t3 vs t4 volute a/r sizing
04-27-16, 06:30 PM
#26
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I'm sure I'll come up with a solution somehow.......one that's not chinese 
04-27-16, 08:36 PM
#28
WANKfactor Im not even sure thats a china charger. Legend has it he sold off kinugawa and started up mambatek. Apparently a japanese company with some manufacturing in taiwan. Quality is supposed to be ok.
Taiwan's official name is Republic of China (ROC).
Now, their manufacturing is a step above mainland China (People's Republic of China), but I still think a Garrett knock off made in ROC qualifies as a China-charger. They don't even have the decency to say "Garrett GT3582R style" turbocharger.
And yes, Kinugawa and Mamba sites look like mirror sites.
Kinugawa = China-charger, Mamba = China-charger, Master Power= China-charger, etc = China-charger.
2Lucky2tha7
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
^^^ or roll the dice on a China-charger.
The high altitude will really put it to the test!
Lol! C'mon BlueTII, I know I'm on a budget and all, but even the mention of one of those timed hand grenades coming from you? You know better than that I'm sure I'll come up with a solution somehow.......one that's not chinese
Yeah, that wasn't a endorsement. Just commenting on what was posted above my comment there.
Taiwan's official name is Republic of China (ROC).
Now, their manufacturing is a step above mainland China (People's Republic of China), but I still think a Garrett knock off made in ROC qualifies as a China-charger. They don't even have the decency to say "Garrett GT3582R style" turbocharger.
And yes, Kinugawa and Mamba sites look like mirror sites.
Kinugawa = China-charger, Mamba = China-charger, Master Power= China-charger, etc = China-charger.
2Lucky2tha7
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
^^^ or roll the dice on a China-charger.
The high altitude will really put it to the test!
Lol! C'mon BlueTII, I know I'm on a budget and all, but even the mention of one of those timed hand grenades coming from you? You know better than that I'm sure I'll come up with a solution somehow.......one that's not chinese
Yeah, that wasn't a endorsement. Just commenting on what was posted above my comment there.
04-27-16, 08:44 PM
#29
Taiwan makes some good stuff these days. Last i heard they're pushing to become their own sovereign state, so theydont see themselves as chinese, but yes you have a point. Its still a rip off.
I actually bought a gt2554r from them for my diesel the other day.
Will report back with quality report when it finally comes in if you like.
Also, just sayin, a small ar gt/gtx35 would probably fit the high altitude, moderate power goal.
I actually bought a gt2554r from them for my diesel the other day.
Will report back with quality report when it finally comes in if you like.
Also, just sayin, a small ar gt/gtx35 would probably fit the high altitude, moderate power goal.
04-28-16, 01:28 PM
#31
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Basing off of what I have heard from others so far and from what I have read about, it seems that perhaps something within the range of roughly having a 57mm(?) - 61mm(?) compressor inducer would work best - however, that I should find something that has a larger compressor exducer than 76mm (3"). It seems I should find something that's more like 80mm or so. I recall reading somewhere on this forum that at higher altitude, one should stay with the current size inducer, but would need a larger exducer and thus giving it a smaller trim and in turn a larger exducer keeping it from getting maxxed out too soon. It sounds like the newer Garrett turbos are sized this way, but just with a smaller turbine wheel...and usually relatively pricey.
And yeah, I have seen a few sites dissecting the Chinese/knockoff turbos and pointing out all the areas that either the materials used or quality control being huge issues. I recall seeing a picture from a Chinese turbo factory that said that a 90% success rate with turbos was their goal.
And yeah, I have seen a few sites dissecting the Chinese/knockoff turbos and pointing out all the areas that either the materials used or quality control being huge issues. I recall seeing a picture from a Chinese turbo factory that said that a 90% success rate with turbos was their goal.
Last edited by 2Lucky2tha7; 04-28-16 at 01:31 PM.
04-28-16, 07:39 PM
#32
Although the big P trim is nice and all, people have been making 400 horse at the treads on gt35 since adam was a boy.
Given your modest power goals and high altitude and need for broad delivery id say dont rule it out.
Not knocking, but going from 330rw insta-spool hybrid to tdx61 in my fb i found it too laggy for my liking even though it made boost at 3500 the response wasnt there. Ended up going efr8375 which is awesome and everything but probably over kill and more than i need and originally planned on.
The s3 diff with torsen is holding up to the uncorrected 400rwh btw, just have to avoid shock load.
Given your modest power goals and high altitude and need for broad delivery id say dont rule it out.
Not knocking, but going from 330rw insta-spool hybrid to tdx61 in my fb i found it too laggy for my liking even though it made boost at 3500 the response wasnt there. Ended up going efr8375 which is awesome and everything but probably over kill and more than i need and originally planned on.
The s3 diff with torsen is holding up to the uncorrected 400rwh btw, just have to avoid shock load.
04-29-16, 01:47 AM
#33
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Although the big P trim is nice and all, people have been making 400 horse at the treads on gt35 since adam was a boy.
Given your modest power goals and high altitude and need for broad delivery id say dont rule it out.
Not knocking, but going from 330rw insta-spool hybrid to tdx61 in my fb i found it too laggy for my liking even though it made boost at 3500 the response wasnt there. Ended up going efr8375 which is awesome and everything but probably over kill and more than i need and originally planned on.
The s3 diff with torsen is holding up to the uncorrected 400rwh btw, just have to avoid shock load.
Given your modest power goals and high altitude and need for broad delivery id say dont rule it out.
Not knocking, but going from 330rw insta-spool hybrid to tdx61 in my fb i found it too laggy for my liking even though it made boost at 3500 the response wasnt there. Ended up going efr8375 which is awesome and everything but probably over kill and more than i need and originally planned on.
The s3 diff with torsen is holding up to the uncorrected 400rwh btw, just have to avoid shock load.
That being said, since coming across this graph on the Full-Race website.....
http://www.full-race.com/store/image...-content-4.jpg
I've decided I'm just gonna have to find a way to fit either an S300SX (8375) or S300SX-E (8376) into the engine bay, as well as decide whether to use the undivided 0.88 A/R or divided 0.91 A/R housing (I think the 1.00 is just gonna make spoolup even laggier at this point :/ )
I really wanted to make the s200SXE (7670) work, but I guess it's just not do-able.
And honestly, the s300 series just feels like too much turbo for low to mid 300 rwhp...
04-29-16, 02:21 AM
#34
Keep playing with matchbot and the garret one "boost selector"
Both have altitude or barometric pressure as an input. the bw one will give you a guidline on turbine a/r and wheel combos, the garret one will spit out a bunch of turbos that will work. Can overlay garret compressor maps onto the BW matchbot plots to get a fuller idea. Between the two of them it might open up options that havent been mentioned yet and open up the second hand search criteria a bit.
Edit. Just had a play on matchbot. Like you say, 7670/s200 compressor too small at 15psi/ 6000ft and seems .86/70mm turbine is ideal without tinkering too much, but couldnt get it to go much smaller on the expantion ratio (bigger on the hotside) ignore the 500hp, that corrects down to what you were aiming for for rotary engine.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot/index.html
Both have altitude or barometric pressure as an input. the bw one will give you a guidline on turbine a/r and wheel combos, the garret one will spit out a bunch of turbos that will work. Can overlay garret compressor maps onto the BW matchbot plots to get a fuller idea. Between the two of them it might open up options that havent been mentioned yet and open up the second hand search criteria a bit.
Edit. Just had a play on matchbot. Like you say, 7670/s200 compressor too small at 15psi/ 6000ft and seems .86/70mm turbine is ideal without tinkering too much, but couldnt get it to go much smaller on the expantion ratio (bigger on the hotside) ignore the 500hp, that corrects down to what you were aiming for for rotary engine.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot/index.html
Last edited by WANKfactor; 04-29-16 at 03:43 AM.
04-29-16, 07:41 AM
#35
you can run the 7670 sized turbo's, they do work, they just beat the turbo up at top end and are out of their efficiency range.
speedjunkie ran his, and I tuned 15U's with a 60-1 57mm compressor wheel and it worked fine. you won't know how much the top end is holding you back till you get in a car with a larger turbo.
so you can run it, it just pushes the turbo.
speedjunkie ran his, and I tuned 15U's with a 60-1 57mm compressor wheel and it worked fine. you won't know how much the top end is holding you back till you get in a car with a larger turbo.
so you can run it, it just pushes the turbo.
04-29-16, 12:07 PM
#36
Tuning4life you can run the 7670 sized turbo's, they do work, they just beat the turbo up at top end and are out of their efficiency range.
Exactly, most the tuned turbo cars are using the puny stock turbo with mods and the boost turned up and WAAAAAAAAAAY out of their efficiency range.
A smaller turbo like the 57/76mm compressor is a step above pushing a stock turbo, but a step below the best fit turbo ignoring spool/drive-ability.
-------
Now, I am sure you are thinking- but the EFR 8374 has shown spool almost exactly as good as the EFR 7670.
Yes, but that is down to a couple of factors unique to the EFR series that won't carry over to the standard exhaust wheel/journal bearing turbos being discussed in this thread.
The lighter exhaust wheel is a factor even between the EFR 7670 and EFR 8374 since BW says the larger the exhaust wheel the more effect on spool it has.
There is also the fact that partially because of this the 2 rotor can spool the 8374 to the edge of surge on the compressor map. No one has spooled the EFR 7670 to the edge of surge on its map to take advantage of the smaller compressor. It would take a quick spool manifold or something.
---------
So, to recap- there will be a noticeable drop in response and spool going up from a 76mm exducer journal bearing standard exhaust wheel turbo to the same tech turbo with 82mm exducer.
That we have learned over the last 30 years using these standard turbos and nothing has changed.
Exactly, most the tuned turbo cars are using the puny stock turbo with mods and the boost turned up and WAAAAAAAAAAY out of their efficiency range.
A smaller turbo like the 57/76mm compressor is a step above pushing a stock turbo, but a step below the best fit turbo ignoring spool/drive-ability.
-------
Now, I am sure you are thinking- but the EFR 8374 has shown spool almost exactly as good as the EFR 7670.
Yes, but that is down to a couple of factors unique to the EFR series that won't carry over to the standard exhaust wheel/journal bearing turbos being discussed in this thread.
The lighter exhaust wheel is a factor even between the EFR 7670 and EFR 8374 since BW says the larger the exhaust wheel the more effect on spool it has.
There is also the fact that partially because of this the 2 rotor can spool the 8374 to the edge of surge on the compressor map. No one has spooled the EFR 7670 to the edge of surge on its map to take advantage of the smaller compressor. It would take a quick spool manifold or something.
---------
So, to recap- there will be a noticeable drop in response and spool going up from a 76mm exducer journal bearing standard exhaust wheel turbo to the same tech turbo with 82mm exducer.
That we have learned over the last 30 years using these standard turbos and nothing has changed.
05-03-16, 02:13 PM
#39
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Just an update so far:
A good friend of mine (and fellow forum member on here) is selling my brother and I his old custom divided tubular manifold and Tial 44mm wastegate, and this will greatly help the situation. That being said, since I don't want the possibility of burning out a 7670 sxe turbo (and better matching a turbo for this engine), the choice now is between either the s360SX or the s362SXE (FMW) turbo. Either one would get the 0.91 A/R divided turbine housing. I know the SXE models are much better than the SX models in many aspects (or all aspects), but I can't find any info online in comparing the two regarding real world experience. Is there much difference in terms of spool and responsiveness between the two? It sounds like the s362SXE is best between roughly 15-25 psi (?), and the s360's range is lower than that (?). I know these turbos can handle 30+psi, but just looking for which one would give the more responsive/ widest powerband. And although this is a moot point, it sounds like the SXE (FMW) models have a much more silent compressor wheel - which is a shame because I love the sound of a turbo spooling up...
Lastly, my brother and I talked about upgrading the drivetrain as well in order to support higher horsepower. So it looks like we'll be looking into doing a TII trans conversion, custom driveshaft, and Ford 8.8" rear axle (or the Toyota 8" rear axle due to weight/ weight distribution).
A good friend of mine (and fellow forum member on here) is selling my brother and I his old custom divided tubular manifold and Tial 44mm wastegate, and this will greatly help the situation. That being said, since I don't want the possibility of burning out a 7670 sxe turbo (and better matching a turbo for this engine), the choice now is between either the s360SX or the s362SXE (FMW) turbo. Either one would get the 0.91 A/R divided turbine housing. I know the SXE models are much better than the SX models in many aspects (or all aspects), but I can't find any info online in comparing the two regarding real world experience. Is there much difference in terms of spool and responsiveness between the two? It sounds like the s362SXE is best between roughly 15-25 psi (?), and the s360's range is lower than that (?). I know these turbos can handle 30+psi, but just looking for which one would give the more responsive/ widest powerband. And although this is a moot point, it sounds like the SXE (FMW) models have a much more silent compressor wheel - which is a shame because I love the sound of a turbo spooling up...
Lastly, my brother and I talked about upgrading the drivetrain as well in order to support higher horsepower. So it looks like we'll be looking into doing a TII trans conversion, custom driveshaft, and Ford 8.8" rear axle (or the Toyota 8" rear axle due to weight/ weight distribution).
Last edited by 2Lucky2tha7; 05-03-16 at 02:35 PM.
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