jimlab

Silly question. I think that I need it, but later I convince myself that I don't.

dis1

Ok Damon, maybe you are right about the toe links. The trailing arms are a different matter. I do not think the stiffer Mazda Motorsports rubber bushings would be good enough and I don't want to buy a set of jimlab bushings just for two bushings. Perhaps if they were sold separately I might consider it but then what happens if those wear out? What if he stops making them? I don't see any better solution that trailing arms for this application. The compliance of those rubber bushings causes terrible wheel hop.

dis1

jimlab

I did, but don't worry... 4CN AIR bought a full set of my bushings, stole the measurements, sold them for a $50 profit, and claims he's going to make an incredibly affordable bushing kit available for the good of all mankind.

DamonB

Playing devil's advocate...

You think, I know. I've been on original trailing arm bushings, I've been on jimlab nylon trailing arm bushings and I've been on stiffer Mazda Motorsports rubber bushings. I launch and drive hard on R compound race tires about every other weekend and fact is that the stiffer Mazda rubber bushings get the job done and will outlast anything else while also being quiet.

jimlab has done trailing arm and diff bushings seperately in the past. Keep your eyes peeled.

I don't follow your logic. You're so concerned about something that MIGHT happen that MAY force you to replace something in the future that you're going to give up right now and take all your lumps up front when fact is you have better choices right now? Doesn't make sense.

My experience disagrees with you. I've got soft and sticky race tires, stock toe links, stock diff bushings, stock engine mounts, stock trailing arms with stiffer Mazda rubber bushings and no diff brace, tranny brace or engine torque brace. I perform drag race launches all the time and the bad wheel hop can be avoided if you're astute enough in how you use the clutch when you let the tires hook up (and that doesn't mean slip the clutch. History has shown I'm very easy on clutch disks too).

Fact is the wheel hop doesn't get bad until stuff is worn out, and rod ends are going to wear out more quickly than anything else available. There is rarely a silver bullet that fixes any given problem and every choice has its downsides. People are always too quick to only focus on the good and ignore the bad...

DamonB

...and to think I still work for a living. I gotta come up with a better way to live!

dis1

Not playing devil's advocate...

dis1

Larz

Where can I get the Mazda motorsports bushings? Can Malloy get those for me?

rynberg

Nope. Go auto-x twice and you can order any Mazda part for an even bigger discount than Malloy. I really don't understand why every FD owner doesn't do this...

potatochobit

iTrader: (1)

ok now im confused.


damon is saying its cheaper to buy toe link bushings? arnt those 50 dollars each? plus you have to press them in about 20$ each? thats 280$
that seems more expensive to me than going with aftermarket toe links. also, i heard the bushings were not available without new toe links from mazda anyway, or is this misinformation?

i see no reason to stay stock unless the stock will last noticeably longer?

jimlab

Precisely.

DamonB

Your math is right but read everything else I said. You'll go through several sets of new rod ends on your aftermarket links to equal the life of one set of stockers. You'll also have to have your car re-aligned with the aftermarket ones, you won't with the stockers.

So if you say it's $280 for years and years use with the stockers, the aftermarket ones are easily $220 (purchase price) + alignment ($100) + several sets new rod ends as they were out ($60 a set for cheapie ones)= $500. Even if you only have to replace the rod ends once you're looking at $380ish. Not cheaper than stock.

Misinformation. The toe link bushings are still available.

Read everything again. Stock will last longer and is cheaper than aftermarket in the long run. The stock toe links also will perform every bit as well as aftermarket links. I know, I've run them all.

potatochobit

iTrader: (1)

hmm i think i may order these 'secret element' trailing arms. last time i took the suspension pieces to the shop they wanted 3 days or so to press 2 bushings in...

ill get stock toe links though, when i have time since mine arnt that bad yet.

BFGRX7

iTrader: (2)

Uh, I hear the argument that is being made with regards to a new alignment needed when installing aftermarket toe links and I'd have to (gulp) disagree with that assessment.

Most cars on an assembly line aren't getting a computer alignment-rather they see suspension "guides" that allow the station worker to use pre-determined chassis points and guide tool that is situated between the hub and a point on, say, the wheel well.

I don't see any reason why one couldn't simply create their own "guide" that could be accurate to the mill (smaller than a degree) and use that to re-set their suspension.

~Mike

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Huh? Whether you paid a professional shop to do or use some tool/guide to do it at home, it's still "re-aligning the car" (or checking the alignment if not adjust need to be made).

Most people don't have any way/tools to do an alignment themselves, so the cost should be factored in.

BFGRX7

iTrader: (2)

Mahjik,

What I was getting at is that you could make your own toe alignment tool for under $20 that you could repeatedly use and save 60-150 a pop for a professional alignment. Just trying to "think out the box" and save us money.

~Mike

jimlab

Or you could just measure center-to-center on the bushings of the toe links you're replacing and set the new links for the same distance.

The only time you really need to start worrying about getting a realignment is if you change ride height or remove the lower control arms.

adam c

iTrader: (2)

Yep. Easy, and no new alignment needed.

DamonB

It's tough to do that. Measuring the length of the stock toe links isn't too bad if care is used, but since aftermarket toe links have rod ends and the inner ball swivels around it's difficult to measure their length from center to center. Only way I've seen it done accurately is to build a jig with two pins at the required distance apart. Adjust the rod end lengths until they will slip onto the pins easily.

eyecandy

iTrader: (19)

When new, the inner ball should be very frim, not that some play is bad. I take great care in selecting good rod ends, with minimal amount of movement.

I use the "measurement" technique all the time and yet to notice any ill effects. Yes its not as accurate as a laser guided alignment, but sure gets you close.

I cannot remember if this was mentioned before, but if you want to keep the stock links and just replace the bushings every so often then, it would be wise to buy a press, but that and added cost to factor in ($150-225 est). Or if you take it some where, around here they usually charge $10-15 for 1-2 bushings. WHat really sucks is if you are doing it when screw up and stretch a bushing hole, then you need to replace the link more $$.

Pretty much this can be argued just like "AST or NON-AST", "SMIC vs FMIC", both have good and bads.

DamonB

The problem isn't that the eye moves easily, the problem is that unless you slip the assembly onto a pair of pins you don't know if the bores of the eyes are square to the link when you measure the distance between them for the length. If you aren't slipping them onto a jig you only think you have them lined up straight when you measure them.

If all anyone wants to do is to be able to say "Eh, that looks about right" then any method is fine.

BFGRX7

iTrader: (2)

Damon,

That is precisely why there has to be some sort of bracing independent of direct interaction with the toe links. This bracing/tool will allow one to remove the factory toe links (and trailing arms for that matter) without allowing any movement of the remaining attached suspension members.

Using this design will allow one to attach the aftermarket toe links and dial them in according to the bracing/tool INSTEAD of laying down the OEM and aftermarket links together and trying the "tape measure" method. For sure those eyes on the rod ends move, weather they're the newest, highest quality rod ends or not.

I think I'm going to try and create this brace within my very limited confines. Funny, I don't know about you guys but for me, I could be living in a cardboard box and I'd still have a full compliment of regular and power tools! I may not have anywhere to work on **** but I'll sure find somewhere. Man, I'm sick!

~Mike

Tim Benton

iTrader: (1)

Anyone else want to respond on how toe links and trailing arms help/hurt on the track? 3 local FD owners say they can tell a difference with the M2 arms and toe links since there isn't any rubber bushing flex that happens under load. Just throwing that out since all the talk has mainly been about cost and longevity. I see Damon, who tracks his car, can't tell a discernable difference, any other? Were the local guys going with the placebo effect?

Tim

jimlab

More than likely. Brings to mind ZeroBanger's thread about how big a difference adding a front strut tower brace made in handling. I've driven FDs with and without and I know you couldn't tell a damn bit of difference, but because he added a brace, it obviously must make his car handle better. The human mind is an amazing thing... occasionally.

rynberg

If they were replacing worn out bushings, then they probably did feel an improvement.

DamonB

Right. Of course if a bushing is worn out and you stick something new in there it's going to feel better. Problem is everyone replaces a worn out stock part with some aftermarket thing and then insists the new part is so much better than the worn out stock part. I don't agree with that logic.

I can feel all sorts of small alignment changes but I notice no difference in any of the trailing arm or toe link bushings except somewhat reduced hop with stiffer trailing arm bushings. My engine is stock and I run 245/45/16 race tires. Maybe guys with lots more power and stick could tell a difference, but keep in mind telling a difference and offering improvement are two different things.