question about tuning suspension
07-12-14, 04:19 AM
#1
question about tuning suspension
my questions is how exactly do you tune your suspension? i've read lots of threads and google searches and all just talk about the final outcome with spring rates and whatnot but i want to know how do you come to your final setup, and all that good stuff? im thinking you just drive and set it up according to your preference, but i'm sure it isn't that simple. what are the factors that must be recognized? this is something i've been wondering for a while, and id really like to learn how to do this on my own the right way. any help would be great
07-12-14, 08:46 AM
#2
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you adjust tire pressures, spring rates, tire + wheel widths, ride height, camber, toe, dampening of shocks, sway bars, etc for what best suits you.
I like running a square tire/wheel set up, I put a little rake into my car for better high speed handling, run -2 degree front, - 1.3 degree rear camber, have stock sway bars, 12KG/12KG front and rear springs, dampening is slightly stiffer front than rear, I run 33PSI front, 30PSI rear tire pressures. I brake early and get back on the gas...so I drive the corner with the accelerator.
I like running a square tire/wheel set up, I put a little rake into my car for better high speed handling, run -2 degree front, - 1.3 degree rear camber, have stock sway bars, 12KG/12KG front and rear springs, dampening is slightly stiffer front than rear, I run 33PSI front, 30PSI rear tire pressures. I brake early and get back on the gas...so I drive the corner with the accelerator.
07-12-14, 12:36 PM
#3
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Its not your preference... its that specific track's preference. You must always adapt to car as the car must be adapted to the track. A good place to start is to get all the parts that allow adjustments and have the car corner balanced.
07-12-14, 05:29 PM
#4
my questions is how exactly do you tune your suspension? i've read lots of threads and google searches and all just talk about the final outcome with spring rates and whatnot but i want to know how do you come to your final setup, and all that good stuff? im thinking you just drive and set it up according to your preference, but i'm sure it isn't that simple. what are the factors that must be recognized? this is something i've been wondering for a while, and id really like to learn how to do this on my own the right way. any help would be great
First talk to someone that will help you or tell you what to do to get the car in the ballpark, either with what you have now, or what you plan to buy to upgrade the car. You don't really need a corner balance if you have coilovers, but you will want a good alignment.
Then get something (GPS lap timer app on your smartphone is cheap and easy) or someone to start timing you when you go to track events.
Take a notebook and start recording times and notes after every session. Record hot tire pressures, brake temps if you have an infrared temp gun, etc. Also marking the shoulders of your tires with shoe polish or a grease crayon will help you make sure you are wearing your tires evenly.
From there change 1 thing at a time and see if you feel a difference. If you are learning to feel the car make a moderate change so you can definitely feel the difference. Add 4 lbs of air to the rear tires for instance. Come in and record the changes. Does the car feel better or worse, and was the car faster or slower? If the car jumped the fence from under steer to oversteer, make note of that, cut your adjustment in half and try again. If you have coilovers that are adjustable do the same thing. Make some adjustments of a few clicks and record changes.
Springs can be hard to change at the track with coilovers, but it is doable. Or just try something new for the track day and leave it on. If you have coilovers buy some used springs on eBay in a size that will fit so you can adjust cheaply. 50 lbs is enough to feel a difference. Try different fronts and rears to see how it affects the car.
That is pretty much it. With various mods along with careful note taking I took 11 seconds off my lap times at Streets of Willow from when I purchased my FC to before I swapped the engine.
If you have an FC and want some advice on alignment and setup, post what suspension and chassis mods you have, as well as what tires and HP level you are at now. The less power you have the more you need to do eliminate understeer. If you have an NA FC I can tell you almost exactly where you need to start.
07-13-14, 02:00 PM
#5
at the moment im running stock but i'm getting some stance coilovers soon and plan to do some mild track time. planning on getting a small or mild street port in the near future. i want to do some track but also daily drive you know to school and work and whatnot. since its N/A i'm not after outrageous HP LOL. i'm after great handling on track and street, but i guess what's good for the track might not be for street.
07-13-14, 03:41 PM
#6
What I think you are asking about and people above responded to is typically done on race cars where you have the option to make adjustments to suit a track. A typical street car will not have the ability to make those adjustments. Nor would you want to drive a race setup on the street as you'll wear your tires badly.
For an NA FC, get an alignment recommendation from people that actually track FCs and know what they are talking about. Then find a GOOD alignment shop staffed by people that actually know what they are doing and want to do a good job (ie not the local Pep Boys or chain store). People used to talk about West End Alignment in the LA area but I've never been there.
Next get track time with a good organization that has GOOD instructors. The track time and instruction will be the 'mod' that nets you the best results.
Bad technique makes you think the car is doing something that can be fixed by buying the next 'must-have mod' but seat time and good instructors will 'fix' the issue more-so than parts.
Hope that helps.
For an NA FC, get an alignment recommendation from people that actually track FCs and know what they are talking about. Then find a GOOD alignment shop staffed by people that actually know what they are doing and want to do a good job (ie not the local Pep Boys or chain store). People used to talk about West End Alignment in the LA area but I've never been there.
Next get track time with a good organization that has GOOD instructors. The track time and instruction will be the 'mod' that nets you the best results.
Bad technique makes you think the car is doing something that can be fixed by buying the next 'must-have mod' but seat time and good instructors will 'fix' the issue more-so than parts.
Hope that helps.
07-13-14, 04:53 PM
#7
What I think you are asking about and people above responded to is typically done on race cars where you have the option to make adjustments to suit a track. A typical street car will not have the ability to make those adjustments. Nor would you want to drive a race setup on the street as you'll wear your tires badly.
For an NA FC, get an alignment recommendation from people that actually track FCs and know what they are talking about. Then find a GOOD alignment shop staffed by people that actually know what they are doing and want to do a good job (ie not the local Pep Boys or chain store). People used to talk about West End Alignment in the LA area but I've never been there.
Next get track time with a good organization that has GOOD instructors. The track time and instruction will be the 'mod' that nets you the best results.
Bad technique makes you think the car is doing something that can be fixed by buying the next 'must-have mod' but seat time and good instructors will 'fix' the issue more-so than parts.
Hope that helps.
For an NA FC, get an alignment recommendation from people that actually track FCs and know what they are talking about. Then find a GOOD alignment shop staffed by people that actually know what they are doing and want to do a good job (ie not the local Pep Boys or chain store). People used to talk about West End Alignment in the LA area but I've never been there.
Next get track time with a good organization that has GOOD instructors. The track time and instruction will be the 'mod' that nets you the best results.
Bad technique makes you think the car is doing something that can be fixed by buying the next 'must-have mod' but seat time and good instructors will 'fix' the issue more-so than parts.
Hope that helps.
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07-13-14, 05:18 PM
#8
West End is good, but you don't necessarily need to go there for what you want to do. You need to go to an alignment shop that will align the car to your specs. Don't waste money on corner balancing at this time.
Get your coilovers with 8k/6k springs. That is a good balance between ride and performance. Don't lower the car too much. Depending what shape your car is in, you may need some parts to be able to adjust the rear camber after you install the coilovers.
You'll also want a set of sway bars, front and rear. Racing Beat or Suspension Techniques are both great. Don't even worry about tires yet.. Run what you have on the car assuming they are in good shape.
Beyond that, change fluids, make sure the brakes are all good and the car is in good working order.
If you have any questions drop me a line. I have been tracking my FC for quite some time.
Get your coilovers with 8k/6k springs. That is a good balance between ride and performance. Don't lower the car too much. Depending what shape your car is in, you may need some parts to be able to adjust the rear camber after you install the coilovers.
You'll also want a set of sway bars, front and rear. Racing Beat or Suspension Techniques are both great. Don't even worry about tires yet.. Run what you have on the car assuming they are in good shape.
Beyond that, change fluids, make sure the brakes are all good and the car is in good working order.
If you have any questions drop me a line. I have been tracking my FC for quite some time.
07-13-14, 07:26 PM
#9
West End is good, but you don't necessarily need to go there for what you want to do. You need to go to an alignment shop that will align the car to your specs. Don't waste money on corner balancing at this time.
Get your coilovers with 8k/6k springs. That is a good balance between ride and performance. Don't lower the car too much. Depending what shape your car is in, you may need some parts to be able to adjust the rear camber after you install the coilovers.
You'll also want a set of sway bars, front and rear. Racing Beat or Suspension Techniques are both great. Don't even worry about tires yet.. Run what you have on the car assuming they are in good shape.
Beyond that, change fluids, make sure the brakes are all good and the car is in good working order.
If you have any questions drop me a line. I have been tracking my FC for quite some time.
Get your coilovers with 8k/6k springs. That is a good balance between ride and performance. Don't lower the car too much. Depending what shape your car is in, you may need some parts to be able to adjust the rear camber after you install the coilovers.
You'll also want a set of sway bars, front and rear. Racing Beat or Suspension Techniques are both great. Don't even worry about tires yet.. Run what you have on the car assuming they are in good shape.
Beyond that, change fluids, make sure the brakes are all good and the car is in good working order.
If you have any questions drop me a line. I have been tracking my FC for quite some time.
07-14-14, 04:05 PM
#10
Absolutely go to a track day with the car as is to see how it feels... That can't hurt.
The sway bars will bolt on, you may need new or upgraded endlinks if your stock ones are shot. Keep your stock sway bars if you can, rear especially. You may want to try it later down the road depending on what you do with the car.
FCs like a large front sway bar. Depending on the setup, even no rear sway bar. Mine had a bit of under steer with the NA rotary and low HP so the larger aftermarket rear sway bar helped
Now with the V8 I run no rear sway bar at all, and the same Racing Beat front sway bar.
The sway bars will bolt on, you may need new or upgraded endlinks if your stock ones are shot. Keep your stock sway bars if you can, rear especially. You may want to try it later down the road depending on what you do with the car.
FCs like a large front sway bar. Depending on the setup, even no rear sway bar. Mine had a bit of under steer with the NA rotary and low HP so the larger aftermarket rear sway bar helped
Now with the V8 I run no rear sway bar at all, and the same Racing Beat front sway bar.
07-15-14, 03:50 AM
#11
Senior Member
I would sooner go with somewhat stiffer-than-stock springs and stock-replacement Bilstein dampers all around than inexpensive coilovers. Getting spring rates in the ballpark for your usage and priorities is of course important, but it's really the damping characteristics that can make a car's handling divine or diabolical. Good damping is a must, and you won't get it with low-$ coils.
Dare say that most of us won't need to "tune" much for street/track usage. Get good well-matched springs and dampers that are consistent and digressive, get some decent camber (2, 2.5, even 3 degrees isn't that bad as long as toe is kept minimal), and you're set.
No amount of "tuning" will fix poor damping. Poor damping will give a harsh ride on the street (too much high speed damping) while also limiting performance at the track.
Get a known GOOD basic setup first, worry about "tuning" later (if ever).
Dare say that most of us won't need to "tune" much for street/track usage. Get good well-matched springs and dampers that are consistent and digressive, get some decent camber (2, 2.5, even 3 degrees isn't that bad as long as toe is kept minimal), and you're set.
No amount of "tuning" will fix poor damping. Poor damping will give a harsh ride on the street (too much high speed damping) while also limiting performance at the track.
Get a known GOOD basic setup first, worry about "tuning" later (if ever).
07-15-14, 04:29 AM
#12
Senior Member
I would definitely rather go out on the track on good trackworthy tires and stock suspension than on track-inappropriate tires (most street tires) with even the best suspension mods.
07-15-14, 09:42 AM
#13
If you learn to drive and tune the car with low grip, the faster you will end up when you put on good tires.
07-15-14, 10:00 AM
#14
I would sooner go with somewhat stiffer-than-stock springs and stock-replacement Bilstein dampers all around than inexpensive coilovers. Getting spring rates in the ballpark for your usage and priorities is of course important, but it's really the damping characteristics that can make a car's handling divine or diabolical. Good damping is a must, and you won't get it with low-$ coils.
Dare say that most of us won't need to "tune" much for street/track usage. Get good well-matched springs and dampers that are consistent and digressive, get some decent camber (2, 2.5, even 3 degrees isn't that bad as long as toe is kept minimal), and you're set.
No amount of "tuning" will fix poor damping. Poor damping will give a harsh ride on the street (too much high speed damping) while also limiting performance at the track.
Get a known GOOD basic setup first, worry about "tuning" later (if ever).
Dare say that most of us won't need to "tune" much for street/track usage. Get good well-matched springs and dampers that are consistent and digressive, get some decent camber (2, 2.5, even 3 degrees isn't that bad as long as toe is kept minimal), and you're set.
No amount of "tuning" will fix poor damping. Poor damping will give a harsh ride on the street (too much high speed damping) while also limiting performance at the track.
Get a known GOOD basic setup first, worry about "tuning" later (if ever).
07-15-14, 01:12 PM
#15
Senior Member
If someone wants to learn how to adjust and improve the car, and also drive properly there is value in taking out whatever you have as is to see where you are at to start.
If you learn to drive and tune the car with low grip, the faster you will end up when you put on good tires.
If you learn to drive and tune the car with low grip, the faster you will end up when you put on good tires.
Aside from the fact that most tires just aren't up to track usage anyway and will overheat and chunk in short order, you just can't really judge a road/track suspension setup on the low grip levels from most tires.
Stock suspension is pretty good on the FC, if it's in good order, I'd definitely track on excellent tires FIRST, and then plan suspension mods according to what I felt.
07-15-14, 02:57 PM
#16
Not worth the time/money/effort of modding the suspension and then going out on non-trackworthy tires. Decent tires first! "Whatever you have" could be 450 UTQG all-seasons. No point in springs/struts/coilovers/sways with anything less than track-oriented extreme performance summer tires.
Aside from the fact that most tires just aren't up to track usage anyway and will overheat and chunk in short order, you just can't really judge a road/track suspension setup on the low grip levels from most tires.
Stock suspension is pretty good on the FC, if it's in good order, I'd definitely track on excellent tires FIRST, and then plan suspension mods according to what I felt.
Aside from the fact that most tires just aren't up to track usage anyway and will overheat and chunk in short order, you just can't really judge a road/track suspension setup on the low grip levels from most tires.
Stock suspension is pretty good on the FC, if it's in good order, I'd definitely track on excellent tires FIRST, and then plan suspension mods according to what I felt.
07-15-14, 05:17 PM
#17
Senior Member
do you have a recommendation on tires??? right now i'm on dunlop sport a2 plus stock 205/60/15 15x6 and from what i've read they are an ok tire for the street but i don't think they would stand up on the track. the PO threw them on brand new for free when i bought the car 2 months ago so you know couldn't complain LOL.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSe...55&diameter=15
07-15-14, 08:44 PM
#18
Not worth the time/money/effort of modding the suspension and then going out on non-trackworthy tires. Decent tires first! "Whatever you have" could be 450 UTQG all-seasons. No point in springs/struts/coilovers/sways with anything less than track-oriented extreme performance summer tires.
Aside from the fact that most tires just aren't up to track usage anyway and will overheat and chunk in short order, you just can't really judge a road/track suspension setup on the low grip levels from most tires.
Stock suspension is pretty good on the FC, if it's in good order, I'd definitely track on excellent tires FIRST, and then plan suspension mods according to what I felt.
Aside from the fact that most tires just aren't up to track usage anyway and will overheat and chunk in short order, you just can't really judge a road/track suspension setup on the low grip levels from most tires.
Stock suspension is pretty good on the FC, if it's in good order, I'd definitely track on excellent tires FIRST, and then plan suspension mods according to what I felt.
With suspension mods and those crappy tires I got the car to where I was keeping up with similar HP cars with better extreme performance tires. We are talking about tuning a car here, and that is how you learn what works, and how to drive. It is easier to explore the limits of the car and your driving at lower grip levels. Then when you have figured out your alignment and suspension settings and drop a better set of tires on the car, you drop a ton of time immediately, and pick up fewer bad habits.
07-15-14, 08:45 PM
#19
do you have a recommendation on tires??? right now i'm on dunlop sport a2 plus stock 205/60/15 15x6 and from what i've read they are an ok tire for the street but i don't think they would stand up on the track. the PO threw them on brand new for free when i bought the car 2 months ago so you know couldn't complain LOL.
07-15-14, 09:38 PM
#21
I wouldn't bother getting new tires before you can afford some wider wheels either... or else you'll just have to buy tires again when you upgrade.
^you can't usually change tires at the track... (unless there is a shop there with a tire machine, or someone has one in their trailer, which is semi-unlikely). But you can change wheels which is much more common...
Here is a super helpful website to teach you more about suspension tuning than you ever wanted to know:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
This series of articles is also good:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...and-Tires.aspx
^you can't usually change tires at the track... (unless there is a shop there with a tire machine, or someone has one in their trailer, which is semi-unlikely). But you can change wheels which is much more common...
Here is a super helpful website to teach you more about suspension tuning than you ever wanted to know:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
This series of articles is also good:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...and-Tires.aspx
07-15-14, 09:59 PM
#22
If you brought a set of track wheels and tires you can change them when you arrive at the track.
And I agree, get a set of wider wheels before you get good tires.You can get a used set of 99-04 Mustang wheels in 17x8 for cheap on craigslist, etc. they bolt right on. You can run 235/40/17s all around on them.
07-16-14, 12:32 AM
#23
I wouldn't bother getting new tires before you can afford some wider wheels either... or else you'll just have to buy tires again when you upgrade.
^you can't usually change tires at the track... (unless there is a shop there with a tire machine, or someone has one in their trailer, which is semi-unlikely). But you can change wheels which is much more common...
Here is a super helpful website to teach you more about suspension tuning than you ever wanted to know:
Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page
This series of articles is also good:
The Ultimate guide to Suspension and Handling Part 1, Wheels and Tires
^you can't usually change tires at the track... (unless there is a shop there with a tire machine, or someone has one in their trailer, which is semi-unlikely). But you can change wheels which is much more common...
Here is a super helpful website to teach you more about suspension tuning than you ever wanted to know:
Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page
This series of articles is also good:
The Ultimate guide to Suspension and Handling Part 1, Wheels and Tires
07-16-14, 07:21 AM
#24
Senior Member
No WAY I'd go to the track on Dunlop A2 "sport" A/S tires.
If you're going to the track for the first time, I'd just get tires, personally.
2nd choice would be wheels/tires, but of course that's more $$$
Modding suspension and running totally inadequate tires to go to the track is an absurd idea to me.
There is some front camber adjustment by rotating the strut mounting block, and also aren't crash bolts available? Should be able to get -1.5 degrees I'd think/hope. A lot better than nothing...
We are talking about an NA FC here not a 300+ HP car. Any marginal tire will live. I know, I have done it. I put a set of Nexen 3000s on when I got my FC and wire them out on the track getting the car sorted.
We are talking about tuning a car here, and that is how you learn what works, and how to drive. It is easier to explore the limits of the car and your driving at lower grip levels. Then when you have figured out your alignment and suspension settings and drop a better set of tires on the car, you drop a ton of time immediately, and pick up fewer bad habits.
Also disagree with the idea that budget coils are *ever* a good idea. Not worth it to get camber adjustment when you also get crap damping that won't work efficiently at the track and will make you hate life on the street. Good damping allows you to run much stiffer spring rates while maintaining grip at the track and comfort on the street.
But hey, everybody's got a different approach...
07-16-14, 07:55 AM
#25
Senior Member
Actually, if you have the coin, wheels/tires is a better idea. Much greater performance tire selection in 16" and more still in 17" sizes.