White_FC

Grr... RETed your too quick in replying.

RETed

Doh!  Sorry!  I'll stop for now!


-Ted

White_FC

Yeah thats right, give the noob's like myself some time to reply so we too can one day be higher up in the E-Society-pecking-order!

pontious

Got a few "fuzzy" questions.

I have never ridden in a fully tuned anything. My 86' RX-7 presumably has the stock springs/struts. It handles better than anything I have ever driven (Like I said, I have never been in a true sports car, so in a way i am lucky I guess, because I am mostly happy with my 7)

So could somebody in general terms describe how a better suspension (whatever type) would "feel" for normal (spirted) driving situation. Say passing, cornering, stopping, freeway driving. Normal everyday stuff for the most part.

Basically I am evaluating what to do next on my car. Suspension seems to be a place that may give me a more enjoyable car. Is there anybody in the Raleigh, NC area that has a "nice" setup that would like to demo it

apexhittinbull

iTrader: (21)

it's how and when do you want your Car to behave when simple brake-steer-gas is applied. can't tell which coilovers are better, but they do indeed are better than spring/shock combination, corner weighting is def, most recommended if you get serious enough. downside of having coilover, i have an apex-i coilover. As you can expect, back bone crushing ride aside, Car needs more input to reach its full potential.

with stock strut/spring, you can turn without understeer just with easy braking, do the same with hard front, car will understeer with same input, viceversa it rained here today - as i like, with stock setup, when throttled rear hooks relativley good as soft means more weight towards rear when gased. with coilover it's much much easier to induce oversteer.
but if you do time trial ,autocross, it's so heavenly, late late trail brake into, more stable and that slight *** out toward when gased. man, it' feels so good.

i had to choose an apex coilover for some reason, eventho i wanted to get rebound/compression ohlins rate of bounds/ and comp for traction sounds too atractive. of course ohlins cost good $3000 or much more. i checked around for long time before i got these, tri-point can make you double adjustable konis, which i think was just as expensive with good spring without rideheight adjstblity. my fd is all suspension no go.

Coilovers are worth the money if you are serious enough about driving. def, worth the money.

poor college student

isn't one of the other advantages of having coilovers is that u can use camber adjustment plates...? That's one of the reasons my friend wants coilovers... so he can run a lot more camber at the tracks.

7th Deadly Sin

i live in hawaii and our roads are the worst in the US, and trust me the worst, potholes here, unfinished work there, bumpy rides, im still buying me coilovers, if my drop springs feel like **** w/these roads, damn just imagine w/coilovers and i've ridden in cars w/coilovers and its bouncier yes but if it can handle these roads, im still choosing coilovers

JagdStealth

Coil-overs get really old in a daily driven car. At least good ones do.

There is no need for them unless you are using your car for some sort of track driving or extensive canyon fun.

SleepR1

I've been saying this for years--it's a complete waste of money to get FACOS for street--unless you know what the hell you're doing with setup.

I've opentracked since 1997. Suspension mods are light compared with powertrain mods: H&R springs, Eibach sway bars, Tri-Point front sway bar mount reinforcers. Shocks are stock Showa R1. Setup works great for open track, and public road driving.

apexhittinbull

iTrader: (21)

for FC, coilovers with upper mount would do make evil looking just out of option video looking front camber, case he wants. Give him a lot of rear toe out to finish the pkg.

Jaime Enriquez

I have actually never "eyeballed" my setups, on either car. I take the time and measure....and then measure again. Not just the spring perch height, but the height at the fender, at the axle/frame (if yours is not bent to **** that is) Many cars sit higher on one side to begin with so that also needs to be included in the measurements....also bette to put a person in the car so you get accurate ride height with load.

Are they overkill and unecessary? Sometimes...in cities with absolutely horrible streets, I would use standard performance springs/shocks.

I had to go to coil-overs for my Rx2 primarily due to a lack of other suspension upgrades, but the **** corners on rails, pisses off high-price exotic drivers when I dive under them at speed!

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

The idea that an aftermarket adjustable coilovers setup could be detrimental to handling compared to a standard spring/shock combo without precise setup equipment is assuming a little to much about schock/spring combos.

Sure you might set up your coilovers a little "off" without corner weighting equipments, but have you ever measured you fender heights with the stock or aftermaket spring combos? I'll bet if you do, you'll find that not one of them is considtent side to side or front to back. ... so you've got the same problem without any adjustment to help 'correct" it.

At least w/ coilovers, i've been able to get my fenders to withing 1/8" of each other, which is alot better than they were stock or w/ standard eibach pro-kits.

DamonB

I have read that article before and all you people who somehow feel diminished and are trying to justify your $$$ coilovers on the street just simmer down a little

I feel the point he is trying to make is that a true coilover damper is overkill for a street car. For street driving a good non adjustable shock with proper springs is all the improvement you need. If you want to go crazy get a coilover kit with adjustable perches and you can do whatever the heck you want with ride height.

You can't begin to tune a true adjustable damper on the street other than "yeah, it's softer now" or "yeah, it's harder now". If you tried you'd be arrested before you were finished. Dampers really come into play in tough transitional manuevers and trust me; you don't see those on any roads. If you drive like that I hope you do get arrested so that you don't endanger me or anyone else.

The author's point is that with an adjustable damper and adjustable perch heights you have just introduced new variables into the system of which you may have no understanding. If you don't understand them you are bound to under utilize them or worse: screw it up and actually take a step back in performance. "Aftermarket" does not mean "better", although you'd never know it from the signature envy we see around here

IMO too many people purchase dampers without knowing WHY they want new ones in the first place (this also true for many aftermarket parts). If you don't truly understand how the properties of a damper impact handling, how do you suppose you're going to adjust it properly? IMO you can't use it properly, but the kids at the local drive in will automatically think it's cooler and when you get down to it that is what most people are buying: coolness factor. There's something to be said for buying a product off the shelf that just bolts on and works without needing to be fiddled with.

If what you want is a better handling car learn how to drive first. You can get much more improvement by fixing the driver than you can the car. Car setup and suspension parts do not make a decent driver; education and experience does that. There are no parts you can bolt to the car that will cure driving mistakes.

RETed

Of course, the term "legal speed limits" are implied, but we all know where we stand on that.

I'm not going to lie - I do "stupid" things on the street.

Case in point, I used to push a stock 1987 RX-7 GXL non-turbo through an interchange in Sacramento, CA area with the posted speed limit sign at a recommended 20mph.  I got the car to go through that interchange over 80mph.  Keep in mind, this is with a STOCK suspension (with one blown rear shock - the loaded side) and cheapie generic tires.  I only did this when there was NO ONE around me for a good 1/4-mile front and back, so if I did get into trouble I'm the only one to get hurt or die.

Sure, we all get a little defensive in our upgrade purchases.  If we're looking at it as "legal speed limits", why even bother upgrading our cars?  All RX-7's can get you into a lot of trouble on the street - i.e. lots of traffic tickets.



-Ted

EL PAALO

The point he makes is somewhat valid, but if he truly believes it, why is he driving anything other than the most basic means of transportation. Follow his logic down a little further and we're all driving shitboxes with no modifications allowed.

Most people do things to their cars that they never use, misuse, or don't even know how to use. Call it rice, or a waste of money ....... who cares, not your car.
Is this guy gonna whine at people with highly capable cell phones that don't use all the features?

I'd guess that RX7 drivers have a much higher % of racing and or knowing more about their vehicles and characteristics than other vehicle owners (high % of M3 owners seem to be enthusiasts too). Maybe that's why there seems to be a high degree of backlash against the article in this thread.

Just rambling.

DamonB

You're taking this much to far. The topic of the article is specifically centered around $$$ adjustable shocks on street cars. You can't automatically revert that to make your argument valid.

EL PAALO

He seems to be too concerned about what others are doing to their cars. Maybe he really cares about other people's money? Either way, gotta crack on him even if it means taking his logic to an extremely nonsensical point.

rynberg

Yep. Too true....

Also very true, many of the forum members suffer from this. I only occassionally succumb to the "coolness" factor over function -- buying a used R1 strut brace for $180 instead of a brand new Cusco for $140 for example. I really slap my forehead when I see all the people talking about buying expensive aftermarket oil cooler kits or v-mount IC/radiators and they don't even have temp gauges or go to the track...

This quote should be stickied at the top of the suspension forum. It kills me to see people with coilovers, big wheels/tires, upgraded brakes, and they've never even been to an auto-x, let alone a HPDE.

apexhittinbull

iTrader: (21)

i say, T88 or that sorta turbo on a street driven car, is just like $3.5k goldy ohlins coilover for street. some people like G force on accelration, some like to feel it a little different.

WorkS2R

while i do agree that alot of people who buy coil-overs probably are severely mistaken about what they are buying them for, they can and do make a difference persay in the everyday, depending on driving characteristics..

i mean, if you are buying a 3-way, remote-reservoir JRZ/Penske/Ohlins and never goin to the track, god... then you are most likely wasting your money. However, if you are buying some random Tein HA, which is barely height adjustable (and.. rebound?) then you are probably utilising the full effect of those, and it isn't nearly as much of a waste.

You really have to be pushing the car to the limit to utilise things such as high + low speed compression and rebound.. i dont feel that most people even understand what that is, nevertheless going beyond the use of it.

Without that knowledge, one can really not utilise what he/she has purchased to its full effects.

SleepR1

Whole-heartedly AGREE

RETed

I think adjustability and flexbility is the main point...

Sure, when set, most of us won't every touch it ever again - but, you have peace of mind that you can adjust it later on down the line.

It's the same with stand-alone EMS units - we have the power to change parameter as we please.

My personal example is my ST two-way adjustble anti-sway bars.  On the "soft" setting up front, my FC would scarily oversteer in a brutal turn.  I had to adjust this to the stiffer setting to get the car to be somewhat neutral.

"Unnecessary" and "what consumers want" are usually mutually exclusive.


-Ted

Driven Mad

the article makes plenty of sense. he is surely addressing ricers and noobs who think FACOS is for them...learn to drive first, then mod the car to meet your NEW demands.How can you demand something of a machine before determining the goals you need to set? I have used two AM Coilover sets since i got started road racing.... Buddyclub, and JIC, both did fine. but I drive my cars to the limit. and back... in Deep valleys, canyons, mountanous terrain roads. to me, $1500-3000 for the new found Railguide handling, little to NO body roll, and tire surface in contact with the ground is worth it. But how many ricers drive VIR or L. Seca?

anobii

He he reading this reminded me of people driving humvees through new york city.......Now where was that damn trail at agian?

Damn good info tho.

E