FD New Brake Options
07-05-07, 06:21 PM
#701
I think you have to get these out on a real racetrack, doing laps for 20-30 minutes to really know what's what. I can't imagine repeated panic stops on the road (granted I don't live in the country like Howard does) are really going to tell you anything.
I remember doing the rotor break-in procedure for my StopTechs which required repeated high speed stop in succession, and the Axxis Ultimate pads felt GREAT, no fade, etc.... I though, "great" maybe their cool for light track duty now that I've got big brakes. WRONG. I went out to Summit Point and they were fading within a lap or 2.
I remember doing the rotor break-in procedure for my StopTechs which required repeated high speed stop in succession, and the Axxis Ultimate pads felt GREAT, no fade, etc.... I though, "great" maybe their cool for light track duty now that I've got big brakes. WRONG. I went out to Summit Point and they were fading within a lap or 2.
07-05-07, 08:37 PM
#702
07-06-07, 12:28 AM
#703
OK, there's been alot of talk here about the brakes being 'track tested'
Well I have the results from my first track test!
There's a couple caveats to this:
1) I only have the rear RacingBrake BBK, because I needed the kit ASAP for this racing season. Since I didn't think the fronts would be done in time I went with a different front BBK.
2) I was using Hawk HT-10 pads. Again since I don't have the fronts, and I wanted to run the same compound front/rear, I can't use RacingBrake pads. Now if they want to make some FMSI D594's for my front calipers I'd be willing to do more testing... Or heck, I'll test the whole front setup...
Background
Some of you have seen this, but last year I ran stock brakes all around. I was running about 300rwhp, and various R-compound (or better) tires with a 'as I enter the track' weight of about 3000 lbs. I tried a couple different pad combinations, from Carbotech and Hawk, but the best setup I came up with was Hawk HT-10 pads in the front, and Hawk Blues in the rear.
Even in this best case, I was burning up a set and a half of front pads and a set of front rotors every weekend. The rear pads lasted about 4-5 weekends, and the rotors were good for about the same. During any particular session I would get 4-5 laps before the brakes were completely cooked and I had to baby them.
I made a few modifications, including ducting from the nose, titanium brake shims, and cheap-o backing plates, but none of them were able to solve the problem. Over the course of the year I spend more than $3000 just on pads and rotors!
Winter changes
The NASA TT classing system for this year changed. Where last year I was required to run in the 'Unlimited' class where my car was not anywhere near competitive, this year I could run a power/weight class and prepare the car much closer to the limit of the rules. To do this meant a power increase up to around 350hp. However there was no way I was willing to do that without getting much bigger brakes.
Enter RacingBrake.
I saw the first posts from Howard in December of last year and immediately wanted to sign up. It sounded like this was going to be the best setup yet. Previous to that I had considered a RZ Rear/Stoptech front setup, but after running the numbers I knew that while this would solve my heat problems, it would likely not be as balanced as the stock setup.
Since Damian had an inexpensive BBK for sale, and it seemed like the RacingBrake front kit was a ways off I decided to order the rear kit and go with the 'ready to go' fronts from Damian. It is important to note that the overall brake torque from the fronts that I have is similar to the RacingBrake front BBK. Also, I do have titanium shims for the fronts, and I did make custom brake backing plates for the rotors. There's another thread discussing that here.
Anyway, I had to run the first 2 events of the year with the stock rears, since the RB BBK was not ready yet.
In early June I got the setup though, and I was able to get it all installed and setup for the NASA MAM race weekend on June 30/July 1.
Numbers: (measured with G-tech Pro RR)
Stock brake setup/RA-1s at MAM from August 2006
Max decel g's about 1.05-1.1, no ABS lockup, HUGE pedal force required
Stock rear/BBK fronts/RA-1s at MAM from April 2007
Max decel g's about 1.0, ABS lockup on fronts, High pedal force required
RacingBrake BBK rears/BBK fronts/Hankook 211's at MAM from June 2007
Max devel g's about 1.2, ABS lockup on all wheels, High pedal force required
Discussion
First off, there's something that I haven't mentioned yet. That is, I have a 1" master cylinder off of the 929. So that partially explains why I have a higher pedal force than some. However it does make the pedal harder, and gives me a bit more fluid movement to move the massive (40mm/44mm) pistons in my front brakes.
Secondly, the latest setup ROCKS! I used less than 1/4 of a set of pads for a full weekend, and during each session I have no fade, either pad or fluid. The pedal stays high and hard as soon as the pads warm up.
At this point I have more brake than tire, which is exactly where I want to be. Especially since I am looking at moving up to the Hankook 214's for NASA nationals. I am able to brake harder and later and still have excellent feel. Actually this past weekend the car was able to brake much more than my mind would let me. I am not at all used to the decel rates I was getting. I will need to re-learn braking zones at every corner. I am able to get equal g's laterally and under braking now, which I think is a good sign.
The design of the rotors was validated to me by the way I was able to see the heat pattern on them as well. The center mount vanes are distributing the heat to each side just as expected.
The other interesting thing is that of my 3 recent brake setups, you can see how the (middle) unbalanced setup, while not overheating, was not able to match the decel rates of the latest setup, or even the stock setup (before it overheated) Again this validates the balance of the design.
Conclusion
I would recommend the rear setup to anyone with a BBK in the front who needs to balance the increased front torque. I've run the numbers with the Porsche/Ultimate Garages, the StopTech and a couple others with 12.5-13" rotors and it's balanced fairly well with all of them. Of course the RacingBrake front setup is also designed to balance well too. In addition you can leave the stock plumbing alone and still be in good shape.
Big thanks to Howard, RacingBrake, and all the forum members who helped in getting this kit together.
Well I have the results from my first track test!
There's a couple caveats to this:
1) I only have the rear RacingBrake BBK, because I needed the kit ASAP for this racing season. Since I didn't think the fronts would be done in time I went with a different front BBK.
2) I was using Hawk HT-10 pads. Again since I don't have the fronts, and I wanted to run the same compound front/rear, I can't use RacingBrake pads. Now if they want to make some FMSI D594's for my front calipers I'd be willing to do more testing... Or heck, I'll test the whole front setup...
Background
Some of you have seen this, but last year I ran stock brakes all around. I was running about 300rwhp, and various R-compound (or better) tires with a 'as I enter the track' weight of about 3000 lbs. I tried a couple different pad combinations, from Carbotech and Hawk, but the best setup I came up with was Hawk HT-10 pads in the front, and Hawk Blues in the rear.
Even in this best case, I was burning up a set and a half of front pads and a set of front rotors every weekend. The rear pads lasted about 4-5 weekends, and the rotors were good for about the same. During any particular session I would get 4-5 laps before the brakes were completely cooked and I had to baby them.
I made a few modifications, including ducting from the nose, titanium brake shims, and cheap-o backing plates, but none of them were able to solve the problem. Over the course of the year I spend more than $3000 just on pads and rotors!
Winter changes
The NASA TT classing system for this year changed. Where last year I was required to run in the 'Unlimited' class where my car was not anywhere near competitive, this year I could run a power/weight class and prepare the car much closer to the limit of the rules. To do this meant a power increase up to around 350hp. However there was no way I was willing to do that without getting much bigger brakes.
Enter RacingBrake.
I saw the first posts from Howard in December of last year and immediately wanted to sign up. It sounded like this was going to be the best setup yet. Previous to that I had considered a RZ Rear/Stoptech front setup, but after running the numbers I knew that while this would solve my heat problems, it would likely not be as balanced as the stock setup.
Since Damian had an inexpensive BBK for sale, and it seemed like the RacingBrake front kit was a ways off I decided to order the rear kit and go with the 'ready to go' fronts from Damian. It is important to note that the overall brake torque from the fronts that I have is similar to the RacingBrake front BBK. Also, I do have titanium shims for the fronts, and I did make custom brake backing plates for the rotors. There's another thread discussing that here.
Anyway, I had to run the first 2 events of the year with the stock rears, since the RB BBK was not ready yet.
In early June I got the setup though, and I was able to get it all installed and setup for the NASA MAM race weekend on June 30/July 1.
Numbers: (measured with G-tech Pro RR)
Stock brake setup/RA-1s at MAM from August 2006
Max decel g's about 1.05-1.1, no ABS lockup, HUGE pedal force required
Stock rear/BBK fronts/RA-1s at MAM from April 2007
Max decel g's about 1.0, ABS lockup on fronts, High pedal force required
RacingBrake BBK rears/BBK fronts/Hankook 211's at MAM from June 2007
Max devel g's about 1.2, ABS lockup on all wheels, High pedal force required
Discussion
First off, there's something that I haven't mentioned yet. That is, I have a 1" master cylinder off of the 929. So that partially explains why I have a higher pedal force than some. However it does make the pedal harder, and gives me a bit more fluid movement to move the massive (40mm/44mm) pistons in my front brakes.
Secondly, the latest setup ROCKS! I used less than 1/4 of a set of pads for a full weekend, and during each session I have no fade, either pad or fluid. The pedal stays high and hard as soon as the pads warm up.
At this point I have more brake than tire, which is exactly where I want to be. Especially since I am looking at moving up to the Hankook 214's for NASA nationals. I am able to brake harder and later and still have excellent feel. Actually this past weekend the car was able to brake much more than my mind would let me. I am not at all used to the decel rates I was getting. I will need to re-learn braking zones at every corner. I am able to get equal g's laterally and under braking now, which I think is a good sign.
The design of the rotors was validated to me by the way I was able to see the heat pattern on them as well. The center mount vanes are distributing the heat to each side just as expected.
The other interesting thing is that of my 3 recent brake setups, you can see how the (middle) unbalanced setup, while not overheating, was not able to match the decel rates of the latest setup, or even the stock setup (before it overheated) Again this validates the balance of the design.
Conclusion
I would recommend the rear setup to anyone with a BBK in the front who needs to balance the increased front torque. I've run the numbers with the Porsche/Ultimate Garages, the StopTech and a couple others with 12.5-13" rotors and it's balanced fairly well with all of them. Of course the RacingBrake front setup is also designed to balance well too. In addition you can leave the stock plumbing alone and still be in good shape.
Big thanks to Howard, RacingBrake, and all the forum members who helped in getting this kit together.
07-06-07, 11:54 AM
#706
Super Snuggles
07-06-07, 12:14 PM
#707
Full Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: nj
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those who are interested in learning more about RB’s compounds (before Howard’s more test on track) Here is a review just being posted at Corvette forums:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...8&postcount=17
In general our COF (Coefficient of Friction) of different compounds are pretty much the same if they are running on street. However they would hold up at different temperature level - the higher the compound the higher temperature limit under which the coefficient can maintain except for ET900 which is a dedicated race pad and is more aggressive and would exhibit its high deceleration rate and torque only if it’s running above its minimal temperature. (300 deg F).
If you are not too sure for now our suggestion is to install the ET500 to start with, then step up to higher compound as you need it.
We are receiving the components this and early next week and will start building the kits next week so we shall start shipping the pre-orders around 7/15.
Four pre-orders will be short shipped, since the order is to be filled on first come first serve basis therefore for order number earlier and including #2349 will be filled. Order #2340 and higher can only be filled in another two weeks or so. We apologize for the inconvenience for the back orders.
We are thankful to the support and patience from all the members and those who have contributed their reviews on our two piece rotors and GooRoo's thorough brake system reviews not mention Howard's diligence follow through this development and his tireless testing on our brake system.
We also like to thank all the members who placed their pre-orders with us.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...8&postcount=17
In general our COF (Coefficient of Friction) of different compounds are pretty much the same if they are running on street. However they would hold up at different temperature level - the higher the compound the higher temperature limit under which the coefficient can maintain except for ET900 which is a dedicated race pad and is more aggressive and would exhibit its high deceleration rate and torque only if it’s running above its minimal temperature. (300 deg F).
If you are not too sure for now our suggestion is to install the ET500 to start with, then step up to higher compound as you need it.
We are receiving the components this and early next week and will start building the kits next week so we shall start shipping the pre-orders around 7/15.
Four pre-orders will be short shipped, since the order is to be filled on first come first serve basis therefore for order number earlier and including #2349 will be filled. Order #2340 and higher can only be filled in another two weeks or so. We apologize for the inconvenience for the back orders.
We are thankful to the support and patience from all the members and those who have contributed their reviews on our two piece rotors and GooRoo's thorough brake system reviews not mention Howard's diligence follow through this development and his tireless testing on our brake system.
We also like to thank all the members who placed their pre-orders with us.
07-06-07, 12:17 PM
#708
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 15143
Posts: 859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks quite similar to GooRoo's BBK, based on slightly rough numbers.
The Porsche calipers have 12% more piston area than the APs, so the APs should be more rear-biased. But a funny thing happens on the way to threshold: the stock proportioning valve gets in the way. Because the APs have less area, you'll have to push harder on the pedal to achieve the same braking. The PV promptly bleeds off more rear line pressure, and the two systems have almost identical front-rear balance.
The Porsche calipers have 12% more piston area than the APs, so the APs should be more rear-biased. But a funny thing happens on the way to threshold: the stock proportioning valve gets in the way. Because the APs have less area, you'll have to push harder on the pedal to achieve the same braking. The PV promptly bleeds off more rear line pressure, and the two systems have almost identical front-rear balance.
07-06-07, 01:43 PM
#710
Eye In The Sky
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In A Disfunctional World
Posts: 7,897
Likes: 0
Received 118 Likes
on
68 Posts
By your reasoning, tire/wheel and suspension upgrades are only needed for the track. Then you can also say the same for more power.
07-06-07, 01:46 PM
#711
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fort Rucker, Alabama
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With all the good reviews of the ET800's, I switched my order from ET500's to the 800's. Not having to switch pads between track and street sounds too good to pass up. The Z06 guys are saying they squeek very little.
07-07-07, 07:10 AM
#713
Full Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having been involved in testing both the Porsche Big Reds (which btw, I don't think GooRoo has, I could be wrong but I think he has the Blacks) and the M2 AP kit, the APs outperformed the Big Reds. The pedal feel was much improved (i.e., better feedback & threshold response, clamping force was improved (as witnessed by ABS feedback), the required pedal effort was better, the improvement in unsprung weight (largely as a result of the rotors rather than calipers) was an improvement. At the end of the day the APs were a better fit for that car's setup.
Performance should not be measured by design statistics alone, real world observation trumps lab work every day.
Performance should not be measured by design statistics alone, real world observation trumps lab work every day.
Looks quite similar to GooRoo's BBK, based on slightly rough numbers.
The Porsche calipers have 12% more piston area than the APs, so the APs should be more rear-biased. But a funny thing happens on the way to threshold: the stock proportioning valve gets in the way. Because the APs have less area, you'll have to push harder on the pedal to achieve the same braking. The PV promptly bleeds off more rear line pressure, and the two systems have almost identical front-rear balance.
The Porsche calipers have 12% more piston area than the APs, so the APs should be more rear-biased. But a funny thing happens on the way to threshold: the stock proportioning valve gets in the way. Because the APs have less area, you'll have to push harder on the pedal to achieve the same braking. The PV promptly bleeds off more rear line pressure, and the two systems have almost identical front-rear balance.
07-07-07, 07:21 AM
#714
Full Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those who are interested in learning more about RB’s compounds (before Howard’s more test on track) Here is a review just being posted at Corvette forums:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...8&postcount=17
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...8&postcount=17
Look, I appreciate the opportunity to read as much anecdotal evidence regarding these brakes and the pads as much as the next guy. I just suggest those trying to make informed decisions consider the source of the info.
07-07-07, 07:52 AM
#715
Full Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I think we can all assume these are viable for street use, since the stock set-up is fine for 99% of street applications. The real reason for a 4 wheel upgrade is for track use."
Do you think it is more than remotely possible that someone who only drives on the street would upgrade from stock brakes to the RB 4 wheel BBK and be disappointed with the performance characteristics of the system? I don't. However, I could imagine a case where a track rat upgrades his existing BBK setup and is disappointed with the on-track performance of the RB setup. I don't expect this to be the case, I certainly hope it isn't as I'm in on the pre-order, but it is infinately more likely than the prior scenario.
There are a number of existing BBK options available to us, I, and many others, are looking toward these brakes as an improvement over the existing offerings for track use. I couldn't imagine someone who drives on the street scratching his head saying "jeez my Stoptechs work pretty good but I really wish there was a better setup available providing: improved fr/rr balance, fade resistance; enhanced trail braking capability; improved pad/rotor life; lower weight; etc, for similar dough."
The true benefit of HC & RBs efforts will be fleshed-out in on-track performance. Not the incremental benefit one achieves in on-street braking performance.
07-07-07, 10:35 PM
#716
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 15143
Posts: 859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-08-07, 10:55 AM
#717
order number earlier and including #2349 will be filled. Order #2340 and higher can only be filled in another two weeks or so
Thanks also for all those submitting reviews of their various setups.
-Chris
07-10-07, 12:32 PM
#718
Ok, I'll answer a few questions that directly relate to the RB/Brake setup to keep this on-topic, the rest of you guys I can PM.
The front setup I got from Damian is indeed the Porsche 'Big Red' setup. The real 'Big Red' setup off the front of a 993 TT. If anyone is interested, the calipers are just over 8 lbs, the brackets are half a pound each, and the custom full floating/aluminum hat Coleman (no relation to howard
) rotors are about 16 lbs each. They are essentially the exact same weight as the Stoptech 13" rotors that Damian switched to. The rotor is also 322mm in diameter and the annulus is 2.375" and the width is 1.25" and they have a curved fin design.
Yes they're yellow because Damian has a yellow fetish Jim.
Also, I was back at the track this weekend, so I have more results.
I didn't do *any* maintenance at all between events on the brakes. There was just no need. I ran another 8 sessions, some up to 25 minutes long, and had no pad or fluid fade, no abnormal pad or rotor wear, and no other brake issues. I logged 170ish miles on track for a two week total of just over 300 miles. (130 laps at MAM) Maximum decel g's were essentially unchanged from the previous week, even though it was touching 100 degrees ambient temp, so the tires are still working well.
I would expect my front and rear pads to last another 2-3 events at least, which is another victory for me. Damian rode with me a session and really liked the braking as well, so I think I might have sold another kit here soon too.
I have 5 more track days scheduled in the next month, so I will continue to post track results.
Thanks for the compliments all.
The front setup I got from Damian is indeed the Porsche 'Big Red' setup. The real 'Big Red' setup off the front of a 993 TT. If anyone is interested, the calipers are just over 8 lbs, the brackets are half a pound each, and the custom full floating/aluminum hat Coleman (no relation to howard
) rotors are about 16 lbs each. They are essentially the exact same weight as the Stoptech 13" rotors that Damian switched to. The rotor is also 322mm in diameter and the annulus is 2.375" and the width is 1.25" and they have a curved fin design.Yes they're yellow because Damian has a yellow fetish Jim.
Also, I was back at the track this weekend, so I have more results.
I didn't do *any* maintenance at all between events on the brakes. There was just no need. I ran another 8 sessions, some up to 25 minutes long, and had no pad or fluid fade, no abnormal pad or rotor wear, and no other brake issues. I logged 170ish miles on track for a two week total of just over 300 miles. (130 laps at MAM) Maximum decel g's were essentially unchanged from the previous week, even though it was touching 100 degrees ambient temp, so the tires are still working well.
I would expect my front and rear pads to last another 2-3 events at least, which is another victory for me. Damian rode with me a session and really liked the braking as well, so I think I might have sold another kit here soon too.
I have 5 more track days scheduled in the next month, so I will continue to post track results.
Thanks for the compliments all.
07-11-07, 09:24 AM
#719
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
since it is approx shipping time here's some installation notes... anyone wishing to add/comment is certainly welcome.
Installation notes:
Installation of the RB brake system is an easy task. (you CAN do it) Here are a few pointers that might be of help…
W car up on jack stands or a lift remove all four tires. Starting at the rear w a 14 mm wrench slightly loosen the banjo bolt at the OEM caliper. (If you loosen too much it will leak brake fluid)
ideally, using a 10 mm brake fitting wrench loosen the inboard brake line fitting. The brake wrench isn’t a requirement but if you don’t have one be careful not to round the brake fitting.
Using a large flat bladed screwdriver lever the brake line fitting clip off.
Use a 17 mm wrench remove lower caliper to caliper mounting bracket bolt. Loosen upper bolt. Pivot caliper from the bottom upward so you can remove the pads.
Using a mazda special tool,
screw (clockwise) the piston back into the caliper body until it is flush. (you may be able to purchase an inexpensive universal tool that will fit at your autoparts store. in a pinch, if you have a really good needle nose pliers you may be able to back the piston into it's bore.
With pads out and piston flush remove the top caliper mounting bolt.
Note there is a top and bottom bolt. The bottom has a rubber snubber on the end. Clean these bolts and lube w grease to promote the caliper movement.
Set caliper aside. Using a 14 mm wrench remove caliper mounting bracket bolts. Remove bracket. Discard OEM shim that is between bracket and upright.
Remove brake backing plate. Since the RB rotor is larger and draws air from inboard and outboard, unlike OEM, the backing plate greatly decreases cooling. I believe there are 3 12mm bolts and you may need a hacksaw. (not a big job but important).
Off w the old rotor and on w the new.
Switch the rubber caliper guide pin protectors from the old caliper mounting bracket to the new one. Carefully. They are important.
Likewise, switch the 4 (per caliper mounting bracket) pad guide clips to the new caliper mounting bracket. NOTE they differ top and bottom… exercise patience.
remount the new RB caliper mounting bracket. (I painted mine silver along w my caliper). Torque the caliper mounting bracket to 45 pounds. Insert RB rear pads. ( I am not running the OEM brakepad backing plates…. You may do as you wish… input welcome on this).
If you have any problem getting the pads in the bracket make sure the rotor is solidly up against the hub. Take your time, the pads will go in easily if properly aligned.
place caliper over the pads and line up w caliper mounting bracket…. You will need to realign the rubber pin protectors so when you slide the caliper to caliper mounting bracket pins/bolts in the line up thru the rubber. Don’t force here, just grab a screwdriver and fiddle w the rubber deals til they align properly.
Make sure you put the correct caliper mounting pin/bolt in the correct hole! The top bolt is marked “G.” the bottom bolt has a rubber snubber and is marked “L.” they must have been cleaned and lubed w grease. Torque is 55 pounds.
Now let’s do the brake lines…. Put a pan under the corner and remove the OEM line. Before you start to install the RB line note the fitting in the middle of the line…. Note it is a hex fitting BUT one of the points is ROUNDED. This indexes the fitting to the tab on your FD. It only goes one way.
Therefore, the first step is to slide the brake line thru the slot in the tab and rotate it until the rounded point finds it’s proper index. ONLY THEN will it slide deeply into the receptacle so you can reinstall the CLIP. Do this now. Reinstall clip.
Next connect both ends, making sure to use the 2 copper washers on each side of the caliper banjo bolt fitting. do the caliper end first to align the banjo bolt angle properly. Spend some time and take care connecting the inboard side of the lines….
On to the front…
Loosen all brake line fittings as in the rear.
Remove caliper mounting bolts. Remove caliper. Remove brake pads. Remove caliper mounting bracket. Using a driver tool remove the Phillips head screws holding the rotor on. (tool avail at your local autoparts store). Use a big hammer… I used some heat too. This could be the most frustrating part of the install so exercise patience.
remove rotor.
Remove front backing plate… hacksaw. 5 minutes tops. Necessary.
Install caliper mounting bracket. I recommend you grab a Nicholson 12 inch Bastard file and spend no more that 5 minutes tops filing the outboard side of the upright casting as it might/could contact the inside edge of the rotor. You do not have to file much…. Just on a RADIUS from the center of the rotor out thru the raised area. Maybe a tenth of an inch. Not the whole area, just the area on a radius. You can eyeball this by putting the rotor on and looking. Both the top and bottom caliper mounting bolt areas need attention. 5 minutes tops. I did this and have NO contact whatsoever.
The plus here is that RB maximized the rotor size PERFECTLY. All you have to do is a tiny bit of filing and you get to run a 1.26 inch thick manly rotor.
Along these lines you will note that the steering arm is close to the rotor. I took a 7 inch strip of fiberglass header insulation and covered the ball joint and held it w a tie wrap. Optional.
Bolt on the caliper mounting bracket. 65 pounds torque.
mount rotor. mount caliper. Torque caliper to caliper mounting bracket bolts to 30 pounds. You will need a 10mm hex socket. Or a 3/8 will do… Holding rotor to hub, slide in pads. Place chrome spring retainer against pads. Place thru bolt tube in channel. Install thru bolt (you will need to push thru bolt tube towards wheel center a bit to line it up w hole. You need a 6 MM hex drive… Apply modest torque (any help here appreciated).
The front brake line install is exactly the same as rear…. Don’t forget to index.
Brake bleeding…
Unless you are contemplating running under the lap record at your favorite track I recommend any DOT 4 brake fluid. Buy a couple of quarts. You want to get all of the old fluid out.
Bleed the longest lines first. The order would be right rear, left rear, right front, left front. (unless you have a right hand drive of course)….
I use a MiteyVac to initially get the old fluid out and then strongly suggest you have a friend pump 4 or 5 solid strokes on the pedal and hold w your bleeder valve closed…. Then open it slowly. You need a 10 mm box wrench, some clear plastic tubing (1/4 inch I D I think) and a milk jug or something similar. Bleed inboard first and outboard second on the front.
Make sure as you bleed that the master brake reservoir is always near full. If you run dry you start over….. also, keep the lid on it as it can overspray the fluid if you are hard on the pedal.
Once you have a hard pedal….. go for a drive. You will need to cycle your brakes a number of times… both the pads and rotors need break-in. I found a noticeable amount of increased performance as I added miles.
Any additional comments re install are welcome…
Enjoy,
howard coleman
Installation notes:
Installation of the RB brake system is an easy task. (you CAN do it) Here are a few pointers that might be of help…
W car up on jack stands or a lift remove all four tires. Starting at the rear w a 14 mm wrench slightly loosen the banjo bolt at the OEM caliper. (If you loosen too much it will leak brake fluid)
ideally, using a 10 mm brake fitting wrench loosen the inboard brake line fitting. The brake wrench isn’t a requirement but if you don’t have one be careful not to round the brake fitting.
Using a large flat bladed screwdriver lever the brake line fitting clip off.
Use a 17 mm wrench remove lower caliper to caliper mounting bracket bolt. Loosen upper bolt. Pivot caliper from the bottom upward so you can remove the pads.
Using a mazda special tool,
screw (clockwise) the piston back into the caliper body until it is flush. (you may be able to purchase an inexpensive universal tool that will fit at your autoparts store. in a pinch, if you have a really good needle nose pliers you may be able to back the piston into it's bore.
With pads out and piston flush remove the top caliper mounting bolt.
Note there is a top and bottom bolt. The bottom has a rubber snubber on the end. Clean these bolts and lube w grease to promote the caliper movement.
Set caliper aside. Using a 14 mm wrench remove caliper mounting bracket bolts. Remove bracket. Discard OEM shim that is between bracket and upright.
Remove brake backing plate. Since the RB rotor is larger and draws air from inboard and outboard, unlike OEM, the backing plate greatly decreases cooling. I believe there are 3 12mm bolts and you may need a hacksaw. (not a big job but important).
Off w the old rotor and on w the new.
Switch the rubber caliper guide pin protectors from the old caliper mounting bracket to the new one. Carefully. They are important.
Likewise, switch the 4 (per caliper mounting bracket) pad guide clips to the new caliper mounting bracket. NOTE they differ top and bottom… exercise patience.
remount the new RB caliper mounting bracket. (I painted mine silver along w my caliper). Torque the caliper mounting bracket to 45 pounds. Insert RB rear pads. ( I am not running the OEM brakepad backing plates…. You may do as you wish… input welcome on this).
If you have any problem getting the pads in the bracket make sure the rotor is solidly up against the hub. Take your time, the pads will go in easily if properly aligned.
place caliper over the pads and line up w caliper mounting bracket…. You will need to realign the rubber pin protectors so when you slide the caliper to caliper mounting bracket pins/bolts in the line up thru the rubber. Don’t force here, just grab a screwdriver and fiddle w the rubber deals til they align properly.
Make sure you put the correct caliper mounting pin/bolt in the correct hole! The top bolt is marked “G.” the bottom bolt has a rubber snubber and is marked “L.” they must have been cleaned and lubed w grease. Torque is 55 pounds.
Now let’s do the brake lines…. Put a pan under the corner and remove the OEM line. Before you start to install the RB line note the fitting in the middle of the line…. Note it is a hex fitting BUT one of the points is ROUNDED. This indexes the fitting to the tab on your FD. It only goes one way.
Therefore, the first step is to slide the brake line thru the slot in the tab and rotate it until the rounded point finds it’s proper index. ONLY THEN will it slide deeply into the receptacle so you can reinstall the CLIP. Do this now. Reinstall clip.
Next connect both ends, making sure to use the 2 copper washers on each side of the caliper banjo bolt fitting. do the caliper end first to align the banjo bolt angle properly. Spend some time and take care connecting the inboard side of the lines….
On to the front…
Loosen all brake line fittings as in the rear.
Remove caliper mounting bolts. Remove caliper. Remove brake pads. Remove caliper mounting bracket. Using a driver tool remove the Phillips head screws holding the rotor on. (tool avail at your local autoparts store). Use a big hammer… I used some heat too. This could be the most frustrating part of the install so exercise patience.
remove rotor.
Remove front backing plate… hacksaw. 5 minutes tops. Necessary.
Install caliper mounting bracket. I recommend you grab a Nicholson 12 inch Bastard file and spend no more that 5 minutes tops filing the outboard side of the upright casting as it might/could contact the inside edge of the rotor. You do not have to file much…. Just on a RADIUS from the center of the rotor out thru the raised area. Maybe a tenth of an inch. Not the whole area, just the area on a radius. You can eyeball this by putting the rotor on and looking. Both the top and bottom caliper mounting bolt areas need attention. 5 minutes tops. I did this and have NO contact whatsoever.
The plus here is that RB maximized the rotor size PERFECTLY. All you have to do is a tiny bit of filing and you get to run a 1.26 inch thick manly rotor.
Along these lines you will note that the steering arm is close to the rotor. I took a 7 inch strip of fiberglass header insulation and covered the ball joint and held it w a tie wrap. Optional.
Bolt on the caliper mounting bracket. 65 pounds torque.
mount rotor. mount caliper. Torque caliper to caliper mounting bracket bolts to 30 pounds. You will need a 10mm hex socket. Or a 3/8 will do… Holding rotor to hub, slide in pads. Place chrome spring retainer against pads. Place thru bolt tube in channel. Install thru bolt (you will need to push thru bolt tube towards wheel center a bit to line it up w hole. You need a 6 MM hex drive… Apply modest torque (any help here appreciated).
The front brake line install is exactly the same as rear…. Don’t forget to index.
Brake bleeding…
Unless you are contemplating running under the lap record at your favorite track I recommend any DOT 4 brake fluid. Buy a couple of quarts. You want to get all of the old fluid out.
Bleed the longest lines first. The order would be right rear, left rear, right front, left front. (unless you have a right hand drive of course)….
I use a MiteyVac to initially get the old fluid out and then strongly suggest you have a friend pump 4 or 5 solid strokes on the pedal and hold w your bleeder valve closed…. Then open it slowly. You need a 10 mm box wrench, some clear plastic tubing (1/4 inch I D I think) and a milk jug or something similar. Bleed inboard first and outboard second on the front.
Make sure as you bleed that the master brake reservoir is always near full. If you run dry you start over….. also, keep the lid on it as it can overspray the fluid if you are hard on the pedal.
Once you have a hard pedal….. go for a drive. You will need to cycle your brakes a number of times… both the pads and rotors need break-in. I found a noticeable amount of increased performance as I added miles.
Any additional comments re install are welcome…
Enjoy,
howard coleman
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 07-11-07 at 09:42 AM.
07-12-07, 08:32 PM
#720
Full Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-12-07, 09:55 PM
#721
I PMd him and he mentioned he is going on the dyno this weekend and should be at Blackhawk Farms next week to punish the brakes. Supposedly that track is very hard on brakes.
We are all eagerly awaiting feedback. I want as close to perfection with the brakes as possible as well.
We are all eagerly awaiting feedback. I want as close to perfection with the brakes as possible as well.
07-13-07, 05:21 AM
#723
Full Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I PMd him and he mentioned he is going on the dyno this weekend and should be at Blackhawk Farms next week to punish the brakes. Supposedly that track is very hard on brakes.
We are all eagerly awaiting feedback. I want as close to perfection with the brakes as possible as well.
We are all eagerly awaiting feedback. I want as close to perfection with the brakes as possible as well.
07-13-07, 06:28 AM
#724
07-13-07, 08:16 AM
#725
I got a universal one at an auto parts store (its essentially a cube with different fork shapes on each side) that plugs onto a 3/8" ratchet... I put it on an extra 5" extension, and heep it in my brake pad box along with that socket for the slider bolt, and an allen wrench for my fronts.