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Kinda hard without proper documentation, but it looks like the pulley is on the leading 5ATDC mark. The one to the left is probably the 20ATDC for the trailing plug and I would bet the right mark is TDC. So if it's locked at -5° it looks spot on if that's leading plug on the front rotor.
Factory Mark is at -5 ATDC and -20 ATDC, so what his mark would actually be is closer to -10*.
All of this is dependent on what is set on the Haltech with the ignition locked, so without that this is irrelevant.
Personally, I'd throw the timing light on L1, lock the Leading Timing at -5* with 15* split, and then dial in the FFE Trigger Wheel to the Arrow center-punching the sensor.
Next, I'd go off the original -5* location and see the difference of the two values. It's more possible that the FFE wheel was marked wrong than the factory timing notch, so I'd run the car on the factory timing notch.
Then move the timing light to T1 and see that it's on the other factory timing notch to the left.
Factory Mark is at -5 ATDC and -20 ATDC, so what his mark would actually be is closer to -10*.
All of this is dependent on what is set on the Haltech with the ignition locked, so without that this is irrelevant.
Personally, I'd throw the timing light on L1, lock the Leading Timing at -5* with 15* split, and then dial in the FFE Trigger Wheel to the Arrow center-punching the sensor.
Next, I'd go off the original -5* location and see the difference of the two values. It's more possible that the FFE wheel was marked wrong than the factory timing notch, so I'd run the car on the factory timing notch.
Then move the timing light to T1 and see that it's on the other factory timing notch to the left.
That is the great debate. Is the factory wheel marked correctly or is the FFE Wheel.
That is the great debate. Is the factory wheel marked correctly or is the FFE Wheel.
It's irrelevant.
Your tuner should understand how to optimize an engine properly.
That being said, I'd always default to the Factory Mazda wheel if I didn't have an engine builder to mark true TDC when the engine was being assembled (which is never - they always do this).
One other possibility is your sensor mounting location shifted due to some external circumstances or FFE sent the wrong spacing somehow, which I seriously doubt.
Your tuner should understand how to optimize an engine properly.
That being said, I'd always default to the Factory Mazda wheel if I didn't have an engine builder to mark true TDC when the engine was being assembled (which is never - they always do this).
Gucci,
My tuner is not in-person sadly. We are running within the recommended degrees of offset. I made that mark on the pulley when I assembled the motor and checked the FFE arrow. That is why im having a hard time accepting the factory marks.
Have you tried the method shown in the video below for finding TDC? It's not perfect, but using a screwdriver in the leading & trailing plug holes to check the distance to the rotor face should tell you which of your two marks is TDC and which is -10 degrees.
It was difficult to get a good video of the timing flashing but I did my best.
I locked the timing at 0 and -10 and then checked timing. in the video you can see that the first check which is the trailing is to the left of the very clearly defined notch, this is the notch I made from the FFE wheel for true TDC. The second check is the leading and it is right on the notch but the angle of the video does skew it. The engine rpm did drop once the lock was applied. I did rev to check for drift and it didn't move at all.
The trigger wheel and sensor position doesn't matter if the kit doesn't have a pointer for a spot on the trigger wheel. If it lined up on the factory mark at -5° leading and -20° trailing on the pulley, you're good as long as that's the pulley for that engine. So if you're good, then something else is your issue. It wouldn't hurt to datalog the crank signal and see if errors pop up or if weird stuff happens as well.
Your timing should be locked at -5* and 15* split to hit the factory marks on Leading and Trailing respectively. Done.
Gucci,
You have persuaded me. This evening I adjusted the timing to the factory marks. This resulted in an offset value of 52 rather than 61. The car does run much smoother in the rpm range and doesn't engine brake as much when I let off the gas. I also noticed that my cruise egts went down about 150F. The turbo does spool a little slower.
I beat the **** out of the car after changing the timing. It ran richer than usual. The car still idles and hot starts the same but a little different due to the advance.
Maybe I was running the car ~10 retarded across the board and then with the conservative timing was too retarded?
Ill be ripping on her the next couple of nights trying to break it. Hopefully the proper timing is what it needed?......
The trigger wheel and sensor position doesn't matter if the kit doesn't have a pointer for a spot on the trigger wheel. If it lined up on the factory mark at -5° leading and -20° trailing on the pulley, you're good as long as that's the pulley for that engine. So if you're good, then something else is your issue. It wouldn't hurt to datalog the crank signal and see if errors pop up or if weird stuff happens as well.
Not getting any logged trigger sync errors. I'm not sure if the pulley is for the engine as its been through several rebuilds not all in my care.
The actual wheel position and software offset doesn't matter (beyond trying to avoid missing tooth in actual firing range for timing accuracy) as long as timing numbers actually match reality, which it now appears to. Just be mindful you aren't over advanced anywhere now.
You have persuaded me. This evening I adjusted the timing to the factory marks. This resulted in an offset value of 52 rather than 61. The car does run much smoother in the rpm range and doesn't engine brake as much when I let off the gas. I also noticed that my cruise egts went down about 150F. The turbo does spool a little slower.
I beat the **** out of the car after changing the timing. It ran richer than usual. The car still idles and hot starts the same but a little different due to the advance.
Maybe I was running the car ~10 retarded across the board and then with the conservative timing was too retarded?
Ill be ripping on her the next couple of nights trying to break it. Hopefully the proper timing is what it needed?......
So... Does this mean the warping was, in the end, due to the retard being more than you thought it was, causing excess heat and high EGTs due to all that unburnt fuel?
(though having the side effect of really good turbo response?)
Or is it just one potential factor?
How many times have you taken the engine apart since this thread started?
So... Does this mean the warping was, in the end, due to the retard being more than you thought it was, causing excess heat and high EGTs due to all that unburnt fuel?
(though having the side effect of really good turbo response?)
Or is it just one potential factor?
How many times have you taken the engine apart since this thread started?
I started the car this morning and it started and idled as expected. I will continue to heavily load it the next few days and test.
I think that yes the timing was too retarded causing my actual timing in boost to basically be -0 and -10. I am running about 12 degrees at 12 psi. But in reality it was offset by the trigger angle difference.
The turbo response was wild. It defiantly spools slower. Kind-of miss it.
Yes it also could just be one potential factor. I will continue to test.
Since the thread started here is what has happened: Warped Original E and J build with brand new housings and plates, Full rebuild all new springs seals oil controls etc. Switched to RA and upgraded exhaust manifold for flow and got EGT sensors and warped again, Did another full rebuild, during 3rd build Apex seal corners popped out and had to re-do because torque measured to turn over engine was too high. Re assembled again and no corner seal popping issues and upgraded to elite 1500 and pre-terminated harness. Had rear main seal leak. Pulled engine 2 times to fix rear main seal leak....here we are
Last edited by Michael Mansour; 07-07-23 at 08:07 AM.
Fingers crossed for you as 10 degrees is a massive difference. You can play with retarding timing and using the ignition decay system specifically in the transient throttle section to help with the spool up and if you are using open loop duty cycle tables for boost control, you can set your cruise and light throttle percentages to 100% to help as well.
Fingers crossed for you as 10 degrees is a massive difference. You can play with retarding timing and using the ignition decay system specifically in the transient throttle section to help with the spool up and if you are using open loop duty cycle tables for boost control, you can set your cruise and light throttle percentages to 100% to help as well.
Newt, yes 10 degrees is alot...it will either go or blow.
Right now I have no boost controller, just a direct line to the gates. I can live with less spool if it can spool for more than 2 weeks lol. Testing will continue today after work.
Took the car out for another ride this evening. Man its smooooth with the factory timing. No issues after some heavy load.....time will tell
Any chance that without the excessive heat the seals will eventually wear flat again? Maybe reduce the premix slightly and go for a 1000-miles road trip of exclusively highway driving, no boost … hehehe
Been ripping on it all weekend and everything seems to be holding up. Checked comp again this evening and nothing has changed on the rear or front rotor. Same psi as before. Will keep testing and report back
FYI, just an idea of how much the stock timing marks can be out depending on engine. I've tested two 13B REW's with this tool and FFE trigger wheels and they were both the exact same, didn't actually need any offset in my ECU at all as FFE had TDC bang on. But watching this video I get a feeling that FC pulley marks maybe vary greater.
FYI, just an idea of how much the stock timing marks can be out depending on engine. I've tested two 13B REW's with this tool and FFE trigger wheels and they were both the exact same, didn't actually need any offset in my ECU at all as FFE had TDC bang on. But watching this video I get a feeling that FC pulley marks maybe vary greater.
I have been using my FFE wheel indicator for the past engines and have not had success. I am now testing with the factory marks to see what results I get.
Thank you,
Michael
Edit: if you watch his video closely it is the actual hub that is incorrect. Notice that the bolt holes are in a different orientation on the "incorrect" hub/pulley combo vs the good one
Last edited by Michael Mansour; 07-10-23 at 11:28 AM.
Yeah sounds like maybe there is an issue with your FFE..... I wasn't suggesting you're timing isn't more accurate now, more or less just hoping to show how much the timing marks can be out from the factory as something to be aware of.
FYI, just an idea of how much the stock timing marks can be out depending on engine. I've tested two 13B REW's with this tool and FFE trigger wheels and they were both the exact same, didn't actually need any offset in my ECU at all as FFE had TDC bang on. But watching this video I get a feeling that FC pulley marks maybe vary greater.
I like some of the products that JBR puts out, and I also confirm TDC on my pulleys before assembly - HOWEVER - I've only had to get into the habit of this due to half of my builds using single piece machined pulleys either from Mazda Comp or a couple other vendors having differing amounts of QC/how they set up their markings. I have never seen nearly the discrepancy that JBR is pointing out using a stock hub and pulley so long as no fuckery for previous fitment has been done. Not saying it can't happen, just point out that this may be a bit of cherry picked extreme - at least in my opinion.
which is why high performance engines should be blueprinted rather than just tossed together like a pile of legos.
as Howard Coleman and others have tried to educate this forum on.
it doesn’t matter if it’s only 1 out of 100, if you happen to get that one part that fell through the cracks and didn’t check it then your moment in the sun can go to hell in a hand basket very quickly.
.. and as I recall Jesse, it wasn’t actually dead on …
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07-05-23, 03:36 PM
