RX-Club of Houston Monthly Meeting - July 10th @ Gabby's BBQ and more...
07-10-12, 05:06 PM
#26
Highwayman
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I ordered at Chuck's recommendation recently. Most on the forum seem to just get by without 
FWIW, my car is definitely under option 1 and not option 2 as I can cause slight slippage if I try and turn with car off. Need to find a good how-to
Were you not aware of the issue before your motor cratered?
FWIW, my car is definitely under option 1 and not option 2 as I can cause slight slippage if I try and turn with car off. Need to find a good how-to
Were you not aware of the issue before your motor cratered?
You've got 3 choices then:
1.) Leave it off and don't over-tighten your belt. Risk losing contact with water-pump pulley at higher RPM, causing reduced cooling efficiency.
2.) Leave it off and way over tighten your belt for the next, oh, 5k miles or so. End up with the same results I had.
3.) Put it on and have both belt contact at high RPM, and proper belt tension (and angle of action of force on the main pulley).
I'm not calling you out specifically - you already have the idler pulley, just haven't installed it. But in general, if you choose 1 or 2 without resorting to Gilmer drive belts or something... Then you're a complete idiot. Or blissfully ignorant.
Install that idler ASAP! Sheesh, how long can it take, 20 minutes? Ok, plus heading to the nearest parts store to get the proper size belt... maybe 45 minutes if you are slow about it? It's worth spending your time installing it in order to prevent catastrophic bearing failure.
If you show up to the meet without it on... the consequences will never be the same.
1.) Leave it off and don't over-tighten your belt. Risk losing contact with water-pump pulley at higher RPM, causing reduced cooling efficiency.
2.) Leave it off and way over tighten your belt for the next, oh, 5k miles or so. End up with the same results I had.
3.) Put it on and have both belt contact at high RPM, and proper belt tension (and angle of action of force on the main pulley).
I'm not calling you out specifically - you already have the idler pulley, just haven't installed it. But in general, if you choose 1 or 2 without resorting to Gilmer drive belts or something... Then you're a complete idiot. Or blissfully ignorant.
Install that idler ASAP! Sheesh, how long can it take, 20 minutes? Ok, plus heading to the nearest parts store to get the proper size belt... maybe 45 minutes if you are slow about it? It's worth spending your time installing it in order to prevent catastrophic bearing failure.
If you show up to the meet without it on... the consequences will never be the same.
07-10-12, 06:15 PM
#27
Most on the forum seem to get by without it because when their motor fails, they do not think thoroughly enough about WHY their front stationary gear failed. 
Thus, they do not say anything about it.
You shouldn't need a how-to, the idler is meant to attach only one way, just like in Scott's picture in the post before yours. Just keep the RPM low for now.
I was aware that there was no air pump or idler, but I could not have known the extent of the damage already caused - it is hard to know history about a new (to you) car if it is undocumented. It was apparently assembled without the airpump or an idler, but I only found out after the engine was apart. As soon as I got home after buying the car, the air pump was the first part to go on the car.
Thus, they do not say anything about it.You shouldn't need a how-to, the idler is meant to attach only one way, just like in Scott's picture in the post before yours. Just keep the RPM low for now.
I was aware that there was no air pump or idler, but I could not have known the extent of the damage already caused - it is hard to know history about a new (to you) car if it is undocumented. It was apparently assembled without the airpump or an idler, but I only found out after the engine was apart. As soon as I got home after buying the car, the air pump was the first part to go on the car.
07-10-12, 06:21 PM
#28
For option (1) If you are running stock pulleys, you probably have as much belt contact without the air pump as running a Greddy-style underdrive set.
For instance, its when you add a main under drive pulley that you really get in trouble since its diameter is smaller. You will notice that most air pump elimination sets include underdrive pulleys for the alternator and waterpump - because they are bigger to compensate.
You probably wouldn't notice the extra belt tension from option (2) chewing the **** out of your main bearings. Its a silent killer.
If you really (really) wanted to change them in the car you could. However, I'd just yank the engine to change the front bearing. The rear one is much easier to access.... if you call dropping the transmission, clutch, and flywheel easy.
I really doubt the air pump is a drag on your engine when it is disengaged since it has an electric clutch that allows it to free spin. Unless you need the space for a single turbo, leave it in there. Unplug it if you wish, it makes a GREAT idler!
For instance, its when you add a main under drive pulley that you really get in trouble since its diameter is smaller. You will notice that most air pump elimination sets include underdrive pulleys for the alternator and waterpump - because they are bigger to compensate.
You probably wouldn't notice the extra belt tension from option (2) chewing the **** out of your main bearings. Its a silent killer.
If you really (really) wanted to change them in the car you could. However, I'd just yank the engine to change the front bearing. The rear one is much easier to access.... if you call dropping the transmission, clutch, and flywheel easy. I really doubt the air pump is a drag on your engine when it is disengaged since it has an electric clutch that allows it to free spin. Unless you need the space for a single turbo, leave it in there. Unplug it if you wish, it makes a GREAT idler!
07-10-12, 08:15 PM
#29
Weather permitting, Chuck and I will be there. I won't have my FD though, engine let go due to not having an airpump (Banzai's and previous owner's fault), and the belt being overtightened (mostly previous owner's fault). All four bearings need to be replaced, and the front stat gear bearing left what looks like an ant-hill-sized mound of copper in my oil pan.
Funny that I have emails from you saying the the engine runs incredibly well and that it has the highest compression that you or Chuck has ever seen.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 07-10-12 at 08:24 PM.
07-11-12, 01:22 AM
#30
I want to keep this civil as much as possible... so let me get it out of the way that I do admit that as much as I insinuated is harsh. It certainly isn't your responsibility to hold the owner's hands through the process of rotary ownership. I don't doubt the the ultimate cause of this was a combination of over-tightening the belts and some OMP failure before I bought the car... or maybe the previous owner to me decided to just premix and there was no OMP failure, I guess it's pointless regardless.
Sorry for making it seem like your shop was the main cause.
However, I do believe it's your responsibility to properly educate owners... and in an ideal world, turn them away if they are unwilling to properly take care of their own cars (in this case, emissions delete with no idler pulley). If you do not believe that deleting the air pump can cause issues, or if it was done simply because the owner asked, then that's a difference we will not be able to reconciliate and it would be best to take this to pm's - I think that would work to everyone's advantage better.
RE: engine running well, compression. That is 100% true, it was running great, especially after the addition of NGK race plugs, properly sized primaries (and 2000cc secondaries), and a retune (your tune was messed with by someone the previous owner knew, so I have absolutely no idea as to the quality of your tune). And it is also true that when we tested the compression a MONTHS ago, it had the highest compression we've tested, with some faces at or over 130psi. Looking back, however, the car had always had an abnormally large amount of vibration. I had polyurethane mounts on my last FD just like the current FD, and that car never vibrated as much as this one did - but it was not to a degree that I would have given much thought to at the time. It must have been imbalance in the rotating assembly caused by the wearing bearings. Bad judgement on my part, I guess, but the end result would have been the same - rebuild.
Look. I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that I'm sorry for implying that you were the root cause (not actually my original intention, but I did not make that clear enough - my fault). But I also think that not keeping the airpump/not adding an idler was instrumental to accelerating the failure. I have the receipt for the owner who brought the car to you... it would have been a drop in the bucket for him to add an idler pulley.
As someone who self-tunes, the 850cc primaries were an absolute nightmare to lean out the idle and low load areas. This is a mod that the RX-7 community, as a whole, needs to start stepping away from... 600cc/min of fuel is not worth the tuning headache, imo. I was tempted to toss them in the trash when a friend reminded me they could be bored out to 1200s.
Banzai has a great reputation for a good reason - I've heard many other people's stories about their engine rebuilds and this failure is not attributable to their prowess with rebuilds. I would still trust them to do a rebuild. Given this reputation, I don't really think it's that necessary to snap at a Joe Schmoe like me who has literally almost no affect on your business... Aside from the Houston 7 Club, who the hell knows me or cares? Your business' reputation would stand strong regardless.
Sorry for making it seem like your shop was the main cause.
However, I do believe it's your responsibility to properly educate owners... and in an ideal world, turn them away if they are unwilling to properly take care of their own cars (in this case, emissions delete with no idler pulley). If you do not believe that deleting the air pump can cause issues, or if it was done simply because the owner asked, then that's a difference we will not be able to reconciliate and it would be best to take this to pm's - I think that would work to everyone's advantage better.
RE: engine running well, compression. That is 100% true, it was running great, especially after the addition of NGK race plugs, properly sized primaries (and 2000cc secondaries), and a retune (your tune was messed with by someone the previous owner knew, so I have absolutely no idea as to the quality of your tune). And it is also true that when we tested the compression a MONTHS ago, it had the highest compression we've tested, with some faces at or over 130psi. Looking back, however, the car had always had an abnormally large amount of vibration. I had polyurethane mounts on my last FD just like the current FD, and that car never vibrated as much as this one did - but it was not to a degree that I would have given much thought to at the time. It must have been imbalance in the rotating assembly caused by the wearing bearings. Bad judgement on my part, I guess, but the end result would have been the same - rebuild.
Look. I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that I'm sorry for implying that you were the root cause (not actually my original intention, but I did not make that clear enough - my fault). But I also think that not keeping the airpump/not adding an idler was instrumental to accelerating the failure. I have the receipt for the owner who brought the car to you... it would have been a drop in the bucket for him to add an idler pulley.
As someone who self-tunes, the 850cc primaries were an absolute nightmare to lean out the idle and low load areas. This is a mod that the RX-7 community, as a whole, needs to start stepping away from... 600cc/min of fuel is not worth the tuning headache, imo. I was tempted to toss them in the trash when a friend reminded me they could be bored out to 1200s.
Banzai has a great reputation for a good reason - I've heard many other people's stories about their engine rebuilds and this failure is not attributable to their prowess with rebuilds. I would still trust them to do a rebuild. Given this reputation, I don't really think it's that necessary to snap at a Joe Schmoe like me who has literally almost no affect on your business... Aside from the Houston 7 Club, who the hell knows me or cares? Your business' reputation would stand strong regardless.
07-11-12, 05:20 AM
#31
You are talking about a part that did not exist 5 years ago. We install idlers on every car that comes into our shop that the airpump is removed, now that they were actaully developed. Prior to that the common practice was to simply add Greddy (or similar) underdrive water and alternator, it has been done for the last 15+ years since the pulleys came out.
Trust me we educate our customers far more than any other shop out there, however we are not going to turn down business if someone refuses to treat their own private property correctly, lol. You bought a car that has been through at least 2 owners since we have seen it.
Do your research before posting.
Trust me we educate our customers far more than any other shop out there, however we are not going to turn down business if someone refuses to treat their own private property correctly, lol. You bought a car that has been through at least 2 owners since we have seen it.
Do your research before posting.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 07-11-12 at 05:32 AM.
07-11-12, 10:11 AM
#32
Eye In The Sky
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When I rebuilt my engine in 1999, I replaced my engine harness because it was already in bad condition.
Around that time I started working with my mentor (Rick) rebuilding engines for local owners. We started having harness problems with rebuilds . I was the one that told him that I would not help him do any more rebuilds that did not include a new harness as they were thrash by then.
We followed that rule and then we quit having weird engine running problems.
True we lost a few jobs, but I believe in higher standards.
I have seen more recent rebuild engines still with original crappy harnesss's and it makes me cringe!
Around that time I started working with my mentor (Rick) rebuilding engines for local owners. We started having harness problems with rebuilds . I was the one that told him that I would not help him do any more rebuilds that did not include a new harness as they were thrash by then.
We followed that rule and then we quit having weird engine running problems.
True we lost a few jobs, but I believe in higher standards.
I have seen more recent rebuild engines still with original crappy harnesss's and it makes me cringe!
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