Zoolander

iTrader: (8)

Ugggh. I did all my research last year, got sick of all the choices, finally settled on GC/Koni, and just last week pulled the trigger on the GC coilover kit...all the while being negligent in reading up on the latest and greatest from the "bible" of RX info. GC better not charge me a re-stocking fee!! And what's up exactly with this "articulation" wearing on the upper mounts with that set-up?

Any verdict on the Stage II's yet? Looks like I'm leaning that way for mostly street and rarely track....but hoping for more track.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

as the suspension moves thru its travel the bottom of the shock moves, and the top is fixed, so the top of the strut has to be able to pivot freely.

you'd think the FD wouldn't move that much, but its enough to have the GC plates either loosen or bend. i don't know how bad the FD is, but in extreme cases it causes a side load, and wear on the shock, and the spring can bind against the coil over collar.

it doesn't locate the suspension, but it does carry the weight of the car

again i dont know about the FD specifically, but it is something to consider, and the GC plates do have problems

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I have seen pics of what you describe on other cars - mostly FWD cars with MacPhearson struts. It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with FDs. Every coilover kit I have personally ever seen (except for Tripoints custom setup) uses what appears to be a similar type of fixed upper mount. Some might be different but I've never had a chance to actually see it w/ my own eyes fwiw.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

like i said i don't know about the FD specifically, except that the GC stuff doesn't work.

it is a problem in our honda, and that is double wishbone, along with the FB/FC

it would actually be very quick to investigate

archusangellos

The comp series is a prototype, " race" version of the Trak pro III. stiffer spring rate 15/12 and a better valve for prolonged track abuse. I don't have alot of specific info on the internals all I know so far is that they are a wet dream on the street. I didn't think my FD would ever handle this well. I have to do something pretty foolish with the pedals to make it slide the rear end out and even then it comes back under control quickly with no body roll.

I will get more specs from Cam and post them up when available.
I will have the car back at Sebring on the 12th of June and then we get to see what the new suspension can do for me.
The 12th is also my first solo day at that track so I will be giving the car all its got since there's no one else in it to hurt if something goes wrong. I'm always a little self conscious when I have a passenger. Hurt myself doing something stupid is one thing...

I'll post new pics and stat for the track day after that.

remydrm

Do you have an idea regarding pricing for the "comp" series?

I understand they are still in the development stages with this addition to the line-up but I'd love to have an idea on pricing.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

howard, Is that a bearing or heim joint pressed into the top there?

that would address the issue j9fd3s mentioned.

Zoolander

iTrader: (8)

Well, my GC kit just came today and the statement says there will be a 20% re-stocking fee. I'm sure I can sell it off on the forum at less of a loss than that if I really do want the Stage II Pro Traks though.

This articulation really seems to be a big deal but as the OP mentioned...the GC/Koni combo is "tried and true" ...as evidenced by the many users. The differing opinions are a bit confusing. And now just finding out about the noise and wear on the GC kit from track use on this thread adds to my dilemma.....too much information can be detrimental sometimes!!

Although I've owned the car for 10 years, I'm just getting into really working on it now. I barely know how to drive/push it to its full potential anyways so I probably won't be able to tell any difference in performance (yet, hopefully). But I also want the best within reason and budget....and GC/Koni vs Pro Trak II are within range. Basically, will I be fine with keeping the GC/Koni set-up or should I cut my losses now and get these Pro Traks and be done with it? I think the answer to Gracer's question will provide some clarity....hopefully.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Zoolander,

Here's my opinion (and it's just an opinion). The Koni/GC setup is a good setup and a lot better than most of the cheap coilovers on the market today. However, I don't believe it's as "purpose built" as the Pro Trak line of coilovers. The main question you'll have to ask yourself is do you think you need something "better"?

Personally, I would suggest running the Koni/GC combo for a while and see if you like it especially since you've already paid for it. I don't believe you are going to loose any money on resale by having them slightly used should you decide to go another direction. Most people probably aren't going to give you full price for them unused anyway. That's my 2 cents.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"Is that a bearing or heim joint pressed into the top there?"

i will be away for a couple of days and check on return

drezjdmrx7

iTrader: (1)

Zoolander just my two cents i was just going to purchase the same combo as you did i pretty much live on this forum. It was a the smart choice to make but i ended just ordering the stage 2 pro traks personally if i were you i would just get what you feel like doing. I've spent lots of money buying things that were the smart choice or a best bang for buck and i realized at the end of the day i'll be saying i should of got the other thing. I say just buy what makes you happy with no second guessing i saved up the extra few dollars and got what i wanted. I think anyone who has stumbled on to the pro traks have sold their existing coilovers just to get these. It's a specialty item thats just made for our cars and when you got a guy like Howard Coleman giving them the thumbs up i think it's a no brainer for anyone looking for coilovers. For a shock/spring combo you pay around 800 dollars well up here in Canada plus install which is another 200 so for an extra 300 dollars it's worth it in my opinion. Personally i think for what you're paying for you're getting much more in return. I can't wait to take my car to the track and drive it everyday to work and not break my neck every time i go over a bump. The Best spring rates available in my opinion it's everything any and every FD owners needs for track and street. I think they way your suspension is the different between driving your car and leaving it at home because you have a headache from driving it. I say why can't you be comfortable, fast and look good at the same time.

Zoolander

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for the advice Mahjik and Drez. It's been helpful. I'll probably go ahead and cut my losses now and get the Pro Traks. Yes, I do want something better, especially if it's only $100 more. Now it's going to cost me more than that but I don't want to put anything on there that I will keep second guessing. Also, I only want to do this just once. If I was more comfortable and had the right environment to perform this type of installation, then trying out the GC's wouldn't be a big deal.

Thanks again.

usma_2006

iTrader: (3)

I got my Stage IIs a few weeks ago, but unfortunately, it was the day before I got on a plane to the national training center, and they sat on my living room floor for a few weeks. I got back yesterday and installed them today. I started at about 1 and was finished in time to take the car out for dinner.

While I have driven several high end cars, I would not consider myself to be an expert in handling or suspension by ANY stretch of the imagination. I thought I would post up my thoughts for anyone who, like me, is going to do 90% of their driving on the street and were curious about this particular setup, going more for the subjective "feel" of it rather than the objective data. I'll leave that to Howard and the other experts on here.

Two HUGE thumbs up from me for the Stage IIs. I have yet to try the hardest setting, but on the softest setting, I felt like I was driving around in my '09 Toyota Highlander Sport when I was driving in a straight line. Around curves, however, it still felt like the car was turning on rails and no wheel rub around the corners. I'm running 26.25" from floor to fender on the left and 26" on the right. I upgraded from stock suspension, and the ride was extremely rough. I didn't like driving for more than an hour or so just because of the never ending jolts and road shudder. I took the car for a 15 minute check ride after I finished the installation to make sure everything was good before I take it in later for an alignment. I drove on a variety of roads, from Texas back roads, residential streets, to a well paved US Highway. I was literally giddy as I drove on the back roads without having to grip the steering wheel with both hands so it won't fly out of my hand on bumps (I'm running with reduced pressure power steering as well). When I hit the highway, I opened it up to 90 without even realizing it, slowing down just in time after my radar detector went off. I drove my house mate, who didn't know I had just installed new coilovers, to grab some dinner, and he commented on how much smoother the ride was... I believe he used the words "Mercedes Benz roller coaster" at some point.

All in all, I'm extremely happy with the purchase. I'm usually a very picky buyer and tend to trouble shoot everything. My only complaint would be that they didn't come with a couple spanner wrenches. Instead, I had to drive to what seemed like a dozen different stores trying to find some. On the plus side, they sent a free license plate frame and a couple Pettit beer koozies... so I guess that's cool. I'm a sucker for free stuff.

Zoolander

iTrader: (8)

Hey everyone. I got my Stage II coilovers last week and cannot wait to get them on the car. I got black springs when I was expecting red (from the pictures) which wasn't specified when I ordered so if you're picky about color, then I would specify. I'll live with black....the 58 lb package is not going back!

I spoke to Cam about installation and figured I'd relay his advice while asking for some more. He said that most of those super-lowered FD's out there do not take advantage of the geometry of the FD suspension. The best height adjustment is where the rear A-arm is level with the rear wheel - and this will provide the best handling. You also want to achieve this with half a tank of gasoline and simulated driver weight in the vehicle. I can pretend I know what he's talking about, I do have an idea about it, but I guess I won't know exactly until I get in there. If I erred somewhere in translation then please correct me.

I'd rather not go about this by trial and error too much. Does anyone know a ball park height I can adjust the bottom shock body to achieve this? The top spring height adjuster looks equal right and left. I played with the bottom one and I don't know where it was originally set. Anyone know the distance, say from the top of the top mount to the top of the bottom adjuster, I could set that at to achieve this perfect geometry? I know it'll vary from one person/car to the next but something I can start with would be great. I guess I could call Cam tomorrow but I wanted to throw it out there too.

Also, there were some open questions/topics on this thread that I wanted to resurrect.

Thank you.

jantore

Howard have u been able to test the Stage 3 coilovers yet? And found out if the spring rate works or not?

Im putting my FD back for street use, but will se alittle track use as well ofc. But it will mainly be used for the street, and im putting back my old 13b-rew BP engine with a GTX4294R turbo. So im looking for a nice coilover setup for the FD and came across this thread.

But im contemplating about getting either the stage 2 or 3. The stage 3 is not that much more expensive, and tbh it would be better to get. But about the spring rate, i would want to go for the more stiffer as i used to have Tein RE with 16/16 springs and that was stiff :P

JT

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

well, this couldn't have come at a better time. I too just put in an order for Tein Flex's after trying to decide what to get. I am a Tein Dealer, and can get them at my cost, but even still, they run only a little bit less than the stage II's. Much of my decision making has been based on Howard's recommendations and testing. My order hasn't shipped yet, but I need to cancel it first thing Monday. Here are my concerns, so maybe someone can help answer them. Even though I sell Tein, stance, Kw(wish they made something for my car), and a few others, price and quality still matter to me for my own personal car. I didn't want to spend over $1400-$1500 so Tein seemed like the best option in this price range. Still not sold on Stance and BC. They have, however, been doing pretty well in the Redline Time attack series. JIC and Zeal are outside the budget right now and only Zeal was a real contender.

I am presently on Gab shocks with Eibach springs. I have held off getting coilovers until now due to one of the GAb's leaking oil. I originally got them from Cam long ago. They have been good, but stiff. From what I have been able to gather, the Tein Flex/SS has better valving and linearity than the BC/stance. It also seems to be more digressive than the others from what I have read. At least it used to. I am willing to pay a little bit more for the better shock. Will this new shock from Cam have better internals or at least comparable to the Flex. My biggest issue with the Flex's is the stupid pillow ball mounts. I do not want to use them and was researching other options for top mounts with the Flex's when I found this thread. Supposedly Stance makes a standard rubber mount which, if it fit, I was going to use with the Teins and sell the original pillow *****.

I considered the Tein SS's,(great value) but they use tapered springs and come 12/10kg. Since the rear springs are different than the fronts, I would have to buy 4 new springs (10/8) vs just two 8's to run what Howard considers the upper limit for these cars. This extra cost of the springs, plus new factory upper mounts (mine are pretty dried/wore out), put me at the same price as the Flex's. Plus the Flex's use standard style springs that are easy to find. The SS's use their tapered springs. Downside is I don't want the solid mounts that i am paying $400 more for with the Flexes. That is why I thought of replacing them with something else and selling them off.

Now I find this. exactly what the doctor ordered and Gold to boot. plus all aluminum for slightly more than what I was going to pay for the Teins. Actually maybe the same if Cam offers me shop pricing. Question remains, how is this shock valved compared to the others. Anybody got a dyno yet to review. Also, Many others have said that with really good shocks, you can run stiffer springs. I plan to talk to cam on Monday and see what he recommends. I have an LS1 swap and no PS or AC. Also have the battery relocated in storage bin. I am running 235/40-18 front and 275/35-18 rear, r compound tires (toyo r888) I plan to start autocrossing the car finally as well as do some events at Sebring. Should i get stage III's or stick with 10/8 stage II's. I am curious how the LS1 affects this decision as well as the tires and autocross venue that is easier to participate in. (that means cheaper)

btw. the v8 rx7 forum seems to be down.

aoc007

iTrader: (5)

Any comparisons vs RE-Amemiya DG5 coilovers?

Rice Hata

iTrader: (24)

Jantore- I had the same exact coilovers as you and they were too stiff for me (no major downforce and street driven, no track). I went for the Stage II Pettits and couldn't be happier with the change. I have them on the middle setting and haven't had a reason to change them. Of course the 285/30 square tire setup I recently put on doesn't hurt either

evot23

iTrader: (17)

Forum has been down for a while. everyone migrated to norotors.com Enjoying the read on this read...helping me make decisions on eventual upgrades.

jantore

I think i will go for the stage 3's, but i have not decided yet. Waiting on a response from Howard.

JT

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

thanks, it's been a while since i've been on. That's the funny thing about the LS1. once it's finished, you can go for a long time without doing any work on it.

I just want to make sure that the spring rates I go with are good for my setup as well. I am going to get the corner weight tomorrow and see how it stands now. I will post them for others to reference. waiting for Howard as well.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

oh, other than the spring rates, what is different regarding the stage III vs II? if just spring rates, why the extra cost. Are the stiffer springs more $$

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"I am curious how the LS1 affects this decision"

since a properly fixtured LS FD weighs about the same as a single turbo FD 2 rotor the primary difference actually is the fact that about the time you engage the clutch on a LS FD you are at close to peak torque. this really loads the suspension immediately rather than progressively like a rotary. shock settings will be different.

there are lots of questions re which Trak Pro to buy... as i understand, there are the 3 stages and then a different offering referred to as "Comp."

i believe all 3 Stages have ride height adj independent from the lower spring adj. the first stage it appears is non adj at the shock. the other 2 are adj to a great degree shockwise and feature differing spring rates.

stage 1 is 10/8
stage 2 is 10/8
stage 3 is 12/10

the Comp offering is 15/10 and is quite different in that it is a single wall tube which allows for a larger piston which increases sensitivity. there are a number of pluses and minuses for both types of shocks.

i will be testing my Stage 3 Trak Pros and the Comp Trak Pro at BlackHawk Farms 1.8 mile road racing course in a month. Because SPRING RATE is the most important variable i will be working w a number of springs also.

springs and shock settings do NOT effect the all important total lateral weight transfer. they only effect the speed at which it transfers. too much spring/shock and the weight transfers so quickly the chassis cannot speak to you in time for you to comfortably (it is possible) to ride the edge of control.

"the car just snapped on me" would be the typical comment from someone that found the armco.

you want shocks and springs that allow you to sense the chassis as it nears the edge of traction.

it is a common misunderstanding that any body roll on a road course is bad. actually it is if you are running a strut car. the FD does not have struts. it has a real racecar suspension... unequal length A arms. as the all important outside front wheel moves up into the fender the shorter upper A arm scribes a tighter arc and pulls the tire into more negative camber to offset the body roll. so roll is o k.

lateral weight transfer is uneffected by body roll. lots of roll, no roll, same lateral weight transfer.

if you weld the suspension solid or run loosey goosey springs the same weight is transferred. the difference being you get a warning from the roll where there is NO warning w a solid suspension.

and again, the FD suspension handles the roll from a camber aspect. here is a perfect picture. just look at the camber on the outside wheel while the car is at 3 degrees roll.

how much roll do we want? springs and to a lesser extent swaybars determine roll at a particular G.

let's look more closely at springs...

a 10 KG spring is approx 560 pounds per inch.

cumulative!

that means the second inch is 560 + 560 or 1120!
inch three is 1680!

the typical FD front corner weighs 700 pounds.

we are looking for 2 inches of travel in bump on our roadcourse.

the spring is not located at the tire, it is inboard, so in the front 2 inches of travel is 1.21 inches at the shock rod which is also the center of the spring.

to get effective spring rate we multiply the front spring rate by .605. (rear is .68.)

.605 times 560 = 338 first inch, 677 second inch. at that point when you add in the swaybar the suspension has no further movement.

so if we are running a 15 KG spring... 1.5 X 560 = 840 pounds times .605 = 508 effective.
corner weighs 700 = 1.37 inches of maximum wheel travel BEFORE adding the sway bar!

the window is getting smaller for the car to talk to you. are you feeling lucky? w the much higher rate springs we are reducing roll. but the FD has a fabulous purpose engineered camber curve in bump so what's the point?

BTW, the stiffer the spring the less time the tire is on the asphalt. what's the coefficient of friction on your sticky race rubber when they are in the air?

the way to figure out springs at the track is remove the rubber piston rod cover from the shock rod. place a tie wrap tightly around the rod. push it down to the shock body. do 3 laps. measure the amount the tie wrap has been raised. this is your travel at the shock rod.

you want 1.2 inches front and 1.35 rear. that's 2 inches at the wheel.

big sticky tires, low CGs etc will require different rates. of course there is aero which is an entirely different proposition and one i choose not to get into here.

it will be interesting to see what is actually needed for the FD. i do have my car to complete and a 4 turbo dyno comparison ("Separating fiction from reality.... a couple of days on the dyno" https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/separating-fiction-reality-couple-days-dyno-903611/) to get thru before i have my answers.

i will have my Racebox GPS so we won't be lacking data. how much spring is the correct amount? stay tuned.

howard

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

So I spoke to Cam yesterday and he recommends the comp's. (15/10) I explained that this is a street (90%) and track (10%) vehicle. I am going to try and start running some events with it finally but for the most part still a street car. He still recommended the Comps. I am now confused. I value both his and Howard's knowledge and recommendations, but am confused by the difference in setups by two guys who have raced for a long time on this platform. I understand everything Howard has explained regarding spring rates and weight transfer and the advantage of 2" of bump. Obviously if one has race tires/slicks and is pulling enough G's to max out a 10/8 setup, then higher would be necessary to control the excessive bump, but unless you track and test your particular car and tires, how can you be sure which setup is closer to start with. Being as there is a lot of data on cars with different tires, I imagine there is a consensus of how many g's those tires generate and how much bump results. That being said, I am sure both Howard and Cam are aware of those #'s as well yet 2 different recommendations

I know if I get the comps, I can change out the front springs and that the shocks are better but I need to find out what range works with the valving. They are a bit more $ than the stage III's so that is a factor as well. Archusangellos has them and commented that they are great on the street. Maybe he can elaborate. I just can't see how he would be generating enough roll with those spring rates to take full advantage of the 2" bump and camber gain that comes with it.

Cam did say as well that the key to making these cars go fast is getting the rear end to hook up, same as Howard said. Hence the soft rear rate. He even said that on smooth tracks, he unhooks the rear bar. But I would think that the high front rate would cause the front to be too stiff and push. Am I missing something here. i am only running a 235/40-18 front with a 275/35-18 rear. Tires are R compound Toyo R888. Cam saw no problem with the smaller front tire with the comp setup.

If anyone can put all this into perspective, that would be great. I also see that there are some guys (Fritz, PTRhahn) that also advocate much higher spring rates even on street cars, provided good shocks with those rates. I hope some of the answers to these questions help others as well.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

15/10 seems like a huge different in rate F/R. I'm wondering what the rest of their set-up looks like to recommend that—seems like it would push like crazy.