FC New Brake Development
03-07-08, 12:48 PM
#1
FC New Brake Development
Here's an exceprt of a quote from the FD New Brake Options thread where howard coleman goes into detail about the ins and outs of Racing Brake:
Now, I've been trying to contact them for awhile to see if they would develop brakes for our beloved FC's. I finally spoke to him today and he seems interested, but he needs YOUR opinion on what you want for the FC. I started a thread on the RacingBrake forum and it would do the community a lot of good if whoever is interested decided to post up exactly what they want from Racing Brake.
Here's the thread at RBforums:
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=213
Please contribute, and hopefully, this can pave the way for some better brake options!
In the meantime I had stumbled across a very nice site that seemed to offer (they all “seem” to offer) the possibility of a custom piece. They ask you to post to a New Product Development part of their forum… so I did and sort of forgot about it.
Until they posted dimensional drawings and a CAD picture. And it looked like no other rotor I had ever seen before.
All that was two weeks ago. I have subsequently spent lots of telephone time w Warren Lin, President of RacingBrake. He is 60, an engineer w a distinguished career and decided he had some ideas about making great(er) brakes so instead of retiring w a comfortable life ahead he did what any red blooded person would do: he started a new company.
Result? 3 major pending patents and brakes that set the mark as to performance.
While I thought I was pretty dialed as to brake engineering I have learned a lot from Warren.
My understanding as to brake upgrade was that rotor mass was where it’s at.
Not necessarily.
Warren contends that it is as much about rotor material ( I thought they all looked/were the same) and rotor design as mass.
Racetrack results tend to be supportive.
In order to produce the rotors he wanted, Warren had to start w a clean sheet of paper. RacingBrake does it all from scratch and therefore controls all aspects of the design and manufacture. Even the fasteners are proprietary …
The sole purpose is performance, after all, the name of the company is RacingBrake.
Let’s get into rotor tech.
Rotor material may be one of the single-most important, yet least appreciated, performance determinants.
It all looks the same!
Many rotors produced for the “high performance” market are bought as blanks and then drilled, slotted and machined. Often, the material is not even up to OEM spec..
RacingBreak does not buy blanks.
RB knows material engineering pays performance dividends and has created it’s own array of proprietary scratch engineered alloyed rotor materials, each to suit a particular high performance/race use.
Proprietary material along w a special heat treating process to stress relieve and promote thermal stability is the building block upon which the following break-thru designs are based.
The other design aspects may appear more sexy but do not discount the advantage of a purpose built foundation.
Generally when we think brake upgrades we think of a two piece rotor. Since the hub is generally made from aluminum there often is a 12-16% weight reduction in the assembly despite there being more rotor ring frictional mass. Win, win.
The rotor ring is bolted to the aluminum hub. If you will look carefully at most two piece rotor assemblies you will see that the rotor attaching tabs are a cast surface that is in the same lateral plane as either the outer or inner frictional surface.
Warren felt that the mounting function should not key off of one of the two frictional surfaces as it would lead to uneven heat dissipation as well as unequal brake torque stress transfer. The surface with the mount tabs would run cooler than the other surface. Since all of the braking torque is transmitted thru the rotor ring mount to hub the Center Mount transmits this torque evenly between the outer and inner frictional surface thus eliminating the standard mount mismatch stress.
Another major benefit of the center mount is airflow. Think of the inner ring of your rotor as the air intake and the outer ring as the exhaust. Compare air intakes.
I did. Here’s what I found from an inspection of my M2 setup:
My aluminum rotor mounting hub/hat bolts to the outside frictional rotor surface. There are NO air intake holes, it is sealed! The inner rotor intake is effectively sealed w the inner brake dust shield! Yes, there is a small scoop but for most of the open area the shield functions to exclude cooling intake air.
Contrast this w the virtually unobstructed air intake provided by the Center Mount design…
Bigtime air intake versus mainly obstructed intake. T25 V GT42.
The Center Mount has a patent pending.
Warren talks rotors and AIRFLOW, sort of like we do w turbos.
So now that Warren has the air intake nailed he addressed getting it through the rotor to maximize cooling.
End result is: the Convergent Vane, patent pending.
Of course most of our rotors have cooling vanes. Beyond that I really didn’t give the subject much thought. I knew there were straight vanes and curved vanes.
I didn’t know, for example that on most curved vaned rotors the vane runs the wrong direction on one side of the car. That’s because in order to have them running correctly two molds must be made and more inventory must be stocked. It is both humorous and sad to learn that in many instances the vanes are only cast one way but the slots or holes are drilled to give the illusion that there are a right and a left!
Of course RB does it correctly by casting a true right and left thus achieving maximum airflow.
We have opened up the intake w the Center Mount design, now let’s talk airflow through the rotor:
Warren talks of rotors as they were a kitchen sink.
The heat enters the sink like water through the faucet. The sink is of a particular size, just like a specific rotor mass. Whether the sink overflows in the medium term relates greatly to the inflow thru the facet versus the drain flow.
Warren has spent lots of time on the drain. If you can effectively increase the drain-flow you can keep the sink from overflowing.
Starting w the most basic aspect of vanes:
The inner ring (air intake area) is smaller than the outer diameter (exhaust).
Rotors run hotter towards the outside edge. In addition to lowering the overall rotor temperature Warren’s Convergent Vane design is engineered to solve this problem. His Convergent design employs 36 inner vanes and 54 outer vanes.
Finally there is the full floating aspect of Warrens design…
Cast Iron and Aluminum, perhaps two materials couldn’t be much different. Cast iron absorbs and holds heat. Aluminum conveys heat.
Now we are going to bolt them together? Enter the floating rotor in the hub concept.
As the rotor gets hot, maybe 1300 degrees, it is going to expand but not at the same rate as the aluminum hat.
The capper to all this is that they have shown a great interest is SOLUTIONS relating to specific cars.
For instance they have cast a caliper mounting bracket for the rear of the 350Z so as to relocate the rear OEM single piston emergency braked caliper to fit a larger disc. I don’t know of a company that has done that.
Warren is really big on simple solutions. Instead of 6 piston this and that as the immediate solution he has redesigned our stock sized rotors so they work as bigger rotors. There may be no need to relocate calipers to get what we want. If there is a need for a larger rotor he does the front and rear so they balance using the stock ABS master cylinder.
here's an RX8 RB corner:
my purpose is to raise awareness upon the proper occasion of new products that might upgrade our cars. i am not commercially affiliated w RB. i will be buying their rotors for my FD no matter what rear calipers i decide upon. i will be selling my M2 rotors and caliper mounting brackets when i get around to it.
BTW, i believe Rishie represents RB so you might contact him if you wish to purchase.
respectfully submitted FYI,
howard coleman
Until they posted dimensional drawings and a CAD picture. And it looked like no other rotor I had ever seen before.
All that was two weeks ago. I have subsequently spent lots of telephone time w Warren Lin, President of RacingBrake. He is 60, an engineer w a distinguished career and decided he had some ideas about making great(er) brakes so instead of retiring w a comfortable life ahead he did what any red blooded person would do: he started a new company.
Result? 3 major pending patents and brakes that set the mark as to performance.
While I thought I was pretty dialed as to brake engineering I have learned a lot from Warren.
My understanding as to brake upgrade was that rotor mass was where it’s at.
Not necessarily.
Warren contends that it is as much about rotor material ( I thought they all looked/were the same) and rotor design as mass.
Racetrack results tend to be supportive.
In order to produce the rotors he wanted, Warren had to start w a clean sheet of paper. RacingBrake does it all from scratch and therefore controls all aspects of the design and manufacture. Even the fasteners are proprietary …
The sole purpose is performance, after all, the name of the company is RacingBrake.
Let’s get into rotor tech.
Rotor material may be one of the single-most important, yet least appreciated, performance determinants.
It all looks the same!
Many rotors produced for the “high performance” market are bought as blanks and then drilled, slotted and machined. Often, the material is not even up to OEM spec..
RacingBreak does not buy blanks.
RB knows material engineering pays performance dividends and has created it’s own array of proprietary scratch engineered alloyed rotor materials, each to suit a particular high performance/race use.
Proprietary material along w a special heat treating process to stress relieve and promote thermal stability is the building block upon which the following break-thru designs are based.
The other design aspects may appear more sexy but do not discount the advantage of a purpose built foundation.
Generally when we think brake upgrades we think of a two piece rotor. Since the hub is generally made from aluminum there often is a 12-16% weight reduction in the assembly despite there being more rotor ring frictional mass. Win, win.
The rotor ring is bolted to the aluminum hub. If you will look carefully at most two piece rotor assemblies you will see that the rotor attaching tabs are a cast surface that is in the same lateral plane as either the outer or inner frictional surface.
Warren felt that the mounting function should not key off of one of the two frictional surfaces as it would lead to uneven heat dissipation as well as unequal brake torque stress transfer. The surface with the mount tabs would run cooler than the other surface. Since all of the braking torque is transmitted thru the rotor ring mount to hub the Center Mount transmits this torque evenly between the outer and inner frictional surface thus eliminating the standard mount mismatch stress.
Another major benefit of the center mount is airflow. Think of the inner ring of your rotor as the air intake and the outer ring as the exhaust. Compare air intakes.
I did. Here’s what I found from an inspection of my M2 setup:
My aluminum rotor mounting hub/hat bolts to the outside frictional rotor surface. There are NO air intake holes, it is sealed! The inner rotor intake is effectively sealed w the inner brake dust shield! Yes, there is a small scoop but for most of the open area the shield functions to exclude cooling intake air.
Contrast this w the virtually unobstructed air intake provided by the Center Mount design…
Bigtime air intake versus mainly obstructed intake. T25 V GT42.
The Center Mount has a patent pending.
Warren talks rotors and AIRFLOW, sort of like we do w turbos.
So now that Warren has the air intake nailed he addressed getting it through the rotor to maximize cooling.
End result is: the Convergent Vane, patent pending.
Of course most of our rotors have cooling vanes. Beyond that I really didn’t give the subject much thought. I knew there were straight vanes and curved vanes.
I didn’t know, for example that on most curved vaned rotors the vane runs the wrong direction on one side of the car. That’s because in order to have them running correctly two molds must be made and more inventory must be stocked. It is both humorous and sad to learn that in many instances the vanes are only cast one way but the slots or holes are drilled to give the illusion that there are a right and a left!
Of course RB does it correctly by casting a true right and left thus achieving maximum airflow.
We have opened up the intake w the Center Mount design, now let’s talk airflow through the rotor:
Warren talks of rotors as they were a kitchen sink.
The heat enters the sink like water through the faucet. The sink is of a particular size, just like a specific rotor mass. Whether the sink overflows in the medium term relates greatly to the inflow thru the facet versus the drain flow.
Warren has spent lots of time on the drain. If you can effectively increase the drain-flow you can keep the sink from overflowing.
Starting w the most basic aspect of vanes:
The inner ring (air intake area) is smaller than the outer diameter (exhaust).
Rotors run hotter towards the outside edge. In addition to lowering the overall rotor temperature Warren’s Convergent Vane design is engineered to solve this problem. His Convergent design employs 36 inner vanes and 54 outer vanes.
Finally there is the full floating aspect of Warrens design…
Cast Iron and Aluminum, perhaps two materials couldn’t be much different. Cast iron absorbs and holds heat. Aluminum conveys heat.
Now we are going to bolt them together? Enter the floating rotor in the hub concept.
As the rotor gets hot, maybe 1300 degrees, it is going to expand but not at the same rate as the aluminum hat.
The capper to all this is that they have shown a great interest is SOLUTIONS relating to specific cars.
For instance they have cast a caliper mounting bracket for the rear of the 350Z so as to relocate the rear OEM single piston emergency braked caliper to fit a larger disc. I don’t know of a company that has done that.
Warren is really big on simple solutions. Instead of 6 piston this and that as the immediate solution he has redesigned our stock sized rotors so they work as bigger rotors. There may be no need to relocate calipers to get what we want. If there is a need for a larger rotor he does the front and rear so they balance using the stock ABS master cylinder.
here's an RX8 RB corner:
my purpose is to raise awareness upon the proper occasion of new products that might upgrade our cars. i am not commercially affiliated w RB. i will be buying their rotors for my FD no matter what rear calipers i decide upon. i will be selling my M2 rotors and caliper mounting brackets when i get around to it.
BTW, i believe Rishie represents RB so you might contact him if you wish to purchase.
respectfully submitted FYI,
howard coleman
Here's the thread at RBforums:
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=213
Please contribute, and hopefully, this can pave the way for some better brake options!
03-07-08, 12:49 PM
#2
More quotage:
How good are his brakes?
2 piece nsx rotors for oem calipers
I have just returned from an HSR race at Daytona and want to comment on this Racing Brake BBK setup as it seems my car was the test mule for this new kit. I logged over 4 hours and 300 miles of track time last weekend under RACE conditions and I can categorically say that this setup is fantastic! I installed this new kit myself in only a couple of hours for all four wheels and I was really impressed with the strength and manufacturing quality of both the brackets and the two-piece rotors. The factory two piston front and single rear calipers are more than up to the task with a strong solid pedal and zero fade! I was able to brake with just about any car out there save for the prototypes...i.e. Audi R8, Lola's, Riley & Scott..etc. I really have to thank Warren at Racingbrake as he has been great with all of help and support. I have the final race of the year in two weeks at Sebring and I can say that after the race weekend at Daytona that the brakes look ready for an entire full season still. Pad wear is great and the rotors show no wear or appearance of hairline cracks. Daytona is murder on a braking system as I have to slow from about 170 down to about 45 for turn one and I did this for over 85 laps last weekend.
Re: 2 piece nsx rotors for oem calipers
Ok I can only speak from my own experiences but what I can tell you is this...As long as a caliper has sufficient and even clamping forces without distortion or binding and it is able to hold a pad of a large enough surface material it will work just fine in all situations whether it be for racing, occasional track use or primarily for the street. The larger rotors are a definite step forward in performance to the smaller two piece rotors which I used before. The pads are the same so I do have a direct comparison. The larger rotor surface is able to dissipate heat better and distribute it over a greater surface area hence cooler brake temps. The kit also includes new brake lines which are extremely high quality as well. My brother races in my group with a Carrera RSR 3.0 liter with 996 Turbo brakes and 10" front and 12" rear slicks. I was right with him at all braking points and he is a semi pro driver with 25 years continous racing experience. In fact I outqualified him at Daytona and also beat him in the race ...for the very FIRST time...The new brakes gave me much needed confidence...and they really look great inside my 17" wheels!!!!!!!!!
I am indeed using the bigger rotors front and rear and have noticed no problems in brake bias and I still am using the factory ABS setup. I am using the original calipers on my 92 and yes they are slightly heavier than an aluminum caliper but they have been trouble free and I do use high temp grease after every race on the slide pins..a five minute job at most. One of the problems I have always noticed in my years of repairing, modifying and racing automobiles is that many people tend to overcomplicate things by replacing unnecessary parts. I like the look performance and PRICE of the original caliper..plus it has that great NSX logo already on it!
I agree, and I have posted before re the same. I have had over 15 track days on the very first set and I still have a few more track days left, this after turning them once. Hairline cracks are there but then they are expected after some 50 sessions on the same rotors.
Just an fyi, running cooler rotors has huge benefits. A few months ago I took my 96 RL to the track for the first time - as it was a rainy and cold day so I said I might as well since I committed to help. I was having great fun and laughing passing all the other "sports" cars on the track in my session While the joke amongst our local weekend boy racers is that I use my pyrometer too much, suffice it to say that the temps on my OEM front rotors were 800F on this cool and rainy day The rotors warped and the lifespan of the OEM pads were toast; good thing I had Valvoline brake fluid. The hottest I have gotten my RB rotors on the the track is 500F and that is 100F-150F cooler than the OEM rotors I used to run under the same settings/conditions/track.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80162
1st Place in Class 4 hours of Sebring!
Just wanted to let all of my fellow NSX'ers know that at last weekends final HSR race of the year at Sebring my 1992 NSX won first in class in the four hour enduro on Sunday! Other cars in my class include BMW M3 GTR's and Porsche Cup cars. Many thanks to Racing Brake for giving me the consistent and safe stopping power
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject:
Arnie, GOTO:Racing has been using RB rotors on all of our race cars with excellant results. Excellant brake performance and fantastic longevity. We recently ran one set of RB rotors for the entire 25 Hours of Thunderhill. While we had to change pads, the rotors not only went the entire race but they were still good enough to race the first sprint race of the year at Sears Point.
///////the above is both a the end of my post and perhaps the beginning of an FD relationship w RacingBrake. there is additional info on their site along w a forum where you are free to browse and pose questions. RB already is a known quantity at RX8club as Warren makes a full lineup for the car.
2 piece nsx rotors for oem calipers
I have just returned from an HSR race at Daytona and want to comment on this Racing Brake BBK setup as it seems my car was the test mule for this new kit. I logged over 4 hours and 300 miles of track time last weekend under RACE conditions and I can categorically say that this setup is fantastic! I installed this new kit myself in only a couple of hours for all four wheels and I was really impressed with the strength and manufacturing quality of both the brackets and the two-piece rotors. The factory two piston front and single rear calipers are more than up to the task with a strong solid pedal and zero fade! I was able to brake with just about any car out there save for the prototypes...i.e. Audi R8, Lola's, Riley & Scott..etc. I really have to thank Warren at Racingbrake as he has been great with all of help and support. I have the final race of the year in two weeks at Sebring and I can say that after the race weekend at Daytona that the brakes look ready for an entire full season still. Pad wear is great and the rotors show no wear or appearance of hairline cracks. Daytona is murder on a braking system as I have to slow from about 170 down to about 45 for turn one and I did this for over 85 laps last weekend.
Re: 2 piece nsx rotors for oem calipers
Ok I can only speak from my own experiences but what I can tell you is this...As long as a caliper has sufficient and even clamping forces without distortion or binding and it is able to hold a pad of a large enough surface material it will work just fine in all situations whether it be for racing, occasional track use or primarily for the street. The larger rotors are a definite step forward in performance to the smaller two piece rotors which I used before. The pads are the same so I do have a direct comparison. The larger rotor surface is able to dissipate heat better and distribute it over a greater surface area hence cooler brake temps. The kit also includes new brake lines which are extremely high quality as well. My brother races in my group with a Carrera RSR 3.0 liter with 996 Turbo brakes and 10" front and 12" rear slicks. I was right with him at all braking points and he is a semi pro driver with 25 years continous racing experience. In fact I outqualified him at Daytona and also beat him in the race ...for the very FIRST time...The new brakes gave me much needed confidence...and they really look great inside my 17" wheels!!!!!!!!!
I am indeed using the bigger rotors front and rear and have noticed no problems in brake bias and I still am using the factory ABS setup. I am using the original calipers on my 92 and yes they are slightly heavier than an aluminum caliper but they have been trouble free and I do use high temp grease after every race on the slide pins..a five minute job at most. One of the problems I have always noticed in my years of repairing, modifying and racing automobiles is that many people tend to overcomplicate things by replacing unnecessary parts. I like the look performance and PRICE of the original caliper..plus it has that great NSX logo already on it!
I agree, and I have posted before re the same. I have had over 15 track days on the very first set and I still have a few more track days left, this after turning them once. Hairline cracks are there but then they are expected after some 50 sessions on the same rotors.
Just an fyi, running cooler rotors has huge benefits. A few months ago I took my 96 RL to the track for the first time - as it was a rainy and cold day so I said I might as well since I committed to help. I was having great fun and laughing passing all the other "sports" cars on the track in my session While the joke amongst our local weekend boy racers is that I use my pyrometer too much, suffice it to say that the temps on my OEM front rotors were 800F on this cool and rainy day The rotors warped and the lifespan of the OEM pads were toast; good thing I had Valvoline brake fluid. The hottest I have gotten my RB rotors on the the track is 500F and that is 100F-150F cooler than the OEM rotors I used to run under the same settings/conditions/track.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80162
1st Place in Class 4 hours of Sebring!
Just wanted to let all of my fellow NSX'ers know that at last weekends final HSR race of the year at Sebring my 1992 NSX won first in class in the four hour enduro on Sunday! Other cars in my class include BMW M3 GTR's and Porsche Cup cars. Many thanks to Racing Brake for giving me the consistent and safe stopping power
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject:
Arnie, GOTO:Racing has been using RB rotors on all of our race cars with excellant results. Excellant brake performance and fantastic longevity. We recently ran one set of RB rotors for the entire 25 Hours of Thunderhill. While we had to change pads, the rotors not only went the entire race but they were still good enough to race the first sprint race of the year at Sears Point.
///////the above is both a the end of my post and perhaps the beginning of an FD relationship w RacingBrake. there is additional info on their site along w a forum where you are free to browse and pose questions. RB already is a known quantity at RX8club as Warren makes a full lineup for the car.
03-07-08, 05:08 PM
#3
Lives on the Forum
Well one thing I'd like to see is some decently priced 2 piece stock dimesion rotors that don't require any modifications like the AWR ones do (you have to modify the hub to fit into the hat and grind the bottom of the pads for clearance of the fasteners). This may not be possible.
Another thought would be to do a cheap BBK like the Mandeville one for FD's. Use the stock caliper spaced out with spacers in it to widen it to fit a wider disk. That could make it quite ecomomical.
Maybe do a hybrid of the first two, approximately stock diameter, but much wider to better cool, but still allow 15" race tires.
Maybe offer several sizes, since most FC owners won't need brakes as big as FD's (less front tire, less average power). Something that fits under 16" wheels would be good, maybe about 12-12.5".
All in all though, I don't think there's enough FC owners out there who are willing to spend the money on this to make it comercially viable. Racing classes are restrictive, and there's not that many FC's that see track duty outside of racing. Most street drivers will be content with drilled rotors and stock calipers painted red.
Another thought would be to do a cheap BBK like the Mandeville one for FD's. Use the stock caliper spaced out with spacers in it to widen it to fit a wider disk. That could make it quite ecomomical.
Maybe do a hybrid of the first two, approximately stock diameter, but much wider to better cool, but still allow 15" race tires.
Maybe offer several sizes, since most FC owners won't need brakes as big as FD's (less front tire, less average power). Something that fits under 16" wheels would be good, maybe about 12-12.5".
All in all though, I don't think there's enough FC owners out there who are willing to spend the money on this to make it comercially viable. Racing classes are restrictive, and there's not that many FC's that see track duty outside of racing. Most street drivers will be content with drilled rotors and stock calipers painted red.
03-08-08, 07:34 AM
#5
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Well one thing I'd like to see is some decently priced 2 piece stock dimesion rotors that don't require any modifications like the AWR ones do (you have to modify the hub to fit into the hat and grind the bottom of the pads for clearance of the fasteners). This may not be possible.
Another thought would be to do a cheap BBK like the Mandeville one for FD's. Use the stock caliper spaced out with spacers in it to widen it to fit a wider disk. That could make it quite ecomomical.
Maybe do a hybrid of the first two, approximately stock diameter, but much wider to better cool, but still allow 15" race tires.
Another thought would be to do a cheap BBK like the Mandeville one for FD's. Use the stock caliper spaced out with spacers in it to widen it to fit a wider disk. That could make it quite ecomomical.
Maybe do a hybrid of the first two, approximately stock diameter, but much wider to better cool, but still allow 15" race tires.
We should work Racing Brake to do a 2 piece direct bolt up that requires no mods. All the street cars would also buy them because 2 piece rotors "look cool". Just have to keep the cost in line, $500 for all 4 corners or less with replacement rotors at about $50/corner and they'd have a winner.
03-08-08, 01:49 PM
#6
So basically this just requires some minimums to make possible. i'm trying to work out details with RB to determine what would produce the most volume. As a manufacturer that's all they need to determine.
i've been requesting simple one piece rotors for the T2 to begin with. From there I'd start moving forward on the more expensive items. I've requested some baseline pricing to determine if it's a viable price point.
Rishie
i've been requesting simple one piece rotors for the T2 to begin with. From there I'd start moving forward on the more expensive items. I've requested some baseline pricing to determine if it's a viable price point.
Rishie
03-08-08, 03:41 PM
#7
Lives on the Forum
Personally I'd wonder about how much business they'd get from adding yet another fancy looking rotor to the market that's not much different from any of the other drilled and/or slotted rotors out there. There would probably be a larger potential market, but many will just get the cheap eBay ones and for most track users, either they won't want them due to cracking concerns, or they won't be allowed to run them due to the rules. I think that most people who are looking to buy this sort of rotor will just buy the cheapest ones they can find, and I wouldn't think that RB could match those prices.
I'd think that a direct bolt on 2 piece rotor would attract some of the street users away from cheap drilled rotors, and would get some of the people more concerned with performance and handling to buy them due to a real advantage in unsprung and rotating mass. I think with the AWR stuff, they don't sell much because they're not well known outside of racing, they're more expensive than what most people are willing to pay and those discs require modification of the hubs and of every single pad you'll ever use. If doing away with both isn't possible, I'd personally rather machine the hubs once (assuming strength isn't affected too much), than have to modify the pads every time.
I'd be very interested in a set of direct bolt on 2 piece rotors at around $500 for a set with $50 replacement discs.
I'd think that a direct bolt on 2 piece rotor would attract some of the street users away from cheap drilled rotors, and would get some of the people more concerned with performance and handling to buy them due to a real advantage in unsprung and rotating mass. I think with the AWR stuff, they don't sell much because they're not well known outside of racing, they're more expensive than what most people are willing to pay and those discs require modification of the hubs and of every single pad you'll ever use. If doing away with both isn't possible, I'd personally rather machine the hubs once (assuming strength isn't affected too much), than have to modify the pads every time.
I'd be very interested in a set of direct bolt on 2 piece rotors at around $500 for a set with $50 replacement discs.
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03-08-08, 03:51 PM
#8
I'd be satisfied with 2 piece rotors of a superior design. The spacing out of the caliper for a larger diameter rotor is also a good idea. Black91n/a pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Are there any plans for the rear rotors?
At 500 dollars a set and 50 dollars per replacement disk, this setup pays for itself over time!
Are there any plans for the rear rotors?
At 500 dollars a set and 50 dollars per replacement disk, this setup pays for itself over time!
03-08-08, 06:25 PM
#9
Lives on the Forum
The idea is that it's all 4 for about $500.
The key thing here is that whatever is made, it needs to be relatively inexpensive. A full on $2500 front only BBK is not likely to sell very well, but a $1000 kit that uses expanded, spaced out front calipers and larger diameter rear rotos with stock calipers and 2 piece rotors all around will sell much better.
I would warn against doing much for the rear though, as there's already a cheap option with Corksport's setup that mates FD RZ rear brakes ~$340). A 2 piece rotor for that would be nice to go with some BBK on the front.
The key thing here is that whatever is made, it needs to be relatively inexpensive. A full on $2500 front only BBK is not likely to sell very well, but a $1000 kit that uses expanded, spaced out front calipers and larger diameter rear rotos with stock calipers and 2 piece rotors all around will sell much better.
I would warn against doing much for the rear though, as there's already a cheap option with Corksport's setup that mates FD RZ rear brakes ~$340). A 2 piece rotor for that would be nice to go with some BBK on the front.
03-08-08, 08:32 PM
#10
If you look at the RB board, the projection for the two piece kit will be closer to 900 - 1000.
Still out of the reach of the normal FC owner, but it could be in the budget of NASA and E-prod drivers, especially if they'll last as long as Warren claims they will. If this does gets developed, at least we can compare between AWR and RB rotors.
If I do decide to go with the 4-pot brakes, I would use the RB 2-piece if they made it in time, if not, I would still go with the AWR ones.
I'm hoping any 2-piece rotor would work with both the front single piston and the front 4 pot calipers.
Does anyone know the dimension of the RZ rotors/Corksport Rear Big Brake Kit?
Still out of the reach of the normal FC owner, but it could be in the budget of NASA and E-prod drivers, especially if they'll last as long as Warren claims they will. If this does gets developed, at least we can compare between AWR and RB rotors.
If I do decide to go with the 4-pot brakes, I would use the RB 2-piece if they made it in time, if not, I would still go with the AWR ones.
I'm hoping any 2-piece rotor would work with both the front single piston and the front 4 pot calipers.
Does anyone know the dimension of the RZ rotors/Corksport Rear Big Brake Kit?
Last edited by Roen; 03-08-08 at 08:42 PM.
03-08-08, 10:53 PM
#11
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I figured as much, but one can always hope. At least if they can do it as a 100% bolt on kit then that'd give them a clear advantage over AWR. I'd expect that it's fit either front caliper, as the normal disc is the same.
I think the RZ rears are ~12.5".
I think the RZ rears are ~12.5".
03-09-08, 12:31 AM
#14
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https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/corksport-99spec-rear-brake-upgrade-429621/
It wouldn't surprise me entirely to find out that it's not possible to have a 2 piece rotor that doesn't require some sort of modifications because the friction surface on the rotors starts right at the base of the hat, so there's not a lot of room to work with there. Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.
It wouldn't surprise me entirely to find out that it's not possible to have a 2 piece rotor that doesn't require some sort of modifications because the friction surface on the rotors starts right at the base of the hat, so there's not a lot of room to work with there. Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.
03-10-08, 12:28 AM
#15
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That is a good point he made about the price comparison, I'm too used to thinking in terms of $100 sets of parts store plain rotors, where $1000 is 10x the price, but if you're buying $500 power slots, then that's only 2x the price.
As a price comparison, here's the current AWR prices as listed on their site:
All 4 rotors and hats, including hardware and instructions: $834
All 4 replacement rings: $344
They also offer the full set plus Hawk HP+ pads for $930, which is a $53 savings.
So the projected price ($900-1000) puts them above the existing AWR price and the potential initial discount of 20% would only just make it more economical, but then replacement rings might eat up that difference over time depending on where that price might end up. For me, I'd probably be more concerned about differences in the replacement ring cost than with differences in the kit price, since with hard track use you have to replace them reasonably often (I see a lot of track miles in my near future). It'd be nice for me to be able to reasonably afford an extra set of rings so that I can keep using a seperate set for the track, and if they're too expensive I'd probably just keep using $100 sets on track and tossing them each year or so, making the whole kit less attractive overall.
If I can save money on machine work compared to the AWR ones, then I'll gladly pay more for the rotors, and if I don't have to modify pads, then I'll gladly pay more for the rings. I'd say that for me I'll loose interest at about $1000 for the kit and at about $125 for the rings, assuming they're 100% bolt on. If they require similiar mods to the AWR ones, then they'll need to be cheaper for me to buy, or I'm going to support the longtime RX-7 racing supplier.
I'd say that unless it can be done better and/or cheaper then there's not much point, since there's already a workable option. This is not to discourage the effort, competition is good and I sincerely hope that it goes forward.
As a price comparison, here's the current AWR prices as listed on their site:
All 4 rotors and hats, including hardware and instructions: $834
All 4 replacement rings: $344
They also offer the full set plus Hawk HP+ pads for $930, which is a $53 savings.
So the projected price ($900-1000) puts them above the existing AWR price and the potential initial discount of 20% would only just make it more economical, but then replacement rings might eat up that difference over time depending on where that price might end up. For me, I'd probably be more concerned about differences in the replacement ring cost than with differences in the kit price, since with hard track use you have to replace them reasonably often (I see a lot of track miles in my near future). It'd be nice for me to be able to reasonably afford an extra set of rings so that I can keep using a seperate set for the track, and if they're too expensive I'd probably just keep using $100 sets on track and tossing them each year or so, making the whole kit less attractive overall.
If I can save money on machine work compared to the AWR ones, then I'll gladly pay more for the rotors, and if I don't have to modify pads, then I'll gladly pay more for the rings. I'd say that for me I'll loose interest at about $1000 for the kit and at about $125 for the rings, assuming they're 100% bolt on. If they require similiar mods to the AWR ones, then they'll need to be cheaper for me to buy, or I'm going to support the longtime RX-7 racing supplier.
I'd say that unless it can be done better and/or cheaper then there's not much point, since there's already a workable option. This is not to discourage the effort, competition is good and I sincerely hope that it goes forward.
03-10-08, 07:00 AM
#16
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I really want a true bolt on, high quality, 2 piece kit for the FC, not the off the shelf need to modify AWR one. The loss of unsprung weight is critical, the more weight this kit can drop the more it's worth.
If this doesn't go through or takes forever, what about modified one piece vented rotors? Can Racing Brake drill out part of the hat to lighten it? I've seen it done on EP cars. Any interest besides me in something like else? What amount of weight could be drilled out?
If this doesn't go through or takes forever, what about modified one piece vented rotors? Can Racing Brake drill out part of the hat to lighten it? I've seen it done on EP cars. Any interest besides me in something like else? What amount of weight could be drilled out?
03-10-08, 09:24 AM
#17
For quicker response, please post in the following link with your ideas/suggestions/concerns:
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=213
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=213
03-12-08, 09:28 AM
#19
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Yes, but I don't want to discourage him (unless it was to discourage a single piece in favor of a 2 piece), since I think a bunch of what I've been saying could be taken that way. I may post there soon with an edited version of what I've said here, to maybe make it sound more encouraging.
03-13-08, 11:43 AM
#20
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I'm well into development of a "Mandeville" style kit for the FC. It's actually going to be a 4 wheel kit so I can assure you maintain the proper brake bias.
Front rotors are 324 mm, Rears are 322. You can pick plain one piece or full floating two piece as you prefer.
I'm hoping to have the first prototype kits out in the next couple of weeks so I can do some track testing and ensure the design is correct (I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm not worried but it's still worth verifying).
I've even called and talked to Roger Mandeville, who wished me luck and blessed the endeavor.
Front:
Rear:
I can't price the thing unless I have a better handle on manufacturing costs but I wanted to let you know that it's coming.
Front rotors are 324 mm, Rears are 322. You can pick plain one piece or full floating two piece as you prefer.
I'm hoping to have the first prototype kits out in the next couple of weeks so I can do some track testing and ensure the design is correct (I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm not worried but it's still worth verifying).
I've even called and talked to Roger Mandeville, who wished me luck and blessed the endeavor.
Front:
Rear:
I can't price the thing unless I have a better handle on manufacturing costs but I wanted to let you know that it's coming.
03-13-08, 12:46 PM
#23
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NICE! I'm sure there's a few FC owners out there who'd be interested in that. Although I still think that an approximately stock diameter, but much wider rotor would also be a good way to go too, as lots of racers will be using 15's, and so will a number of track day drivers.
03-13-08, 03:36 PM
#24
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17s most likely, but I'm getting my old 16" T2 wheels back just to check if it'd work. I'll start a fresh thread as soon as I know more, just wanted to start tipping folks off that it's coming.
I'm aware of the fact you can do a lot with ducting and the smallest diameter wheels you can run are usually a good idea in road racing... However, I don't have nearly enough brakes on my car and this seemed like a fun little design challenge. I'm at ~3000 lbs s5, cage, extra sound deadening and ~400 rwhp.
Plus some folks want the bling.
I'm aware of the fact you can do a lot with ducting and the smallest diameter wheels you can run are usually a good idea in road racing... However, I don't have nearly enough brakes on my car and this seemed like a fun little design challenge. I'm at ~3000 lbs s5, cage, extra sound deadening and ~400 rwhp.
Plus some folks want the bling.