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Thank you Howard and Slides for your replies. I did several things in attempts to diagnose my fueling issue without a digital fuel pressure gauge.
I verified my pump wiring, ground has a 10gauge going direct to battery and power is through a fused 30/40 amp relay, all 10 gauge wire.
Changed my fuel filter. Which looked like it needed a changing.
I also removed my paralell fuel rail config and went back to the stock series layout. I do have a radium FPD that is plumbed inline before the primary rail.
I verified that my secondary's were plugged in the correct order and that they were receiving power as expected.
Checked my dead times in the ECU.
Went out for a test with no difference. Still leaning out right when the secondaries are supposed to be kicking in. See log below:
These are brand new ID 1700XDS injectors for the secondaries. When doing an injector test in the adaptronic software i get 2 different lines for the primary and secondary. I have noticed this for a long time, even with my identical set of 1050x injectors they had different test results. Even after the new wiring harness it still had the different result...Beginning to think the ECU has bad drives or needs to be replaced with something more modern that can take the 1700xds as I could not set the dead times high enough in the low voltage areas (7-9 volts) due to maxing out the value. 1050X 1700XDS
fortunately don't know much about adaptronic but it appears to be a settings issue relating to the point where the secondaries kick in. because the secondaries are further away from the rotors there is a time lag compared to the primaries. if you were to drop the primaries at the same time as you open the secondaries there would be a lack of fuel to the motor. because of this there is/should be a setting to crank up the primaries during the secondary lag period. if this setting isn't right you will get a momentary lean condition at the transition..
Can you adjust the ECU settings so the secondary injectors start operating at a low RPM and lower load, so the engine doesn't experience as much heat if it runs lean when they are starting to spray? For instance, I wouldn't be concerned to see the AFR 0.5 or 1.0 points too lean at atmospheric pressure before the engine gets into boost. Can you intentionally activate the secondaries that early, rather than relying on high duty cycle from the primaries to turn them on? If you look closely at the factory 13BREW throttle blades, the secondary intake runners will have airflow at about 40% throttle so I think it makes sense to add a matching amount of fuel to mix with that air.
If you don't have that much control of the secondary fuel settings, can you at least increase the secondary deadtimes and decrease their flow rates so the ECU uses a larger secondary pulsewidth when they are first turning on?
Andy did a lot of personal testing on his 13bt converted miata and with Ric Shaw on renesis motors, if set up correctly the fuel model should be pretty hard to beat. There must be something not right in a setting somewhere, you are talking about a guy who set up his own fuel flow bench and characterised injectors and the pressure flow relationship of multiple common FPRs for himself, Haltech bought him out because his fuel model was better than what they had.
Thank you all for your replies. I have increased fueling there about 10-15% without a noticeable change in AFR which is why I am investigating all of these other possibilities.
Originally Posted by Slides
Andy did a lot of personal testing on his 13bt converted miata and with Ric Shaw on renesis motors, if set up correctly the fuel model should be pretty hard to beat. There must be something not right in a setting somewhere, you are talking about a guy who set up his own fuel flow bench and characterised injectors and the pressure flow relationship of multiple common FPRs for himself, Haltech bought him out because his fuel model was better than what they had.
I agree with this statement, the primary to secondary transition in the Adaptronic has always been flawless and required minimal/no configuration. I'm wondering if my old ECU is having some sort of circuit board componentry failure. It is from 2016, and I've noticed has one odd electrical issue. The injectors will fire when I plug in the TPS. I've noticed this for some time and had issues with my stock tps which is why I switched to the JDL full range tps. This happened on my OEM harness as well as the stripped down version that I made myself (I was hoping id fix it with the harness). I'm going to try changing the fuel pump as I found its sock quite dirty (test drive after cleaning had same lean out) and then will be looking at the ECU for possible fault.
fortunately don't know much about adaptronic but it appears to be a settings issue relating to the point where the secondaries kick in. because the secondaries are further away from the rotors there is a time lag compared to the primaries. if you were to drop the primaries at the same time as you open the secondaries there would be a lack of fuel to the motor. because of this there is/should be a setting to crank up the primaries during the secondary lag period. if this setting isn't right you will get a momentary lean condition at the transition..
The primarys just hold at the high duty cycle while the secondarys ramp in they do not reduce their MS. The lack of fueling is coming as the primarys max out and either the secondary's aren't spraying or the pump flow is dropping...Need the fuel pressure readout under load in cabin to see if its flow but if its not pump failure then I'm lead to the computer.
After driving the car for a couple of hundred miles I did not like watching the EGTs constantly be different and couldn't help but think of what else I had hurt inside of the motor. So I took it out and yes I have "bananad" the rear apex seals again / wore them in the center but not as badly as last time on the E and J. I would also like to note that the apex seal was about .1mm shorter than a brand new one after ~1300 miles and the E and J one was down about .5 mm in that same time. RA classics are definitely harder but still "bend" which is nice. I will be cleaning the rotor housings and will be posting pictures of the wear. Nothing that seems out of the ordinary to me. No massive scratches or scores into the housing from the seals. I will upload pictures when I've cleaned things up. That will also be the time to decide if I want to go with the RA seals again. I did like the apex seal height wear amount given the hours of runtime but I want to make sure the housings aren't suffering too hard for it.
I am also working on getting a new wiring harness and haltech 1500 for the vehicle.
so 3000rpm cruise, AFR is ~14:1 give or take, and EGT will be about 720-740c
my tuning runs have found a low throttle misfire, its not really noticeable to me, but it is throwing off the O2 sensor and the ECU catches it
WOT at about 7psi, 6800rpm, is like 820-840c. target is about 11.3:1 AFR
i think once i figure out the misfire thing, cruise EGT would come up, but TBD on that
so 3000rpm cruise, AFR is ~14:1 give or take, and EGT will be about 720-740c
my tuning runs have found a low throttle misfire, its not really noticeable to me, but it is throwing off the O2 sensor and the ECU catches it
WOT at about 7psi, 6800rpm, is like 820-840c. target is about 11.3:1 AFR
i think once i figure out the misfire thing, cruise EGT would come up, but TBD on that
J9fd3s,
Thank you for the data. Those egts are so cool. is it pre or post turbo?
the WOT seems a bit cool, but its only 7psi, so maybe it makes sense. if i pull some timing, and/or add fuel, egts will come up, ive seen over 900c before
Below is a picture of one of the housings after being ran with the RA Classic seals. Please refer to my original image/post to see the condition of the housing after the E and J seals. These were brand new housings when I originally ran the E and J seals.
I am quite happy with the housing wear given the seals ran for about the same amount of time. Yes it is not a polished shiny chrome surface but there aren't any scratches or nicks in the chroming that can catch my fingernail. There also aren't massive lines gouged into the housing either. Granted both seals were only ran for ~1200 miles, but I'm still under the impression I would have seen more wear in this timeframe if the RA seals were as damaging as some other posters on here say.
For measurements the RA classics lost .08 mm in height over the duration of its runtime. A far cry from the E and J .5mm over that same runtime. I will go back with RA Classic seals due to the wear characteristics of the seal. I will take a harder seal over a longer housing life because the motor outlasting the housings would be optimal and would take some period of time. Based on the calculated wear rates of the E and J the apex seals would have worn out long before any other parts saw significant wear.
Disregard the 9 heat range plug i only put it in there after compression testing to make sure it stayed clean
I am also working on getting a new wiring harness and haltech 1500 for the vehicle.
I'll be very curious to see if the ECU change has any effect on things. I'm following you closely as I'm about 1 or 2 steps behind you only and our setups are so similar. My engine should be back in the car in the next month or so; praying I don't see any apex seal wear on the rear only again!
Update, redid the motor with all new springs and seals again. OEM water jackets, OEM Apex seal springs, and this time OEM corner seals with the rubber inserts. Went back with the RA Classics. Still need to set end float but everything spins freely with the usual chugs. There will be some time before the next update as haltech equipment costs an arm and a leg :$
Im going with the Haltech preterminated harness, elite 1500, haltech WB02 controller, fuel press, oil press, MAP, IAT, Coolant, TPS. The expansion of the haltech looks quite interesting but I will be needing someone who can assist on the base configuration for trigger and injector setup.
Got it all back put in the car. I figured I would start and run it on my old ECU/harness to make sure I didn't foobar anything with the engine. She started up on the second crank and I was able to drive it to the gas station with no issues! I'll probably run it on the old ECU/harness for break in and while I'm gathering parts. Boost cut set at 1 psi for the rest of the ecus life
So nice to see the EGTs back where they're supposed to be without the excessive difference. Still waiting on the harness and elite 1500 to arrive. All of my sensors came in and CAN wideband02! We're getting closer.
Well it seems I had foobard something. Nothing major but there was a small oil leak coming from inbetween the trans and rear iron. I went ahead and removed the engine and replaced the rear stat gear oring and gave it some RTV. I also changed all 16 orings on the chips motorsports studs and also used some RTV to lubricate/seal them in. I then put the motor back in and I found the exact same oil leak...... grrr..... So i took the motor back out and replaced the rear main seal which was not an authentic NDK part. I replaced it with an authentic NDK part and also used some RTV on the landing that the seal is pressed into. The rtvs purpose is to seal as well as ensure the seal slid in with no ripping or anything like that. Motor is back in the car and will be testing to see if the leak is present later on this afternoon/tomorrow. Want to give it as much time to dry as possible.
Original Seal is the first picture, the second one you can see the grey ring around the outside of the seal
I also changed all 16 orings on the chips motorsports studs and also used some RTV to lubricate/seal them in.
These only seal coolant, not oil; but as an FYI, the Turblown instructions for their stud kit tell you to RTV the sealing washer prior to installing the nut. I did a coolant leakdown test on my engine with compressed air and found I didn't have enough RTV on one of my washers and it was leaking there (found with soapy water). I re-RTV'd it and the engine held air for well over 36 hours without the gauge needle moving even the slightest.
I've seen lots of guys try and use the Rx8 rear main seal here too and they always seem to form a leak eventually. Always recommend using factory rear main seal here, its quite a bit wider/thicker than the Rx8 one. I believe I used some loctite on mine rather than RTV but same idea.
These only seal coolant, not oil; but as an FYI, the Turblown instructions for their stud kit tell you to RTV the sealing washer prior to installing the nut. I did a coolant leakdown test on my engine with compressed air and found I didn't have enough RTV on one of my washers and it was leaking there (found with soapy water). I re-RTV'd it and the engine held air for well over 36 hours without the gauge needle moving even the slightest.
I've seen lots of guys try and use the Rx8 rear main seal here too and they always seem to form a leak eventually. Always recommend using factory rear main seal here, its quite a bit wider/thicker than the Rx8 one. I believe I used some loctite on mine rather than RTV but same idea.
Machine,
Thank you for the input, on the Chips studs it is a smooth machined surface and I have not needed rtv in the past. I just put as an additional precaution. Also yes only coolant would leak from studs.
As you can tell by the pictures i am using an NDK Orange RX7 one and not the maroon rx8. Hopefully itll be sealed once and for all!
Yes, correct wasn't implying yours was Rx8, mainly just emphasizing that the stock seal is the only one I fully trust. Hope you've got it sorted now! Are you still waiting for your Haltech equipment?
Yes, correct wasn't implying yours was Rx8, mainly just emphasizing that the stock seal is the only one I fully trust. Hope you've got it sorted now! Are you still waiting for your Haltech equipment?
Yessir gotta keep those rx8 seals away!
I have received my haltech pre-terminated harness and all of the sensors. I'll be working on the sensor clips and making sure everything is ready as long as my oil leak is gone!
its weird, the Rx8 seal works fine in the Rx8, 266,000, failure rate near zero.
but put it in the Rx7, and failure rate jumps. it seems like it was able to spin with the flywheel. the one i did caught on fire, which was interesting.
its weird, the Rx8 seal works fine in the Rx8, 266,000, failure rate near zero.
but put it in the Rx7, and failure rate jumps. it seems like it was able to spin with the flywheel. the one i did caught on fire, which was interesting.
I did have an rx8 one on my table and I tested it on the flywheel. It seemed to grab the flywheel much harder and required more force to pull off vs the orange rx7 one. Maybe it clamps too tight...
Update:
I started the car this evening and no leak!!! I took it on about a 100 mile drive and she's dry as a bone. Now it's time for the haltech goodies. Pictures to come
04-17-23, 07:57 AM
