RETed

We got a new dyno on town, and I had a chance to get the old FC on while it still had the stock turbo on it.
My old T5/T6 hybrid crapped itself a while back, and I swapped back to a stock unit just to keep the car running at the time.
This stock unit is smoking slightly, so it's going to get swapped out soon.
I do have a T04E "60" hybrid sitting on the side, and that's probably what's going to go on next - 300hp easy.

Important specs:
Rebuilt + ported 13BT
4 x 720
STOCK Zenki TURBO running 11psi
STOCK INTERCOOLER
STOCK FC turbo FUEL PUMP - don't try this at home folks, see notes below
Haltech E8
Crane Cams HI-6 on leadings
All BUR9EQ's leadings and trailings
*87* octane fuel - yes, EIGHTY SEVEN octane - I forgot I was running the crappy gas - don't try this at home folks
Nasty generic 3" I.D. cone filter - can't see through it it's so dirty - forgot the Blitz filter at home

I wanted to get a baseline of where the car was before going with the bigger turbo combos.
I didn't want to spend too much time (thus only 3 runs) cause the turbo was on it's way out.
Since this was a Dyna Pack, I was expecting a drop in power (versus a DynoJet).
The car previously made 253.9hp on a DynoJet with the T5/T6 hybrid (at 15psi).
I would've been happy if it broke 200 with the Dyna Pack.



1st run - thin, dashed red line
4th gear
Redline set at 7,500RPM
EGT's got WAY hot (over 1,000C), but no ping from the knock sensor
This is why you see the drop in power on the top end.
Baseline run netted 218hp at the wheels - wow, didn't expect this much.
Friend said the car was spitting sparks out the tailpipe at redline - yeah, too hot.

2nd run - thicker red line
3rd gear - don't like to run the car that hard on the dyno, so I asked if I could use 3rd; DynoJet pulls at 253 were done in 3rd anyways
Redline dropped to 7,000RPM
I adjust fuel from 4kRPM on up roughly 10% richer - notice the drop in power in the center, but power jumped on the very top end.
EGT's stayed down and no sparks out the back.

3rd run - thicker green line
3rd gear
I adjusted fuel from 4kRPM - 5.5kRPM back down to original and started to add more fuel from 6kRPM to 7.5kRPM.
Final netted a hair over 240hp at the wheels at 11psi - I was impressed.
I had an IR temp gun with me, and I shot the TMIC right after this run - a littler over 130F, not too bad.

On the DynoJet, the numbers would've been about the same or slightly more than my old 253 run.
If I tack on a conservative 10% to the 240, the estimate on a DynoJet would've been in the 260 - 270 range.
WOW.
Remember, STOCK turbo....STOCK intercooler...11psi...87 octane fuel.
Basically, the only change was the Haltech E8 install.
I had a brief delusion of trying to beat the 260 # claimed to be the highest stock turbo dyno at one point.
The FMIC core is installed, but the piping isn't installed.
I have a boost controller, but it was off.
FMIC + 15psi of boost could get real close to the 260 # if I really wanted to push it - but I knew this turbo was on it's way out, so why stress it any more...

Notes on the stock fuel pump...
My fuel maps were pretty smooth to begin with, so I was surprised it started to pick up power when I jacked up the RPM's close to redline.
Then I remembered the stock fuel pump was still in there...
DOH.
This shows that the stock FC turbo fuel pump is running out of capacity at this point.
My old estimates on stock fuel pump max were at 240 - 250hp at the wheels on a DynoJet, and this is pretty much spot on with this evidence.
The fuel pump power wire is rewired to direct from the battery (througth a relay) due to the Haltech install.
I do have a voltmeter installed to monitor fuel pump voltage, but I kept an eye on the J&S and EGT most of the time.
Normally, voltage should've been over +13.0VDC...

Side note:
I went searching for all the Dyna Pack runs that were posted in here...
I found RockLobster's old thread of claiming 265 at "6psi" stock turbo with an RTEK.
After seeing what my set-up can do, I'm even more convinced that claim was bullshit, and / or something is fishy with that dyno run.


-Ted

pistones

iTrader: (5)

what kind of AFR's were you running with 87 octane?

RETed

I don't need no stinkin' wideband...

The shop wideband was dead, but I told him I didn't need it.
So, AFR's were not measure nor logged.


-Ted

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

How many miles are on the rebuild, and how big was the port?

Damn those are good numbers!

RETed

Rebuild has about 30k on it, so it's fully broken in.
Porting is my own proprietary stuff.
It's about as big as you can go without getting stupid and adding any overlap versus stock.
Exhaust port is cut open really early, so that's why the low torque numbers - this is one of my earliest port designs to stress turbo spool over low end torque.


-Ted

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

so it actually held 11psi to redline? i dont think you would be able to make any more peak hp than what you did, seems turning up the boost would just give you a better torque curve

my old S5 turbo/stockport S4 setup did 250whp on a dynomite dyno, but it wouldnt hold any more than about 6 psi up top. gave it a nice flat hp curve from 5k on though

arghx

iTrader: (3)

My stock s5 turbo couldn't hold more than 6ish to redline. This was with a Greddy 3 row FMIC and big streetport.

I'm not surprised by the power numbers except that you did it at that octane. A friend of mine did ~250rwhp (dynojet) on a healthy rebuild with stock ports, stock s5 turbo, stock ECU + SAFC, running at 13psi. So basically maxing the crap out of all the stock stuff (had walbro pump and 720 secondarys).

Now here is a barrage of specific, technical, and possibly irritating questions about timing/tuning if you have time to answer [any of] them:

how many degrees of leading advance, especially given the octane? Could you describe your advance curve? (imagine x axis is rpm/boost/time and y axis is timing advance) do you:

1. advance it, then retard it at peak torque, then continue to advance? This is the type of curve I am currently using on my T04S, 18psi, 100 octane unleaded, AFR is ~11.5 with 14 degrees leading and 12 split at peak torque, advancing to 17 degrees at redline with 10 split. seen some Banzai Racing maps do this

2. just steadily advance it and flatten out the curve at torque peak, then keep flat to redline? I think I've seen some BDC maps do this

3. advance it steadily (but not actually retard timing once you hit peak torque as in case 1), flatten at peak torque, then advance after peak torque? I think I've seen some Chuck Westbrook maps do this



how many degrees of split? I presume 12 with that kind of octane?

Also you say that you didn't get any knock sensor pinging. I am using Power FC with the stock knock sensor (in what, the rear iron?), and it is noisy enough that I often don't really trust it (especially when I am decent at reading plugs for detonation). Where is your knock sensor located, and does the Haltech have closed loop knock control? Is your EGT gauge (1 or 2 channel?) located in the downpipe or did you install it in the turbo manifold (if that's even possible on a Zenki mani)? Did you check the plugs.

RETed

Given the FMIC + stock turbo, I'm not surprised.
I do have a big eBay FMIC core installed, but it's just sitting there - too lazy to run the IC pipes for now.
I figure it's a "waste of time" to run the big FMIC with the stock turbo - as you have found out, it drops boost a LOT.


FMIC? Stock TMIC?
That's NICE numbers from that set-up!
I can't see running anything over 240hp DynoJet from my stock set-up with the stock TMIC and stock (reprogrammed) ECU.
A suitably sized FMIC might get it up to 250, but that would've been a royal waste of time in my book.


Mind you, I'm not going be giving out specific details of the tuning.
I do charge people for tuning, so some of it is going to be vague.
I'm going to try and remember of the top of my head the numbers...
Also keep in mind that ignition tuning was not something I wanted to do on the dyno - in fact, I didn't touch any of the ignition maps.
Like I said before, the stock turbo was on it's way out, and I didn't want to waste time fine-tuning when another turbo is going to get slapped on soon.
This dyno session was to get a baseline of what the car was doing and to get used to the new Dyna Pack - I've got tons of experience with DynoJets previously.


On the whole, I run very aggressive ignition timing and taper is down to 15-degrees max going into boost.


I believe in this if you want to maximize every ounce of power.
Peak torque is the most dangerous area for (advanced) ignition timing.
Detonation is most prone here.
If I were to fine-tune, I would start adding 2 to 3 degrees of advance after peak torque.
For reasons stated above, I didn't waste my time doing this.


This is how my ignition maps are currently set-up, but they are not fine-tuned.


This is basically just a variant of #1.
It's just a little more aggressive ignition timing than #1.
It's just a matter of how confident you are of your tuning skills?
From my experience, (advanced) ignition timing does not gain you that much more power increases, as compared to a piston engine.
Doing this versus #1 might get you 1 - 2% gains(?), which is negligible for a street set-up.


It's about 10-ish.
It could be 12, but I'm trying to recall off the top of my head.
My old split used to adhere to the stock ignition split look where it went down to 0 at "0 boost" and then split back out under full-load boost.
I've change it to just taper from vacuum all the way to full-load boost split.
Basically, I've eliminate the "sag" in the middle of the load maps.
I run high vacuum splits up to the max the Haltech E8 can handle - 50-degrees - at higher RPM's.


I run a J&S, but it's strictly there just to monitor.
The actual ignition retard wires are not connected to anything.
The sensor is located on the middle iron.
No, I do not run this into the Haltech.


Single Greddy 60mm P/H EGT gauge - sensor located in "middle" of the stock Zenki turbo exhaust manifold.
Since the turbo exhaust manifold is collected, this is not a problem just to run the single sensor to monitor both exhaust ports.

Yes, I do check the spark plugs regularly.
They would normally come out looking pretty stockish - slight black with tan deposits.
I change the spark plugs about 1,000 miles ago, so they are fairly new.
I did not check them after these dyno runs though.


-Ted

boosted1205

iTrader: (9)

Sheesus....Fuucking nice run Ted.
I couldn't believe you pulled that out of a stock turbo and IC.
Now you KNOW you need to get that TO4, IC and tune the E8.

RETed

Oh ****, here's da man...

Yeah, I nearly fell on the floor when the initial run made 218.
I had to ask Sean (Shawn?) - the owner - TWICE, cause I didn't believe the numbers.
When I managed to eke out 240, I was like...wow...
bigb was there - he was impressed - he gave the not-bad nod of his head.

I probably could've broke 250 and tuned a better midrange due to the crappy / clogged air filter - I can't believe I forgot the Blitz filter at home. :P
But like I said, I wanted a good baseline and the turbo is just about done so waste time...

I'm reading that K20 thread on ForumsHawaii where they are bragging 227 / 169...
Kinda funny, cause I made 240 / 203 in about 15 minutes...literally.

This should give me good motivation to get that hybrid in and start making serious power.

Come on biatch!
I like see your car run!


-Ted

boosted1205

iTrader: (9)

See......you didn't have high expectations and look what happened?
BAM........240.

One turbo RX8 guy came in and claim to make at least 300...easy. He couldn't even get past 230. **** was breaking up all over the place.


There's guys who come in and "Oh...I should make 350...easy...maybe 400".
Can't get past 290.
It's funny how they react after that. It's like a bully stealing your candy and sending you home. They walk around in disbelief and talking to themselves.

They walk into the shop like a big man and when the dyno puts up numbers way below what they thought...it's fuuckin classic.

Sean text me your numbers and I was like " holy fuuck!" I thought he was joking.
Imagine what it will do with a T4, IC and tuned E8.
I'm sure Bigb was impressed. He doesn't get impressed too easily.

Me?? ****...I am expecting XXX numbers and I don't want to be disappointed.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

^ Rx-8's have really weak ignition coils. Typical turbo kit for those cars makes about what a T2 can do on stock turbo or a small hybrid. But what do you expect from a car that wasn't designed for boost?

Thanks for the detailed response.

I'm just trying to learn a little more about tuning from those who are more experienced than I. As far as my friend who made 250rwhp on stock ECU + SAFC (stop TMIC and ports), in hindsight I wonder if that dyno reads a little high. Everyone I know (Rx-7's, piston cars, whatever) seems to get a higher # there than anywhere else--maybe 10-20hp difference. I dyno'd my 172rwhp on my n/a car there almost 3 years ago. The shop has lately been accused of shady business practices, so who knows.

When I feel like pulling my car apart again I am going to install a digital EGT (not sure if I should bother with dual channel on an HKS log mani) with a 0-5v output that I can log with my PFC datalogit box.

Question about the dynapack: I've used one once, on my old nonturbo which put 155rwhp down there and later 172 on the aforementioned dynojet. I know they typically read a little low, but I was under the impression that they are somehow tricky for the operator to use/maintain? It looked simple enough to me. Just hook thing the to the hubs.

RETed

From my experience staring at dyno graphs, I use 10% as a correction factor from the DynoJet numbers.

172 - 10% = almost exactly 155.

There is way to fudge the numbers to make them read high - it's all in the correction factors, and if you know about this, you can ask the dyno operator to check their parameters page.
I know how to do this on a DynoJet but not on the Dyna Pack, but I'm sure it's pretty similar.



-Ted

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

That kind of thing always makes me laugh too. I showed up at a dyno day with a rough road tune done and only 2k miles on a new motor. After only some rough tuning after the 1st pull it put down 245 on a dyno dynamics dyno. Street ported pineapple motor with all race oil & cooling upgrades. Stock turbo, stock IC, 550/750, rewired walboro, racing beat exhaust, apexi intake, otherwise stock on 91 pump gas. When i walked in i was expecting 200 maybe. Peak power was at 7k with the turbo having dropped boost to 6psi. About 8psi at 5800rpm was what i had the boost controller set for...

The next guy on the dyno was a hatch civic with some form of the 1.8 teg motor, some gigantic turbo, and open exhaust. Louder than hell. He watched my dyno runs and started talking about 300 down no problem. He never managed more than 230. And stock MS3s were putting down 220 consistantly on this dyno, same morning.

I couldnt help but smile at the guy...

antman0408

iTrader: (2)

Still think mine is bullshit.

Stock S4 block, turbo, tmic, rtek 1.7, corksport exhaust, 9psi

arghx

iTrader: (3)

When I take my T2 to the dyno I am going to get the actual rdf files or whatever from the operator so I can put it in WinPEP7, the dynojet software that everyone uses which is available on their website.

boosted1205

iTrader: (9)

There were a bunch of Civics came down with Integra motor swaps...turbo..this and that...all bragged to each other who would make the most power ranging from 300-350.
Before that a 240 with SR20 w/S15 turbo and Power FC put down 330. He just smiled...real down to earth guy. He was happy as hell.

They were saying things like "Ehh...I should be able to beat that."
None of their cars got past 210. And one of their girlfriend said loudly "Wow...your car is SLOW!!"
That was the highlight. Classic.

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

yep when i first took mine to a dyno day, there were several honda guys there too.. one dude was saying he was expecting 180whp out of his n/a b18 or something with cams, loud exhaust, ect.

i loved that look on his face when it didnt break 120whp LOL. Before my car was strapped down, I was saying 220whp max, and it proceeded to put down 250whp, boost didnt break 9 psi.. funny thing is my car looks like ****, not one body panel matches hehe good times

RETed

Yep, I still do.


-Ted

arghx

iTrader: (3)

it's a good thing civics/integras are so light. Friend of mine has a built-to-all hell integra with B20/B18 hybrid motor (B20 Cr-V bottom end, GS-R head) and a T-61 and he only managed 350whp @ 14psi. That's not bad or anything, but the motor itself has a decent amount of work done to it like rods and pistons. Throw a T-61 on to a stock series 4, 5, or 6 block (like a reman) and you'll do that at 14psi without need upgraded parts.

Rx-7's aren't that great for easy dyno numbers (compared to say LSX motors or Supras), but Honda 4 bangers are worse I think, and certainly worse than say other 4 cylinders like Evos or STi's.

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

Nope, all legit, plenty of witnesses i have the printouts etc...

and it was 245 to the ground on a dynodynamics dyno... 6psi at 7000rpm

not 265.

It is amazing what a properly built, ported, fresh engine can do....when installed and tuned properly by an engineer...

RETed

Sorry, my bad...
I dunno why I kept thinking 265 and Dyna Pack...

Lesse, you are basically running half the boost I was...
"Stock ECU" (i.e. AFM) versus my Haltech E8...

Uh, no, I still think that dyno was rigged to read high.

I'd like to see you run your car on another dyno, and if the numbers jive, then I'll believe you.
Right now, your numbers are an anomaly.

Please, can we keep this crap out of this thread since it has nothing to do with my dyno run?
If you wanna keep arguing in your thread, I'd be happy to oblige.


-Ted

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

You brought me up by name first. It is not uncalled for that I defend myself in your thread. Apparently if someone produces better results than you don’t chose to believe them. And that’s fine, but don’t expect me to lie down. If you call me out using words like "bullshit" you have little support in my mind for asking this conversation go elsewhere.

As i stated stock MS3s ran during the same dyno day and were all putting down within about 2-3 HP of 220. There was at least 6 of em...all the same results. That car is rated at 263 flywheel under the new mandated SAE rating system. So we are talking about my car doing perhaps 295 SAE flywheel HP, is that so hard to believe???

To be honest there are more fishy things with YOUR claims than mine. Do you have a cat? How would you characterize your port work? Because with no cat and any appreciable port work i have a VERY hard time believing your "stock" turbo held that 11 psi past about 5500 rpms. ANY car set up like mine with race exhaust and even a small street port, stock turbo boost will drop just like mine did down to 6-7psi at redline.....

There is nothing that will inherently produce more power having a stand alone vs a chipped ECU and piggy back. Sure you can more finely tune other parameters that allow more fuel and boost thus more power. But for a stock turbo i have just as much appreciable ability to change AFRs with the AFC as you do. In either case it makes little difference talking stock turbos. If your claim is that my Air Flow Meter is an obstruction that would limit power I again ask you what restrictions are you running? Cat? Ports? This is a simple question of CFM and there is only so much CFM a stock turbo will flow. With restrictions like stock ports and cat and AFM and otherwise stock intake and throttle body sure someone could conceivably hold up to 12psi at redline because that’s about the same CFM as 6-7 psi with race exhaust a good pineapple port job, good IC. etc....

Some comments about my numbers. It was early May here at the time and humidity and temps were relatively low. I could tell the effects of that due to boost creep. In the mid summer months around here my car doesn’t boost creep at all but when colder it does. The swing is as much as 3psi. Those colder temps i am sure produced higher numbers. I would probably have to swap over to my ARC intercooler to produce the same numbers in the summer and turn the BC up some. I switch back and forth based on the temps prior to track days. 1) I prefer having a TMIC with a heat shield for the street so it dosnt heat soak (not a problem on the track) 2) It's a simple way to fight boost creep in the early spring and fall...

RETed

My mods are detailed on my web page.
You're welcome to look at it anytime.

As for the exhaust, it's a RB 3" downpipe, RB 3" pre-silencer, into a custom single with a 3" Walker Dynomax UltraFLO 6" round muffler in the back exiting the passenger side.
No, no cats.

Here's the challenge, get your car on another dyno, and I WILL PAY FOR IT IF THE NUMBERS JIVE.
I would prefer it be a DynoJet, and you should be making over 270 at the wheels.
10% down from DynoJet numbers should be equivalent to your numbers - agreed?
If you're not willing to accept this challenge, GTFO of my thread.


-Ted

Slow Rotor

Ted I am with you, my car makes 230hp and thats with an extend port, I can't see any possible way of hitting 270 hp with the stock turbo still on my car. I could possibly get some bigger secondarys and make it rev a little harder, but with the amount the turbo starts to drop off i cant see it making much more power. Nice run though, i just wish these things came out with slightly better turbos stock, but they are 20 year old cars