Best street suspension
03-29-13, 08:44 AM
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Best street suspension
Ok I have looked all around and cant seem to find what im looking for. My car is 99% on the street and every once in a while on the track. I drive it daily and am looking for a nice suspension setup that will give the car a nice ride/ sporty ride. Currently i have tokico shocks with some off brand springs (they came on the car) and i feel like the car is no confidence inspiring as well as rather stiff. I dont know anything about the springs and have played around with the dampener settings on my shocks (which the shocks look like it might be time to replace them)
Im currently torn between coilovers and shock/spring combo. On my other car (2002 ford focus ) i have the h&r cup kit full suspension and it rides/handles great. I want a nice low setup but not so low i cant go over anything or make me have issues with my 17x9 rims. Currently the care sits pretty low in the front and has almost a small rake to it where the back sits higher than the front. But I have been very unimpressed so far with the way this car has handled and i have replaced just about everything except the springs and shocks. So im thinking this might be what my problem is with the car.
I would love to hear some opinions on what people think is best for a spirited driven street fd. Thanks for your help.
Im currently torn between coilovers and shock/spring combo. On my other car (2002 ford focus ) i have the h&r cup kit full suspension and it rides/handles great. I want a nice low setup but not so low i cant go over anything or make me have issues with my 17x9 rims. Currently the care sits pretty low in the front and has almost a small rake to it where the back sits higher than the front. But I have been very unimpressed so far with the way this car has handled and i have replaced just about everything except the springs and shocks. So im thinking this might be what my problem is with the car.
I would love to hear some opinions on what people think is best for a spirited driven street fd. Thanks for your help.
03-29-13, 02:38 PM
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I think you need to look at a couple of things.
The springs and shocks definitely effect the handling of the car and the feel but other things also come into play. I would choose a true coilover system and choose spring rates in the 6-10KG range either matched front and rear or slightly stiffer in the front by 2KG.
Look into upgrading your suspension bushings if they are old. The old ones tend to move around a lot if they are worn out. Replacing these will tighten everything up. I just replaced mine and my car feels like money. I upgraded to polyurethane ones made by superpro.
Another thing that effects handling and feel of the car is the tires and wheel width. You want to install tires with a slight stretch to them. If you are running 17x9" wheel widths, which has a 10" lip to lip wheel width, you want to choose a tire that has a section width smaller than 10" and a tread width smaller than 9". I would choose a 245/40/17 tire which also has the same overall tire diameter as stock.
This should clean up any problems you have with your car.
The springs and shocks definitely effect the handling of the car and the feel but other things also come into play. I would choose a true coilover system and choose spring rates in the 6-10KG range either matched front and rear or slightly stiffer in the front by 2KG.
Look into upgrading your suspension bushings if they are old. The old ones tend to move around a lot if they are worn out. Replacing these will tighten everything up. I just replaced mine and my car feels like money. I upgraded to polyurethane ones made by superpro.
Another thing that effects handling and feel of the car is the tires and wheel width. You want to install tires with a slight stretch to them. If you are running 17x9" wheel widths, which has a 10" lip to lip wheel width, you want to choose a tire that has a section width smaller than 10" and a tread width smaller than 9". I would choose a 245/40/17 tire which also has the same overall tire diameter as stock.
This should clean up any problems you have with your car.
03-29-13, 10:25 PM
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How much do you want to spend?
On the low cost end I like my Koni's (set full 'soft' for the street, much harder for the autocross) with H&R sport springs. Nice ride height too.
The factory setup is pretty good too, bilsteins and factory springs, but it doesn't get very low.
On the low cost end I like my Koni's (set full 'soft' for the street, much harder for the autocross) with H&R sport springs. Nice ride height too.
The factory setup is pretty good too, bilsteins and factory springs, but it doesn't get very low.
03-30-13, 07:49 AM
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Obviously im not made of money so a cost effective setup. But for a good quality setup that will get me what i am looking for i will spend some money. I know coil overs are more expensive than the springs and dampeners, so i would expect to pay more for those. Ride height is less important to me than ride quality. i do like the height its at now though. I wouldn't be upset though if my front had to raise just a bit. currently its about .5-1in off the tire. the back is about 2-2.5 in off the tire. Current tire sizes are 255/40/17 on 17x9 and 275/40/17 on 17x9.5. I don't want to decrease rear tire size due to i get good traction now from a hard launch and want to maintain that quality. I got thinking on my way home this morning from work that i haven't replaced my steering rack bushings and they could be getting soft. that might be causing a lot of my problems. Im going to check them out on my next day off. Mainly my main concern right now is figuring out this weird steering/suspension issue. But i do plan on changing the suspension eventually if not soon.
03-30-13, 09:16 AM
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"I have been very unimpressed so far with the way this car has handled"
"i feel like the car is no confidence inspiring as well as rather stiff."
"some off brand springs"
it is possible to make what may be one of the single best production sports cars and turn it into.... something less.
when your ford focus which has over 62% front weight and non camber gain suspension feels better than your FD things are just not right.
so what brand springs do you have? we need to know.
what air pressure are you running measured cold?
what are your alignment settings?
the stock FD springs are as follows:
front 4.69 KG/MM or 263 pounds per inch
rear 3.48 KG or 195 pounds per inch
rear spring rate is 42.5% of the total.
if you increase rear rate as a % of the total you lose rear grip.
rear grip is job one for a front engine rear drive car.
my favorite aftermarket spring is the Eibach Pro Kit
front 6.25 Kg/mm 350 pounds per inch
rear 4.55 Kg/mm 255 pounds per inch
rear as % of total 42.1%
Tein Flex
front 10.0 Kg/mm 560 pounds per inch
rear 8.21 Kg/mm or 460 pounds per inch
rear as % of total 45%
just on the edge of O K as to longitudinal balance but pretty stiff. i am currently running 10/8 Pettit and consider them too stiff for street. i get the feeling that the suspension it bound up, stiff kneed. (nothing wrong w the setup other than the spring rate)
i previously ran 8/6 and felt they were perfect for mostly street. my wife ran Eibachs on her FD and i really liked them too. they made a huge difference V stock.
i have been working w a vendor and they will be, within a month or so, offering an 8/6 coil over setup.
i doubt it is your bushings. there are only two sets of bushings that normally need to be replaced. the difff bushings and the large rubber bushings at the front of the lower longitudinal link. they should be replaced w a higher durometer or nylon type of bushing. one will decrease toe change under accel/braking and the other axle bounce.
BTW, i like your wheel/tire size. the FD should run a touch more rear rubber to promote grip. ideally tread contact width should equal rim width. you are close.
set your tire pressure at 30 front, 27 rear.
camber 1.2 neg all around.
front toe just a hair under 1/8th toed in
rear toe neutral.
minimal equal caster
zero thrust
full soft shock.
drive the car. get back to us.
howard
"i feel like the car is no confidence inspiring as well as rather stiff."
"some off brand springs"
it is possible to make what may be one of the single best production sports cars and turn it into.... something less.
when your ford focus which has over 62% front weight and non camber gain suspension feels better than your FD things are just not right.
so what brand springs do you have? we need to know.
what air pressure are you running measured cold?
what are your alignment settings?
the stock FD springs are as follows:
front 4.69 KG/MM or 263 pounds per inch
rear 3.48 KG or 195 pounds per inch
rear spring rate is 42.5% of the total.
if you increase rear rate as a % of the total you lose rear grip.
rear grip is job one for a front engine rear drive car.
my favorite aftermarket spring is the Eibach Pro Kit
front 6.25 Kg/mm 350 pounds per inch
rear 4.55 Kg/mm 255 pounds per inch
rear as % of total 42.1%
Tein Flex
front 10.0 Kg/mm 560 pounds per inch
rear 8.21 Kg/mm or 460 pounds per inch
rear as % of total 45%
just on the edge of O K as to longitudinal balance but pretty stiff. i am currently running 10/8 Pettit and consider them too stiff for street. i get the feeling that the suspension it bound up, stiff kneed. (nothing wrong w the setup other than the spring rate)
i previously ran 8/6 and felt they were perfect for mostly street. my wife ran Eibachs on her FD and i really liked them too. they made a huge difference V stock.
i have been working w a vendor and they will be, within a month or so, offering an 8/6 coil over setup.
i doubt it is your bushings. there are only two sets of bushings that normally need to be replaced. the difff bushings and the large rubber bushings at the front of the lower longitudinal link. they should be replaced w a higher durometer or nylon type of bushing. one will decrease toe change under accel/braking and the other axle bounce.
BTW, i like your wheel/tire size. the FD should run a touch more rear rubber to promote grip. ideally tread contact width should equal rim width. you are close.
set your tire pressure at 30 front, 27 rear.
camber 1.2 neg all around.
front toe just a hair under 1/8th toed in
rear toe neutral.
minimal equal caster
zero thrust
full soft shock.
drive the car. get back to us.
howard
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03-30-13, 10:42 AM
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You could go with the Tein Flex and order a pair of 6K springs for a 8/6 setup. I'm in the process of doing this. I have the Flex + 6K springs, though they're not installed yet.
03-30-13, 12:07 PM
#9
I have had Tein Flexes and now have Ohlins PCVs.
I can not believe that anyone would say that Tein flexes with 10/8 kg spring rates are too harsh. They are stiffer than stock but the dampening is so much better than stock that the overall ride quality is excellent. What people do not discuss when they discuss spring rate is what tires they plan to use with the car. The more tire the more spring rate you will need. With the new crop of "extreme summer performance" (Tire Rack term) tires available I would at least go with 10/8.
I wanted a bit more spring rate as I plan on running mild R-Compounds (probably Hankook Ventus TD) in 285/30 and 295/30 form. I am hoping that the 11/11 Ohlins will be able to handle it. As far as ride quality...believe the hype about Ohlins. They ride GREAT. A bit better than the Flexes despite their higher spring rates. Again, the dampening is excellent and so while it is stiffer...it does not have a worse "ride."
I can not believe that anyone would say that Tein flexes with 10/8 kg spring rates are too harsh. They are stiffer than stock but the dampening is so much better than stock that the overall ride quality is excellent. What people do not discuss when they discuss spring rate is what tires they plan to use with the car. The more tire the more spring rate you will need. With the new crop of "extreme summer performance" (Tire Rack term) tires available I would at least go with 10/8.
I wanted a bit more spring rate as I plan on running mild R-Compounds (probably Hankook Ventus TD) in 285/30 and 295/30 form. I am hoping that the 11/11 Ohlins will be able to handle it. As far as ride quality...believe the hype about Ohlins. They ride GREAT. A bit better than the Flexes despite their higher spring rates. Again, the dampening is excellent and so while it is stiffer...it does not have a worse "ride."
03-30-13, 01:21 PM
#11
We can help you get a set of street coilovers for your needs, send me a quick PM and we can discuss the best options for your budget. With that being said, my personal choice is Ohlins PCV, HKS Hypermax 3, Cusco 2E, Aragosta or Greddy Type-S for those on a budget.
03-30-13, 03:07 PM
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Wow lots of great info here. I really appreciate all the help. ok where to start.
Howard, i dont know the brand of the springs, the guy i bought the car said they were on the car when he got it and didnt know the brand, also nothing is written on the springs (i looked), im not too far off with tire pressure, I think i run about 30 all the way around, My suspension settings are almost exactly what you said, except my caster, but we set that up to be the best when driving, i think one side is 8 the other is 7, but when we had it less the car was HORRIBLE to drive. we put it back on the alignment rack 4 times and drove afterwards till it felt pretty good. I thought the rest of the problem was my settings on my shocks and stuff.
My problem is not necessarily the handling around a corner funny enough mine is in a straight line, It seems to track back and fourth really bad, and is rather twitchy at high speeds or just cruising. (it takes a tone of input in the wheel just to keep the car going straight down the road). I have no play in my wheel but it almost feels a bit loose at the top 2 inches of the wheel when cruising straight. I must inform mine is a swapped fd, with adjustable steering rack valve (yes i have messed with the valve tremendously and currently it is at the best location i have found).
I have heard several people talk about the eibachs so i might seriously consider those. with the tokico shocks or something like that.
About the alignment i want to find a place locally that does race suspension setups so i can get it cross aligned as well, the place i got it aligned at has a 2 wheel machine and feel that getting a place that does race tune alignments would help. as well as i want to corner balance the car as well.
The car handles and drives 1000% better than when i first got it. At first you couldnt keep the car in your own lane at high speeds off throttle (whether in gear or not in gear) Now its just ever so slightly twitchy and im **** about my cars and want it to be perfect.
I like hearing that in no way should my focus be better to drive because that thing drives amazing. So if i can get my fd to drive like that or better. I know im going to love this car.
For coil overs i just know all the coilover setups ive ever seen (all been on the 240s). Have all been way to stiff for the street. Solid and great handling but way to hard for a daily. On my current 240 (drift toy) it has 8k/6k and its way to hard for the street.
Howard, i dont know the brand of the springs, the guy i bought the car said they were on the car when he got it and didnt know the brand, also nothing is written on the springs (i looked), im not too far off with tire pressure, I think i run about 30 all the way around, My suspension settings are almost exactly what you said, except my caster, but we set that up to be the best when driving, i think one side is 8 the other is 7, but when we had it less the car was HORRIBLE to drive. we put it back on the alignment rack 4 times and drove afterwards till it felt pretty good. I thought the rest of the problem was my settings on my shocks and stuff.
My problem is not necessarily the handling around a corner funny enough mine is in a straight line, It seems to track back and fourth really bad, and is rather twitchy at high speeds or just cruising. (it takes a tone of input in the wheel just to keep the car going straight down the road). I have no play in my wheel but it almost feels a bit loose at the top 2 inches of the wheel when cruising straight. I must inform mine is a swapped fd, with adjustable steering rack valve (yes i have messed with the valve tremendously and currently it is at the best location i have found).
I have heard several people talk about the eibachs so i might seriously consider those. with the tokico shocks or something like that.
About the alignment i want to find a place locally that does race suspension setups so i can get it cross aligned as well, the place i got it aligned at has a 2 wheel machine and feel that getting a place that does race tune alignments would help. as well as i want to corner balance the car as well.
The car handles and drives 1000% better than when i first got it. At first you couldnt keep the car in your own lane at high speeds off throttle (whether in gear or not in gear) Now its just ever so slightly twitchy and im **** about my cars and want it to be perfect.
I like hearing that in no way should my focus be better to drive because that thing drives amazing. So if i can get my fd to drive like that or better. I know im going to love this car.
For coil overs i just know all the coilover setups ive ever seen (all been on the 240s). Have all been way to stiff for the street. Solid and great handling but way to hard for a daily. On my current 240 (drift toy) it has 8k/6k and its way to hard for the street.
Last edited by Focuzed-Rex; 03-30-13 at 03:10 PM.
03-30-13, 08:05 PM
#13
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"It seems to track back and fourth really bad"
you have a LS FD. has the steering rack been relocated? is it a non OE rack?
normal fix for hunting is toe in. you need just less than an 1/8 inch. toe in makes the car go straight. you should be able to take your hands off the wheel on a level road and the car will go straight.
there are other possibilities... uneven lateral tire pressure. uneven lateral ride height. sloppy outer steering arm rod ends too much wheel offset causing major scrub radius.
but mostly toe... or lack of it.
i don't know what an adj steering rack valve is... i removed the power steering in 1999 and consider it my favorite mod. the FD, even w a V8, doesn't need power steering.
i have scaled my nephews LS2 FD and it had 34 pounds more nose weight than stock so the power-train shouldn't be an issue.
as to bushings...
the front upper A arms carry NO weight so they aren't a maintenance issue. the outer steering rod ends are easy to check... just jack the car up and grab the wheel... ditto the wheel bearings. that leaves the large lower A arm bushings.. i have yet to see one worn out.
if a lower bushing was worn it would pull only to one side.
offset rear thrust would pull to only one side.
rear toe, if it were toed out a bunch could cause the problem. toed in no problem.
large amounts of caster cause heavy steering and major ride height shift. a car w a lot of caster transfers weight the wrong direction,
sit in your car, spot each front fender. turn the wheel lock to lock. watch one fender rise and the other fall. more camber, more change. you just need a touch and it doesn't effect anything else.
what is cross aligned? are you talking about adjusting the ride height for weight transfer?
you will need to readjust camber afterwards as camber changes w ride height. i would align it square and not mess w weight jacking.
there has been some comments about spring rate...
i do agree that there is a difference between 17 and 18 inch setups. 18 requires less spring rate than 17 as 17 has alot of compliance in the sidewall. also, the stickier the tire the more rate you need to counteract the increased grip. my 8/6 suggestion is not for R rated tires.
what you should be looking for is approx 1.625 inches of travel at the shock rod. wrap it w a tie wrap and do a few laps. check the travel from the tie wrap. whatever it takes to give you approx 1.625 at the shock...
howard
you have a LS FD. has the steering rack been relocated? is it a non OE rack?
normal fix for hunting is toe in. you need just less than an 1/8 inch. toe in makes the car go straight. you should be able to take your hands off the wheel on a level road and the car will go straight.
there are other possibilities... uneven lateral tire pressure. uneven lateral ride height. sloppy outer steering arm rod ends too much wheel offset causing major scrub radius.
but mostly toe... or lack of it.
i don't know what an adj steering rack valve is... i removed the power steering in 1999 and consider it my favorite mod. the FD, even w a V8, doesn't need power steering.
i have scaled my nephews LS2 FD and it had 34 pounds more nose weight than stock so the power-train shouldn't be an issue.
as to bushings...
the front upper A arms carry NO weight so they aren't a maintenance issue. the outer steering rod ends are easy to check... just jack the car up and grab the wheel... ditto the wheel bearings. that leaves the large lower A arm bushings.. i have yet to see one worn out.
if a lower bushing was worn it would pull only to one side.
offset rear thrust would pull to only one side.
rear toe, if it were toed out a bunch could cause the problem. toed in no problem.
large amounts of caster cause heavy steering and major ride height shift. a car w a lot of caster transfers weight the wrong direction,
sit in your car, spot each front fender. turn the wheel lock to lock. watch one fender rise and the other fall. more camber, more change. you just need a touch and it doesn't effect anything else.
what is cross aligned? are you talking about adjusting the ride height for weight transfer?
you will need to readjust camber afterwards as camber changes w ride height. i would align it square and not mess w weight jacking.
there has been some comments about spring rate...
i do agree that there is a difference between 17 and 18 inch setups. 18 requires less spring rate than 17 as 17 has alot of compliance in the sidewall. also, the stickier the tire the more rate you need to counteract the increased grip. my 8/6 suggestion is not for R rated tires.
what you should be looking for is approx 1.625 inches of travel at the shock rod. wrap it w a tie wrap and do a few laps. check the travel from the tie wrap. whatever it takes to give you approx 1.625 at the shock...
howard
03-30-13, 11:00 PM
#14
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I also like your tire sizes, but I am biased since that is what I have: 255/40-17 and 275/40-17's on similiar rim sizes.
What tires do you have? How old are they, and how much wear on them?
I've seen evidence of old tires acting squirrley too. My son's car had a wierd side to side movement in the rear, which was finally traced down to a tire with separating tread, which was only seen up on a rack as a slightly more worn spot. Other times tires just seem to get worn into a poor pattern.
Great insights from Howard!
What tires do you have? How old are they, and how much wear on them?
I've seen evidence of old tires acting squirrley too. My son's car had a wierd side to side movement in the rear, which was finally traced down to a tire with separating tread, which was only seen up on a rack as a slightly more worn spot. Other times tires just seem to get worn into a poor pattern.
Great insights from Howard!
03-31-13, 08:41 AM
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Wow howard I should have been talking to you a long time ago. Thanks a ton for everyone in this forum. So far Im learning more from you all in a few days than the months ive been searching and trying to figure out this problem.
Ok.. Im going to try to respond to everything you said to the best of my ability.
All 4 of my tires a + toe 1/8, Not sure if that means toed in or out. (im pretty sure he said that was toed in).
The adjustable steering rack valve allows me to adjust the pressure going from the ls1 power steering pump to the rack (due to the ls1 pump will over drive the rx7 rack), yes the rack has been relocated but they put a bump steer correction kit on it to correct any issues and the relocation is suppose to actually improve handling (from what ive read on all the swap forums)
From my understanding and talking to the guy i purchased my car from when he weighed it mine was actually lighter than a stock fd. (2830lbs with him in it, and he out weighs me by prob 50lbs)
I have checked for loose parts in the front and rear of car by lifting the car and wiggling anything i could see or touch, also seeing if i could get some movement with a pry bar (that is how i found the parts loose that i did)
The caster on my car is 8 on driver side and 7 on pass side. it originally was set to stock. But when he put it that way it my car was horribly loose and scary to drive. (come to think of it. it seems a bit slower to respond when i quickly tweek the wheel to the driver side, could that be due to the uneven caster?)
Im not sure what offset thrust is.
I will try that sitting in the car thing and watching the fenders.
Cross aligned is something i saw on this forum where they had settings for it. Not sure what its for. or why they do it. I guess to make sure its square and pulling tension correctly. to be honest your guess is probably better than mine.
I have -1.2 camber on all 4 tires i believe.
Hadavette, I looked at my tires a while ago thinking that could have been a problem and they look good. On the front i have nexens n 5000 they did have a bit of odd wear but when i got it aligned the first time it was a bit off so i figured it was due to that. and on the back i have bfg g-sports and they look great. Im not sure the age but they are not dry rotted or shaped funny and still have more than 70% tread wear on them.
I messed with some more settings this morning. Tightened up my dampeners one more click all the way around so at this moment im 3 clicks from the softest, and also turned back my adjustment valve on my rack and this was the best its ever been. Im so very close to getting it right. it still seems to hunt just ever so slightly. some times it seems to do it worse when i brake.
I was also cutting the wheel back and fourth one side at a time running down the freeway at speeds ive been having the problems at (aprox 60-70mph) and it seems to be very responsive when i twitch the wheel towards the passenger side (right) but just ever so very slightly delayed (maybe .2-.5 secs if that ) when twitched to the driver side (left). So it just seems more responsive to the right. The pulling a direction when i brake a bit is very intermittent and doesnt just pull one way. It does seem to do it more to the right, but is not set in its decision to pull on way.
I think im very very close to getting this car exactly the way i want. I thank everyone for the help and pray that everyone keeps it coming. I really want to keep this car and get her right. shes straight sex on wheels cosmetically. Now we just need to make her drive as good as she looks.
Here is a pic of here.
The top is what she looked like when i got her the bottom is what she looks like now 7 months later.
Ok.. Im going to try to respond to everything you said to the best of my ability.
All 4 of my tires a + toe 1/8, Not sure if that means toed in or out. (im pretty sure he said that was toed in).
The adjustable steering rack valve allows me to adjust the pressure going from the ls1 power steering pump to the rack (due to the ls1 pump will over drive the rx7 rack), yes the rack has been relocated but they put a bump steer correction kit on it to correct any issues and the relocation is suppose to actually improve handling (from what ive read on all the swap forums)
From my understanding and talking to the guy i purchased my car from when he weighed it mine was actually lighter than a stock fd. (2830lbs with him in it, and he out weighs me by prob 50lbs)
I have checked for loose parts in the front and rear of car by lifting the car and wiggling anything i could see or touch, also seeing if i could get some movement with a pry bar (that is how i found the parts loose that i did)
The caster on my car is 8 on driver side and 7 on pass side. it originally was set to stock. But when he put it that way it my car was horribly loose and scary to drive. (come to think of it. it seems a bit slower to respond when i quickly tweek the wheel to the driver side, could that be due to the uneven caster?)
Im not sure what offset thrust is.
I will try that sitting in the car thing and watching the fenders.
Cross aligned is something i saw on this forum where they had settings for it. Not sure what its for. or why they do it. I guess to make sure its square and pulling tension correctly. to be honest your guess is probably better than mine.
I have -1.2 camber on all 4 tires i believe.
Hadavette, I looked at my tires a while ago thinking that could have been a problem and they look good. On the front i have nexens n 5000 they did have a bit of odd wear but when i got it aligned the first time it was a bit off so i figured it was due to that. and on the back i have bfg g-sports and they look great. Im not sure the age but they are not dry rotted or shaped funny and still have more than 70% tread wear on them.
I messed with some more settings this morning. Tightened up my dampeners one more click all the way around so at this moment im 3 clicks from the softest, and also turned back my adjustment valve on my rack and this was the best its ever been. Im so very close to getting it right. it still seems to hunt just ever so slightly. some times it seems to do it worse when i brake.
I was also cutting the wheel back and fourth one side at a time running down the freeway at speeds ive been having the problems at (aprox 60-70mph) and it seems to be very responsive when i twitch the wheel towards the passenger side (right) but just ever so very slightly delayed (maybe .2-.5 secs if that ) when twitched to the driver side (left). So it just seems more responsive to the right. The pulling a direction when i brake a bit is very intermittent and doesnt just pull one way. It does seem to do it more to the right, but is not set in its decision to pull on way.
I think im very very close to getting this car exactly the way i want. I thank everyone for the help and pray that everyone keeps it coming. I really want to keep this car and get her right. shes straight sex on wheels cosmetically. Now we just need to make her drive as good as she looks.
Here is a pic of here.
The top is what she looked like when i got her the bottom is what she looks like now 7 months later.
Last edited by Focuzed-Rex; 03-31-13 at 08:43 AM.
03-31-13, 12:42 PM
#17
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
if there is any bump steer in the car it will hunt and also royally suck to drive. if your rack has been relocated i recommend you check for bump steer. and i can assure you it isn't improved from OE as there is no OE bump steer.
bump steer is evil. you want zero. short track guys adjust bump steer w a feeler gauge... that is how important it is.
you can make what you need to measure it for lunch money.
+ toe to me sounds toed out but i won't bet on it. double check to see you are toed in, not out. rear should be straight ahead, no toe in or out.
howard
bump steer is evil. you want zero. short track guys adjust bump steer w a feeler gauge... that is how important it is.
you can make what you need to measure it for lunch money.
+ toe to me sounds toed out but i won't bet on it. double check to see you are toed in, not out. rear should be straight ahead, no toe in or out.
howard
03-31-13, 03:02 PM
#18
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Im not sure. i think its like 40ish they are xxr wheels. They are not poked out or anything. I was actually thinking of putting a small space to make them come out just a tiny bit.
I was going to look into this. I was talking to the guy i bought the car from yesterday on my way to work and he told me he wasnt sure if the bump steer was right. He said he didnt have a gauge and it didnt tell him how many spacers to use with it. So he just use some. (if i had known this i would have checked it a long time ago) Also I was told the stock fd has alot of bump steer thats why they make a bumpsteer kit to begin with.
Is there a how to on what to use and how to check the bump steer? The only ones i ve seen have been with the gauge? I have lunch money and dont mind doing that.
if there is any bump steer in the car it will hunt and also royally suck to drive. if your rack has been relocated i recommend you check for bump steer. and i can assure you it isn't improved from OE as there is no OE bump steer.
bump steer is evil. you want zero. short track guys adjust bump steer w a feeler gauge... that is how important it is.
you can make what you need to measure it for lunch money.
+ toe to me sounds toed out but i won't bet on it. double check to see you are toed in, not out. rear should be straight ahead, no toe in or out.
howard
bump steer is evil. you want zero. short track guys adjust bump steer w a feeler gauge... that is how important it is.
you can make what you need to measure it for lunch money.
+ toe to me sounds toed out but i won't bet on it. double check to see you are toed in, not out. rear should be straight ahead, no toe in or out.
howard
Is there a how to on what to use and how to check the bump steer? The only ones i ve seen have been with the gauge? I have lunch money and dont mind doing that.
03-31-13, 04:14 PM
#19
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
"I was told the stock fd has alot of bump steer thats why they make a bumpsteer kit to begin with."
"there is no OE bump steer"
measure distance from the center of the wheel to the fender lip.
car up on jackstands
remove the spring
jack the corner back to ride height
at this point you can do it 2 ways
make a plate that has the same width of the wheel's O D
fixture it so it bolts to the hub
place a sheet of white cardboard on the ground under the corner.
hang a plumb bob at the edge of the plate. (it would be at the O D of the tire)
mark where the plumb bob touches the white paper. jack the wheel up one inch
reset the plumb bob and mark the spot.
do it at 2 inches.
then lower the wheel and do it one and 2 inches below ride height
measure where your plots are.
they should be one spot. if not you have bump steer otherwise known as toe steer.
total cost, a plumb bob from the hardware store or you could make one, string and a sheet of white cardboard. about the cost of a happy meal.
the other way is the way racers do it... they make a plate that fits on the hub and use two dial indicators. the plate has lines every inch to make height easier.
more on bump steer after dinner.
howard
"there is no OE bump steer"
measure distance from the center of the wheel to the fender lip.
car up on jackstands
remove the spring
jack the corner back to ride height
at this point you can do it 2 ways
make a plate that has the same width of the wheel's O D
fixture it so it bolts to the hub
place a sheet of white cardboard on the ground under the corner.
hang a plumb bob at the edge of the plate. (it would be at the O D of the tire)
mark where the plumb bob touches the white paper. jack the wheel up one inch
reset the plumb bob and mark the spot.
do it at 2 inches.
then lower the wheel and do it one and 2 inches below ride height
measure where your plots are.
they should be one spot. if not you have bump steer otherwise known as toe steer.
total cost, a plumb bob from the hardware store or you could make one, string and a sheet of white cardboard. about the cost of a happy meal.
the other way is the way racers do it... they make a plate that fits on the hub and use two dial indicators. the plate has lines every inch to make height easier.
more on bump steer after dinner.
howard
03-31-13, 09:07 PM
#20
I'm very happy with recently revised, street oriented suspension. I'm using Koni shocks with Tein H-Tech springs and stock upper shock mounts. Shocks are set at the middle perch. Very civil and does everything right for me.
Used to have Konis on Ground Control setup with 450/350 springs. Was happy with that for some time especially when I tracked the car more but am enjoying the new, softer setup on the street. I also got rid of the poly bushings I had. More NVH than I wanted for street use. Using Mazdaspeed stock bushings now.
Used to have Konis on Ground Control setup with 450/350 springs. Was happy with that for some time especially when I tracked the car more but am enjoying the new, softer setup on the street. I also got rid of the poly bushings I had. More NVH than I wanted for street use. Using Mazdaspeed stock bushings now.
04-01-13, 06:41 AM
#21
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
i buy gracer7-rx7's comments 100%.
Tein H-Tech are
front 6.96 Kg/mm 390 pounds per inch
rear 5.17 Kg/mm 290 pounds per inch
rear 42.6% of total spring rate
really nice for aggressive steet
Koni's and Bilstein shocks have traditionally been the gold standard so don't overlook them.
howard
Tein H-Tech are
front 6.96 Kg/mm 390 pounds per inch
rear 5.17 Kg/mm 290 pounds per inch
rear 42.6% of total spring rate
really nice for aggressive steet
Koni's and Bilstein shocks have traditionally been the gold standard so don't overlook them.
howard
04-01-13, 06:57 AM
#22
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Bump Steer.... Toe Steer
EVIL
while all suspension settings are important toe may be the most important.
at ride height a small amount of toe-in forms a vector keeping the car driving straight.
on the FD there are three primary suspension components w re to toe...
upper A arm
lower A arm
steering arm
assuming the bushings in the steering arms and the outer ball joints are solid, generally a good assumption, the steering arm maintains toe dynamically. to do this it must trace the same arc as the control arms. any deviation and you get toe in or toe out.
it is essential to roll the tires thru a corner rather than drag/scrub them as they lose adhesion and self steer independently from each other.
i drove a friend's recently purchased FD 20B a few years ago.
100 yards.
i turned around and headed back to the garage. the car was just horrible to drive. i later did a plumb bob on it and found it had over 1/2 inch of toe steer at 2 inches! that means on a left hand corner the right hand wheel would trace an arc much tighter than the left hand wheel.
the result was on any turn you would have to counter steer out of the turn partially to get the car from going progressively tighter into the corner. the effect on traction was major since both tires were scrubbing, not rolling.
further, driving straight on a slightly bumpy road (most roads) as one wheel would encounter a bump and the tire would rise the corner of the car would self steer.
hunt.
relocated steering racks and relocated outer steering arm points are generally a band-aid and often do not provide the proper fix.
i personally would never touch the FD rack.
but that's just me.
howard
EVIL
while all suspension settings are important toe may be the most important.
at ride height a small amount of toe-in forms a vector keeping the car driving straight.
on the FD there are three primary suspension components w re to toe...
upper A arm
lower A arm
steering arm
assuming the bushings in the steering arms and the outer ball joints are solid, generally a good assumption, the steering arm maintains toe dynamically. to do this it must trace the same arc as the control arms. any deviation and you get toe in or toe out.
it is essential to roll the tires thru a corner rather than drag/scrub them as they lose adhesion and self steer independently from each other.
i drove a friend's recently purchased FD 20B a few years ago.
100 yards.
i turned around and headed back to the garage. the car was just horrible to drive. i later did a plumb bob on it and found it had over 1/2 inch of toe steer at 2 inches! that means on a left hand corner the right hand wheel would trace an arc much tighter than the left hand wheel.
the result was on any turn you would have to counter steer out of the turn partially to get the car from going progressively tighter into the corner. the effect on traction was major since both tires were scrubbing, not rolling.
further, driving straight on a slightly bumpy road (most roads) as one wheel would encounter a bump and the tire would rise the corner of the car would self steer.
hunt.
relocated steering racks and relocated outer steering arm points are generally a band-aid and often do not provide the proper fix.
i personally would never touch the FD rack.
but that's just me.
howard
04-01-13, 08:09 AM
#24
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Ok i think i have a plum bob some where around here, or know someone with one.
Gracer do you have pics of your car from side profile? Id like to see how it looks ride height wise? What size tires. rims do you use?
Howard, what are you thoughts on tokico shocks? maybe with eibach springs?
Gracer do you have pics of your car from side profile? Id like to see how it looks ride height wise? What size tires. rims do you use?
Howard, what are you thoughts on tokico shocks? maybe with eibach springs?
04-01-13, 03:30 PM
#25
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
most that own FDs seriously like to drive.
if you were to take that group, put them in an FD w nothing but stock shocks and Eibach Pro-Kit springs i guarantee they would have the widest smiles and be driving waaay over the limit... just like an FD is supposed to be driven.
while the Eibachs are up only 33% from OE, they transform the car.
i had a shock dyno for years and can tell you that the stock shocks work very well w the Eibachs. another tibit w re to stock shocks is i have dyno'd over 30. they ranged from 3400 miles to over 100,000 and they all generated exactly similar data. (as long as the seals aren't leaking fluid).
as to Tokicos, i haven't dyno'd them and while i have driven an Eibach/Tokico FD i really don't have enough direct experience to offer an opinion.
i would prefer Konis or Bilsteins based on their proven pedigree.
the coil over market is extremely competitive and IMO there is more BS in this area than apex seals or oil... tread carefully.
howard
if you were to take that group, put them in an FD w nothing but stock shocks and Eibach Pro-Kit springs i guarantee they would have the widest smiles and be driving waaay over the limit... just like an FD is supposed to be driven.
while the Eibachs are up only 33% from OE, they transform the car.
i had a shock dyno for years and can tell you that the stock shocks work very well w the Eibachs. another tibit w re to stock shocks is i have dyno'd over 30. they ranged from 3400 miles to over 100,000 and they all generated exactly similar data. (as long as the seals aren't leaking fluid).
as to Tokicos, i haven't dyno'd them and while i have driven an Eibach/Tokico FD i really don't have enough direct experience to offer an opinion.
i would prefer Konis or Bilsteins based on their proven pedigree.
the coil over market is extremely competitive and IMO there is more BS in this area than apex seals or oil... tread carefully.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-01-13 at 03:33 PM.