TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Hello all. I bought another FC the other day, but it has an ebay special xs power turbo on it. (eek)

It has the HKS/Greddy Manifold. (http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/hk...-95%20rx-7.htm)

And the trust wastegate (Seen here, with the same manifold also. )
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GRedd...spagenameZWDVW

I am looking for basically 300-320 rwhp. I don't need ball bearing, I don't need anything special, just 300 rwhp on pump gas. T04.

Thanks.
~Tweak

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

(by the way sorry, this is on a 13b-re)

Thank you.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

To4E

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Yeup, from all the research I have done the last 24 hours, it all points to t04e. Looks like .57, P trim and I should be good to go. Used ones look quite affordable too! Nice. Thank you.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Any trim to4E will work, smaller you go however the more attention needs to be paid to other details.

Hes got one for sale;
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=744313

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I was looking at compressor maps, and I am a little worried that a to4e might be a little small for a ported 13b-re. I did a little research with the help on the forum, and some compressor maps online.

Mainly from here, http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/compmaps/fig1.html


T04e 60 Trim


60-1


I am a little confused on how important turbo efficiency is. With the to4e, at 15 psi, 50 lb/min it looks as though it would be off the graph/map. With 60-1 at 15 psi it is starting to get more in the center of the map. It looks as though the 60-1 is a t3 so I would not be able to use it with my current turbo manifold. My question is, what is a to4s exactly? Is it a to4e hot side with a 60-1 cold/compressor? Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?

Thanks
~Tweak


(update): I think that our engines might not pull 50 lbs/min... Reading back on some previous posts it looks like some people use 30 when they are choosing a turbo. What do you guys use? 30 would put it right in the perfect place.

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

For your power levels, follow what advise that was given. The T04E 57 or 60 trim with a P-trim turbine wheel and a .81 turbine A/R will be a nice responsive turbo and put you in the 300~320 RWHP running less then 15 psi of boost (10~13 psi will do it granted you have supporting mods like free flowing 3" or bigger exhaust, fuel, intercooling etc.). The 60-1 is a T4 compressor and is larger then any T04E compressor. All T3 and T4 turbo parts are interchangable. Most common are the "T3/T4" turbo's which run T4 compressor wheels with T3 turbines. Those are generally too small for rotaries and are used on smaller dissplacement 4 bangers. And of corse you can run T4 compressors with t4 turbines (Full t4 turbo).

~Mike............

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Ok, Thank you. Will shut up now.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I lied , I have one more question if you don't mind. I have been doing a lot of research, asking people who have had t04e turbos on their rotary powered cars and such, and I recently found someone that loved the turbo, but said it was too small. I am not worried about it's smallness at all, I think it is the perfect size. I have heard that a lot, but this time he said that he had problem with surging. At first I thought... why didn't you have a blow off valve, but he began to explain that the turbo was spooling sooo early, that it was surging the turbo. He said that it would get boost around 3,200 rpm, then loose boost for a second from the surging effect, and then immediately get full boost at 4,000 rpm again. He had a large exhaust and ported REW at that time.

My question is, is there a chance that with my street ported 13b-re, 3.5 inch exhaust, (no cats, or any other restrictions), could also get the surging effect? It is caused by the turbo having too much pressure while the engine is not flowing that much right? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks
~Tweak

(btw, he was .57 P trim, I am looking at getting a .60, P trim, collective. )


Update: Ok I read ReTed's website here (http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/compmap.html) after searching surge limit and what it really is, and I don't quite see how he could have had surge problems with the .57. According to ted the surge problems come around when the turbo is too large, not too small. Maybe ... since the surge he was experiencing was at such low RPM, the boost was too high for the engines flow rate?

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

Your assumptions of surge are somewhat correct for the most part. Surge is anytime the turbo is pumping too much flow/pressure for the engine to injest which causes an oscilation were the pressure builds, then drops, then builds and so on. This could be a large turbo making boost too fast for a small engine to injest, or when the throttle is slammed shut. I have never seen or encountered anyone running medium to small turbo's (GT35R, 60-1,62-1, T04E's etc. and smaller) run into issues with accelerating type surge. The turbo's are simply too small and the 13b moves gobs of air. Maybe the guys tune was off. It sounds like his injector staging was not smooth to me. The surge line of a compressor can be seen on the map. Its the farthest left line were the map begines.

~Mike..........

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Ok, thank you very much. Yeah, I thought it was weird that out of ALL the people I talked to, only one had the problem, so I was pretty sure it was his setup specific. I am getting VERY excited to throw on the t04e on my ported RE and get it tuned by Steve Kan. It's going to be a great upgrade from a 6 port stock turbo running 4 psi! hahaha

Thanks again.
~Tweak

(is it just me or is finding a used t04e, .60 P trim, collective, with a vband out REALLY hard to find? haha I can find tons of .57 though. )

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Took the words right out of my mouth.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

I'll concur with the above. The 57 and 60 trim to4es are great compressors for a street driven rotary. With a p-trim hotside they spool like a stock turbo and flow well enough to easily make the power you're looking for.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Ok, thank you guys, I am DEFINITLY going with a t04e. I started to look at the borgwarner stuff but again realised that the t04e will be just fine.

This looks like the perfect one. Nice price too. Took for ever to find it!

http://partsexpressonline.com/shop/p...a26a046d488981

It says master power ... I hope that isn't a ebay company...

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

Don't buy that, its extremely suspect. The numbers don't match anything and its NOT a Garrett turbo.

Theres no reason to get a "ported shroud" or "anti surge" compressor cover, it kills efficeincy for the sake of a "cool sounding" turbo. Stick with a smooth bell mouth design.

Go with a T04S compressor cover, it has the 4" inlet and 2.5" disscharge with a .7 A/R and flows approx 3~6% more air then the standard T04E compressor cover. the standard T04E compressor cover is fine also, it generally has a 2.75~3" inlet and a 2" disscharge .6 A/R.

I'd stick with "wet" centers (AKA water cooled. oil lub) for longevity and your engine already has water provisions for it.

P-Trim turbine wheel, T4 .81 or .96 A/R collected or .84, or 1.00 A/R divided.

Compressor specs are as follows:

Inducer (minor wheel diameter) 2.290" or 58.166mm

Exducer (major wheel diameter {BTW, if you see MAYOR instead of MAJOR, stay away from the seller. They lost something in translation or they copy and pasted specs from some other retard who misspelled it the first time}) 2.950" or 74.93mm

P-Trim turbine wheel Exducer (Minor wheel diameter) 2.544" or 64.618mm

P-Trim turbine wheel inducer (Major wheel diameter) 2.922" or 74.219mm

Any GARRETT retailer/dealer can build you this, be it Turbonetics, Innovative Turbo Systems (ITS), CHEAPTURBOS.COM, Majestic Turbos, Texas Turbos etc. etc. I stopped selling/building turbo's a while back, but maybe even A-Spec or Turblown can offer you a deal??

Good Luck!

~Mike.........

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Oh wow, awesome! I am glad I posted that, I thought it might have been a little weird also. Ok so instead of looking for one premade perfectly for my setup it looks like I am going to have to get one made for me.

I consider myself a pretty handy person, if I just ordered all the pieces, would I be able to put it all together or would you not recommend that?

Thank you for seriously sitting down and helping me out here. I did not know it was going to be this detailed and hard!
~Tweak

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

Its not hard to asemble a turbo, but the important part is getting it ballanced. when spinning 100,000+ rpm the balance has to be perfect, and youll need a shop to do it for you.

Given your motor, a ported RE and 3.5" exhaust id look seriously closer at something bigger. Id start at a T04s (ie 60-1) with a .96 or 1.0 hotside depending on your manifold. Should be in the sweetspot of the turbo at 13-15psi and happily make a bit more power than t04e without giving up much if any drivability.

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

Building it yourself no biggy, but it should be VSR balanced (automatic machine that balances the rotating assembly assembled DYNAMICALLY). All the parts do already come balanced from the factory, meaning the compressor wheel and the turbine are each statically balanced. And believe it or not, most retailers do just simply assemble them and sell them that way, but the higher end shops do dynamically balance them as an assembly. It will add a great bit of life to the turbo.

Getting a turbo built generally does not cost more then an "off the self" unit because there is no truly "generic" turbo because of the vast differences in engines and specific needs. Call around (notice I said CALL and not email) and get quotes and ask specifically about dynamic balancing when spec-ing your turbo.

The T04E and 60-1 (AKA T04S) actually are very close when it comes to flow and pressure ratios in the 1 bar range giving a bit more flow to the 60-1, but greater efficiency to the T04E past 1 bar, but the flow isn't there. So at one bar, the 60-1 will make slightly more power, but the T04E 60 Trim will spool slightly quicker. Keep in mind, if you don't plan to run above 1 bar (14 psi or so) which you can do safely on pump, then why get a bigger turbo?? The 60-1, 62-1, GT35R, even larger like GT40, T78, T66, T04R, T04Z, ETC. and such all make roughly the same power at 1 bar, the bigger turbos making slightly more, but at the expense of less power under the curve and spool. So if you never intend to run race gas or go through the hassle of aux injection, get the quickest spooling turbo that makes good power at 1 bar......... the rest are for 1 bar or better.
Unless you want to be a dyno queen, be an internet hero, or have small genitalia.... lol...... or you intend to make bigger power and track the car be it road race or strip and turn the wick up (most convince themselves they will, but never do, or they do for 1 dyno run for bragging rights).


~Mike........

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Thank you mike. Just to clarify, is your above specifications your recommended for a turbo considered a t04e, or 60-1 (or just somewhere in between)? Is t04s just another name for 60-1 or are they a little different? I sent out about 20 emails to people all asking for turbo quotes using those specs, and I was wondering, what really I was asking for.

BTW, I said, "I am looking for a T04S compressor cover, it has the 4" inlet and 2.5" discharge with a .7 A/R, with a "wet" center (water cooled, oil lubed), P-trim turbine wheel - T4 .96 A/R COLLECTED, V-band"

I finally understood what you were trying to get through to me with that last post of yours, and I will NOT be going over 1 bar. The only reason I would, would be to do a quick drag. But I will be increasing my meth injection in those few instances to make up for the extra heat from the lower turbo efficiency above 1 bar.

Thanks
~Tweak

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

You need to list the compressor wheel (T04E 57 or 60 trim depending on which you want) when getting quotes and so you get the turbo you actualy want.

T04S is a compressor cover name, but its often used to describe a turbo with a 60-1 compressor wheel. The T04S compressor housing is used on many medium to semi large turbos from the TS04, 60-1, GT35R, 62-1, T61, T63, T04R, T04Z, T66, and a few more. Don't get it confussed with the TS04, which is a different compressor wheel.

Generally, Garrett and Garrett clones are reffered to as first which family the parts reside in. The T04E series are T4 compressor wheels, you'll be using a P-trim turbine which is also a T4, hense its a full T4. If you had a small 4 banger and were running the same T04E compressor, you'd need a T3 turbine to beable to spool it up resonably, therefore it would be a T3/T4. Next, turbo's are generally again, named after which type of compressor wheel they have. Yours is a T04E compressor, in a 60-trim flavor. Best way to describe the turbo woulod be a full T4, T04E 60-trim. More dtail would include, using a T04S compressor cover, wet center, P-Trim T4 turbine, .81 or .96 A/R T4 open valute turbine housing (I'd get the .81 for quick spool and not looking to make huge power).

~Mike................

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I have had a few emails come back saying,

"There is no .7 cover available for the To4E family. I could have a custom one made, but its not worth the extra cost for a few percentage gain in flow. You're right around the $9xx range shipped. Thats with the 3' vband ring welded in, and a 360 thrust bearing upgrade."

Maybe I said something wrong?

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

NO, you did it right. Like I said before, the T04S isnt normally a cover used on T04E compressors. He is right, if they have to charge for custom machining, just go ahead and get the standard T04E compressor cover. Not all shops charge or not charge a lot for machining housings. You best and cheapest route actually is to find desiel shops, call around and ask them to build the turbo for you. They tned to be a lot less money because they don't do "performance" work, and they have access to everythign Garrett offers.

~Mike............

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

You make a few good points, however saying id still lean towards a 60-1 for his application. At 15psi on a ported rotary the 60-1 is going to be right in the middle of where you want it, while the T04E will be on the edge of where you want it. They both will be using the same P-trim exhaust wheel and the compressor wheels are virtually the same 1mm on the inducer and 1.2mm on the exducer but the 60-1 flows about 8lbs/min more and should be no more laggy. All of this should add up to more meat under the curve with cooler intake temps and room for some growth.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

The port that I just sent out my plate for is just an primary small street port. The 13b-re has very small primary, but the secondaries are decent size. So I don't know if you would consider it a real street port or what.

RacerXtreme7

iTrader: (2)

And this is the very reason why I run a 60-1 compressor wheel . I have a BB CHRA and run a GT turbine along with an extrude honed 1.00 A/R turbine housing(the extrude honing effectively makes it a 1.15, but still spool like a 1.00 or smaller) with a 3.5" V-band and plan on running 3.5" Dp to 3.5" Borla X1R, then to dual 2.5" Magna flow resonators to finally two large round muffler out the back (FC). My goal was 400 RWHP with the fastest spool.

The thing is....... his original post was 300-320 RWHP. The T04E is better suited for this in the 8~13 psi range. If he goes ahead and gets the .81 A/R turbine it will spool like a stocker and have nice power from 2K till 8500. It will be a great street car/auto X-er, drifter, and even give a lot of vets and mustangs trouble on the strip / street lights (these are light cars with a nice 4:1 final). An all around fun car. The T04E does spool faster, its not just inducer and exducer measurements, if you look at the 60-1 and T04E side by side you'll see the angle of attack on the 60-1 has a whole lot more bite to it. Simular comparison to pitch in boat props. One reason the 60-1 isn't a high pressure turbo, geared more toward flow.

Will he get the itch and want more power?? Maybe, but the T04E will still run up to 15 psi and still be near 400 RWHP safely without super high intake temps. Now if he asked for the quickest spooling 400 HP club turbo on a budget, then I would have said the 60-1/62-1 or "blowzilla". If he had a bigger budget, I'd say GT35R T4, or A-Spec's 500R.

~Mike.............