of the max effort street builds.

I think the attitude that any of this is "simple, easy, sure thing, etc" is the problem. For these kind of results you really need to plan out your setup, and hope the moon is in alignment with the dyno. Even then you will often be disappointed. Look at this vette he drove, it was a bear with 450 rwhp. Sound like the prime factor is the tune, and a case of "big cams are best" mentality. But lessons like that are often made when shooting for the big power #'s.

Sr20fd3st - the big power turbo "vette" you are thinking of is likely John Meaney's C4. IIRC he would tell the exotics he smoked that it had a "chip and exhaust."
I would not consider him an average builder, he developed the Big Stuff 3 fuel injection units, and is pretty damn qualified in automotive terms.

Also LMAO at the much more streetable 450 rwhp 13b's. Suuure, and they are quiet, docile, idle with no problem, have no cooling issues, full working A/C and don't smell like unburnt fuel. Most of them even get 25+ mpg right?

BoostFrenzy

This car was 475whp/410wtq and ran a best of 11.1@124 (just a couple passes, no good seat time)

the car was fast but at that level, to reach that power level, you're throwing drivability out the window... chicago motor cars bought the car from me and has it listed on their website, i'll be surprised if anyone buys/enjoys it... as for me i'll be looking to go with a stock heads/cam ls series engine with a built lower end and add some boost/n2o to reach my goals and streetability

rosey

iTrader: (1)

That cam is pretty big, some of the drivability problems may have been down to the tune, but it certainly isn't going to be as civilized as a stock z06. Running more cubes would have helped make good n/a power, without sacrificing much in the way of drivibility. For example, a bolt-ons c6 z06 would probably make even more power than the c5 was making, and it would drive like, well, a stock corvette. There is also always forced induction, to help make streetable power too. Too each his own...

lol at Sr20fd3st

Sr20fd3st

boooooo

slo

iTrader: (1)

Ive personaly seen at least 2 that pass all of these criteria, with the possible exception of the un-burnt fuel part. But then converterless V8's also don't pass that criteria. And I don't think you could make a 450WHP LSX that was also smog legal.

rosey

iTrader: (1)

Do these 450whp 13b's run on pump gas? How many miles of hard driving do they last?


I still think the OP's problem was at least partly down to tuning...just making sure the tune is dialed in properly would likely have made it much better, otherwise swapping to a smaller cam wouldn't be giving up much power and wouldn't have any problem driving around town.

My question is, what the HELL did you think you were getting yourself into in the first place? Cage, slicks, huge cam with lumpy idle...sounds like more of a race car than a daily driver, you'd think you'd go for a test drive before buying it just to sell it a day later...unless I'm misunderstanding what happened.

BoostFrenzy

I'm usually very tolerant of excessively loud impractical cars, I figured i'd just learn to love it for the power

basically, for the price it went for i had to at least try it, knowing it was 0 risk if i wanted to immediately resell

but i guess the point i was trying to make here is, every v8 guy i showed it to thought crap drivability, cam surge, ridiculous lope at idle and all the things that go along with a "race setup" actually made the car cooler LOL, nobody felt it was too silly to drive on the street

jimlab

The LS7 already does, and so can any 400+ cube resleeved LSx. It would be harder to do with a smaller displacement engine, but even an LS2 with L92 heads, an L76 intake, and a very mild street cam might squeak by, even in California.

So, how many 350+ RWHP rotary cars do you think there would be if they had to pass emissions too?

fd3s_jerry

that's why north dakota's cool....... NO EMISSIONS LAWS!!!

slo

iTrader: (1)

Your right, I wasn't thinking about the LS7

In CA for an FD 350-375 (estimate not experience) is the absolute upper limit to be smog legal, due to the limitations of a having a stock looking turbo system (BNR Stage 3) running through even the best CARB certified HF cats.

Technicly it isn't actually legal because its not legal to modify the fuel system with larger injectors/pump/PFC or other ecu, but every other part required to do it is legal, and it will pass the visual and emmisions inpection, and run/drive like a stock car.

HF cats have gotten pretty good, and I suppose in a state with no visual inspection requirment, a large enough turbo could pass emmisions and make much more out to the limit of pump gas for the particluar setup.

Ever since I got a complete (but busted) 13b-rew from an LSX swapper cheap, that is actually my goal, to make 375 RWHP from a street ported REW that passes emisions tests and visual inspection in an FC.

I am still amasing parts for an LS1 swap into a miata.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

Don't forget a Magnacharger kit on an LS2 is putting out 510 RWHP and is CARB legal as well.

65Imp

iTrader: (8)

QUIET
What exhaust were they running? Better not be a canister-type. Do pets, small children, non-car people grab for their ears as you fire the engine? Do the neighbors glare at you when you drive by their houses? Set off car alarms just driving down the street? Not get exhaust tickets once a month from the police? (with angry post on forum ~15 minutes later)

Docile:
Do they run that rwhp level on the street on 91 fuel, all the time? Gas that does not need an additive at every fill-up? Can they be driven in traffic? Stop and go? Start up without massaging the gas pedal? Not flood at the drop of a hat? Could these cars be driven by a spouse, friend, or family member without a 15 (or more) minute dissertation about what to watch, check, not do, adjust, etc? After they drove off would the owner be comfortable that nothing would happen if the person using the car kept his/her foot out of it?

Idle with no problem:
Cold weather all good? Hot starts with no problems? Idle at under 1000 rpm? Is the temp stable in 100 degree weather while idling? (see next)

Cooling issues:
How many gauges devoted full time to temperatures of one kind or another? How often do they need to be monitored? How resistant to fluctuation in temperature are these engines? How much do the heat exchangers run for these cars? Do various types of chemicals need to be blown in or on these heat exchangers to keep temps reasonable? What about chemicals injected to keep the engine from detonating? When the temps do rise, how resistant to detonation are the engines in these cars? I would think at 450 rwhp things may heat up pretty quickly, resistance to detonation may be a good thing.

A/C:
I think it is pretty cool you know someone with a 450whp fd that kept his A/C. I personally have not seen any.

Fuel Smell:
I agree that a converter-less ls engine may smell a little like fuel, but nowhere near a 800/1600 pumped single turbo FD, which is what you need for 450 rwhp. Yes, these cars were tuned. Burning eyes, headaches, and passengers that smell like gas when they get out are the norm. If one of these cars leave a parking lot and 5 minutes later I can still smell it had been there, that is more than a little fuel smell.

MPG:
You know of 2 rotaries running 450rwhp that at that hp level get over 25 mpg? Really!? Wow. What injectors are they running? You could not possibly be mistaken in that they can go 5-10 miles on a gallon, then turn off the car and roll 15 miles down a hill, or behind the tow truck?

Smog:
(since you mentioned it)
As we all know actual emissions are only 1/2 the consideration for CA smog legality. Therefore it is hard to debate any smog issue in terms of CA smog since it can either be 1.stock or 2. Have manufacturers that create smog approved equipment for modifying the vehicle. These parts will often be 2x the cost of a comparable part that performs the same.
I don't think you want to discuss the "smog legality" of high hp v8's vs. rotaries in CA. But emissions alone may be worth the argument. Many N/A ls1's with stock displacement run 450rwhp with cats. You add blowers, and turbos and it gets silly. Anywhere over 400rwhp with any sort of Cat is a miracle with a single turbo rotary.

If you know of many 450 rwhp rotary powered cars get all the info you can on them, and start modifying FD's to do that. You will put Petit, PFS, and everyone else out of business. You will also very likely raise the going price of FD's, much like the LS swap has raised the price of rollers quite a bit. 450 rwhp FD's are pretty much the max effort builds, and like any highly modified vehicle, most if not all of the above points go out the window. The more you retain, the more of a true"tuner" you are.

slo

iTrader: (1)

most people with modified rx7's arent concerned with the vast majority of the things you posted about. Many don't care if the space shuttle can't be heard over there car, and want to see flames shoot from the exhaust, 450 WHP FD's aren't the max effor builds, not even talking about 3 rotors, there are probably a half dozen street driven cars on this forum over 600 WHP

fd3s_jerry

yeah, there was a guy who just broke 700 hp and 550 lb/ft in a 13b, with a gt42r. @ 35 psi. NOW THAT'S A MAX EFFORT BUILD!!!

65Imp

iTrader: (8)

I meant street "max effort" which is the point of the conversation and this post.

The point was raised earlier that the 450 rwhp 13b vehicles are more "streetable" than the 450 rwhp ls1 vehicles. The above points are considerations in a "streetable" vehicle would you not agree?

True max effort builds are race vehicles, like the examples you posted. Like I said those factors important in a street vehicle are thrown out the window. Those vehicles come down to a power/dollar and are nowhere near stock. Sooner or later as you push the performance envelope you have to make concessions. My arguement is you will make more concessions with a FD at 450rwhp than a ls1 at 450rwhp. The only reason I brought the point up was because of these comments:
in response to how streetable a high hp rotary would be:
I don't think this thread is about max effort race vehicles. The term "streetable" gets thrown around a lot and the point is argued a great deal since people have a different definition of "streetable"
"streetable" is somewhat flexible in defining, yet I think most would want teh qualities above to define as a "streetable" vehicle. Many times this term is similar to "daily driven", although some people will drive a race car everyday, most would prefer the previously stated qualities.

"Street-driven" is much easier to define, as any car that has ever been on a public road whether legally or illegally, and concessions are only made due to owner preferences. Most high hp rotaries fall into this category.

"race" is generally considered a vehicle purpose built for timed events, so does drift qualify? IDK

slo

iTrader: (1)

I don't think anyone said that a 450 WHP 13B would in most cases be more streetable than a 450 WHP LSX.

I was under the impression that you where saying a 450 WHP 13b absolutley couldn't be streetable, thats not the case.

dbragg

iTrader: (7)

im not going to read this all, but my friends own two LS1 camero SS. one has 350rwhp/360rwt and the new one has 440rwhp/??rwt NA and 580rwhp/670rwt with the bottle. he hasnt hit the bottle yet and may never. we went on a trip in the higher out engine and it was fine. kind of touchy in a parking lot, but its also set up for spray. the other one has drivien back and forth from georgia to wyoming twice. both are rock solid.

i love rotaries, but youre ignorant if you cant admit theyre flawed. IMO LSX FD is what mazda should do for the new RX platformjk

88IntegraLS

I look at my V8 FC and that's the conclusion I come to.... the car should have come with pistons to begin with. Mazda let the configuration drive the design, rather than building a car for the sake of balancing performance with civility. Maybe they thought they needed the rotary to define themselves with in the market... something to give their cars a sense of mystique.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

I drive my shops 900 HP/900 tq (to the wheels) SC LT1 camaro to car shows all around the twin cities and it's perfectly streetable with a 6 speed in traffic...AND I can get 26 mpg on the highway.

This "argument" of 450 hp not being streetable is rediculous and one being waged by ignorance having never had the opportunity to experience it first hand. Ignorance can easily be cured by knowledge; just don't impose your supositions as "fact".

Sure, a 400+ rotary can be driven on the street and some may consider it streetable but it is certainly putting forth substantially greater effort to achieve that power output at the upper portion of the powerband vs. an equivalently modified V8, which is pushing out the same or more HP than the rotary under it's "average" load output. Peak numbers/output would be much greater and street driving does not generally mean WOT anyhow unless you want a ticket or to cause an accident that is.