Single Turbo setup Very Low WHP!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington
Single Turbo setup Very Low WHP!!!
Hello everyone, I have a question regarding my new engine setup. I just went single turbo in my FD with all the upgrades needed for the change of course. The problem is that the car is not producing even close to the power it should be producing.
Some background on the motor: The engine used to be stock internally but had the PFC computer, turbos were non sequential, had Apexi Power intake, greddy elbow, ACT SS clutch and 9 lbs. flywheel and a couple other things I dont remeber now. It was maybe between 280 and 300 whp at 12.5 psi.
Now, the car went a single turbo transformation like many others, very large streetport, GT35R turbo (new), A-spec kit exhaust manifolds and tial wastegate, 850 and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, koyo radiator, FDNewbie oil coolers, supra denso fuel pump, twin power ignition, zeitronix wideband and AFR, underdrive pulleys, A/C was removed and VERY IMPORTANT Aquamist HFS-5 Water/Meth injection that is pretty much the top of the line they have and is spraying 50/50.
After all this, the car is putting out barely 310 whp at almost 15 psi. And when the boost gets raised to 20 psi, the power barely touches 370 whp and the intake charge temp raises almost to 135 so its way too hot.
I know that the turbo is sized correctly, its a GT35R with a 1.00 a/r hot side and a .70 compressor. So it may be maxing out after 20 psi but not at 15. As for the intercooler, I know is not the biggest I can use but it should be more than ok for those power levels right?
The temperature before and after the intercooler seems to not change much, that could be some of the problems but I dont understand why would that be if it was working ok before with the stock one that is 4 times smaller. Also when the exhaust gets disconnected from the turbo, the engine picks up another 27 whp. So the exhaust is restricting too.
But the main problem I have is: Why is it (with all the restrictions from the intercooler and the exhaust) getting pretty much the same numbers as before the transformation while having now a large porting job, bigger intercooler, bigger turbo, etc.???
Another small question I have is: I specifically ask for a very large streetport to have an idle close to that of the half-bridge ones and they told me it was no problem that they would do it. But the car now revs smooth even at 900 rpm like if it had a very small porting job. They say it will come alive when the final tunes is made and they correct the AFR in idle. Right now the AFR is where it should be and is smooth as a baby. So they would have to tune it OUT of what it should be to make it idle the way I wanted? Kinda like faking it? Even with the exhaust disconnected the idle sounded pretty smooth.
I would like to know from some of the Gurus here if that is normal or if having a very large streetport would always give you the loopy ( I dont know if thats the way to write it) idle I wanted?
Out of respect to the Shop that is doing the job I will not give names but I can tell you that is a very known and reputable RX7 shop.
Thank you very much for your insights...
Leo
Some background on the motor: The engine used to be stock internally but had the PFC computer, turbos were non sequential, had Apexi Power intake, greddy elbow, ACT SS clutch and 9 lbs. flywheel and a couple other things I dont remeber now. It was maybe between 280 and 300 whp at 12.5 psi.
Now, the car went a single turbo transformation like many others, very large streetport, GT35R turbo (new), A-spec kit exhaust manifolds and tial wastegate, 850 and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, koyo radiator, FDNewbie oil coolers, supra denso fuel pump, twin power ignition, zeitronix wideband and AFR, underdrive pulleys, A/C was removed and VERY IMPORTANT Aquamist HFS-5 Water/Meth injection that is pretty much the top of the line they have and is spraying 50/50.
After all this, the car is putting out barely 310 whp at almost 15 psi. And when the boost gets raised to 20 psi, the power barely touches 370 whp and the intake charge temp raises almost to 135 so its way too hot.
I know that the turbo is sized correctly, its a GT35R with a 1.00 a/r hot side and a .70 compressor. So it may be maxing out after 20 psi but not at 15. As for the intercooler, I know is not the biggest I can use but it should be more than ok for those power levels right?
The temperature before and after the intercooler seems to not change much, that could be some of the problems but I dont understand why would that be if it was working ok before with the stock one that is 4 times smaller. Also when the exhaust gets disconnected from the turbo, the engine picks up another 27 whp. So the exhaust is restricting too.
But the main problem I have is: Why is it (with all the restrictions from the intercooler and the exhaust) getting pretty much the same numbers as before the transformation while having now a large porting job, bigger intercooler, bigger turbo, etc.???
Another small question I have is: I specifically ask for a very large streetport to have an idle close to that of the half-bridge ones and they told me it was no problem that they would do it. But the car now revs smooth even at 900 rpm like if it had a very small porting job. They say it will come alive when the final tunes is made and they correct the AFR in idle. Right now the AFR is where it should be and is smooth as a baby. So they would have to tune it OUT of what it should be to make it idle the way I wanted? Kinda like faking it? Even with the exhaust disconnected the idle sounded pretty smooth.
I would like to know from some of the Gurus here if that is normal or if having a very large streetport would always give you the loopy ( I dont know if thats the way to write it) idle I wanted?
Out of respect to the Shop that is doing the job I will not give names but I can tell you that is a very known and reputable RX7 shop.
Thank you very much for your insights...
Leo
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 2
From: Renton/Bellevue/Seattle WA
Who tuned it? T3 or T4 gt35? There are VERY few (if any) people in the Seattle northwest area that know how to properly tune a high powered 7. If you just had a regular tuner tune it, that is your problem 100%. IF your turbo is T4 it is pretty close to my t04s. I did 312 rwhp on mine at 11 psi not even trying. :/
(Also yes the Aquamist is good and all, but if your tune is bad, you DEFINITELY wont be able to take advantage of it.)
Get a real rotary tuner to tune it and I bet you will see a whole new car.
Stay out of the floods.
~Tweak
(Also yes the Aquamist is good and all, but if your tune is bad, you DEFINITELY wont be able to take advantage of it.)
Get a real rotary tuner to tune it and I bet you will see a whole new car.
Stay out of the floods.
~Tweak
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,807
Likes: 648
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
some random thoughts:
sounds like a stock or mildly ported motor. that's not your problem however.
Long shot, but perhaps something is happening inside the rear diff? is it original and how many miles? many years ago an FD had mysterious problems with power production and a failing diff was the culprit.
interesting to hear about the increase in power after removing your (presumably) 3 inch downpipe. I've been running a 4 inch dp for about 2 years now.
sounds like a stock or mildly ported motor. that's not your problem however.
Long shot, but perhaps something is happening inside the rear diff? is it original and how many miles? many years ago an FD had mysterious problems with power production and a failing diff was the culprit.
interesting to hear about the increase in power after removing your (presumably) 3 inch downpipe. I've been running a 4 inch dp for about 2 years now.
Trending Topics
post up the maps.. INGL and INGT and base map... Not sure if I missed it above but who built the motor and does it have good compression? Was this on a mustang dyno or dyno dynamics? Did the tuner mention he was unhappy with the results?
The porting sounds mild, and there is a lot to be found in tuning. Be cautious with the methanol injection. A tuner advised caution about tuning the engine for maximum output depending on this system being functional. If the injector fails, pump fuse blows or you run out of methanol without knowing and stick you foot in it you'll detonate easily. It is a great system, but there is risk.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington
Yes he is a reputable tuner and is still trying to find the problem but is also trying to convince me that everything is fine and that the culprit must be the intercooler or the exhaust and I dont agree with that since the car before had the same exhaust and a smaller intercooler and still was making close to the same power. I am simply trying to find out if it could be those things bogging down the power so much or if something else is wrong?
And there is the other fact that the car idles like if it had a very mild porting job and it is suppose to be almost the largest possible streetport??
Answering some questions: The car has 3 inch exhaust, no cats, a magnaflow in the back and something like half a magnaflow in the middle that the previous owner did that sounds amazingly good.
Rear diff is stock so it may be giving problems. Now that you say that Goodfella, they say the transmission started making a noise in first and second gear mainly, something that was not happening before but seems to be because of the increased power? At least thats what they are telling me.
The motor was built by them its brand new rebuilt and has perfect compression. Dyno is a Dyno Dynamics. Yes the tuner is unhappy with the results. He knows it should be getting way higher numbers.
Yes the porting sounds like a mild one. As for the failsafes for the water meth injection, this system has many like the injector or line clogged failsafe, the low fluid failsafe, the low pump pressure failsafe. Yes its always risky to tune for max horsepower with the water/meth in it but if you keep it in check it should be ok.
I dont have a map or a dyno sheet yet since I live far from them and I will see them this following Monday.
I know that because of a bad tuning you could easily loose 40 whp but like I said this guys are supposed to know what they are doing and even if they missed something in the tuning, I am expecting a difference of maybe 20 or 30 whp or some and not 60 or 80 whp that seems to be the case here.
What I am most interested in is to find out if the intercooler and exhaust could be causing this now when they were fine before. It looks unlikely that at the same low boost levels ( 12 to 15 psi) just by changing the turbo and the porting will make the exhaust and a way bigger intercooler be restrictive.
And finally again the porting job seems to be mild. I was expecting a very agressive half-bridge like idle and is a smooth as it was before.
Thank you all for your help and keep your ideas coming please.
Leo
And there is the other fact that the car idles like if it had a very mild porting job and it is suppose to be almost the largest possible streetport??
Answering some questions: The car has 3 inch exhaust, no cats, a magnaflow in the back and something like half a magnaflow in the middle that the previous owner did that sounds amazingly good.
Rear diff is stock so it may be giving problems. Now that you say that Goodfella, they say the transmission started making a noise in first and second gear mainly, something that was not happening before but seems to be because of the increased power? At least thats what they are telling me.
The motor was built by them its brand new rebuilt and has perfect compression. Dyno is a Dyno Dynamics. Yes the tuner is unhappy with the results. He knows it should be getting way higher numbers.
Yes the porting sounds like a mild one. As for the failsafes for the water meth injection, this system has many like the injector or line clogged failsafe, the low fluid failsafe, the low pump pressure failsafe. Yes its always risky to tune for max horsepower with the water/meth in it but if you keep it in check it should be ok.
I dont have a map or a dyno sheet yet since I live far from them and I will see them this following Monday.
I know that because of a bad tuning you could easily loose 40 whp but like I said this guys are supposed to know what they are doing and even if they missed something in the tuning, I am expecting a difference of maybe 20 or 30 whp or some and not 60 or 80 whp that seems to be the case here.
What I am most interested in is to find out if the intercooler and exhaust could be causing this now when they were fine before. It looks unlikely that at the same low boost levels ( 12 to 15 psi) just by changing the turbo and the porting will make the exhaust and a way bigger intercooler be restrictive.
And finally again the porting job seems to be mild. I was expecting a very agressive half-bridge like idle and is a smooth as it was before.
Thank you all for your help and keep your ideas coming please.
Leo
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,807
Likes: 648
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
In my opinion your problem is not the intercooler or the exhaust, I can tell you that. Your tuner is blowing smoke up your *** if that's what he's telling you......
How does the car drive on the street? How does it boost, pull to redline etc?
How does the car drive on the street? How does it boost, pull to redline etc?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington
Yes thats what I think so too, I unfortunately dont know how the car drives yet yet since I am about to go see the car this Monday ( the shop is very far from me ) but they told me it runs very nice. I will find out about all that next Monday and I will be able to compare with what the car was before.
By the way something else, I have installed a supra denso pump in the car that as recommended by many around here including ErnieT was supposed to be enough for 500 whp but they are telling me that when they were pushing 20 psi the pump pressure was dropping almost around 15 to 20 psi. That I need a double pump setup??
And the last thing is that somehow the boost levels are always higher than what they should be with just the wastegate springs. So the springs were setup for around 17 psi and the car was getting a minimum of 20 psi. Then they removed the inner spring and the car should be getting only around 11 psi and is getting between 14 and 15 psi. All this of course with the boost controller off they say.
Everything is so strange. Hopefully when I get there I will be able to find out something more that can make sense.
Thanks for your help everyone.
Leo
By the way something else, I have installed a supra denso pump in the car that as recommended by many around here including ErnieT was supposed to be enough for 500 whp but they are telling me that when they were pushing 20 psi the pump pressure was dropping almost around 15 to 20 psi. That I need a double pump setup??
And the last thing is that somehow the boost levels are always higher than what they should be with just the wastegate springs. So the springs were setup for around 17 psi and the car was getting a minimum of 20 psi. Then they removed the inner spring and the car should be getting only around 11 psi and is getting between 14 and 15 psi. All this of course with the boost controller off they say.
Everything is so strange. Hopefully when I get there I will be able to find out something more that can make sense.
Thanks for your help everyone.
Leo
Just rewire the pump. that will increase its output and is easily done. Change the filter also if its old. You don't have any boost leaks do you? I would check the whole system with a pressure tester. If you have boost leaks at any of the pipes, bov, gaskets, etc.. it would make the turbo work harder throw its efficiency off and create more heat then power. irratic boost control would also occur just like your having. Other then that even with stock porting you should be making more power. And you have no cats that could be clogged. Sounds like your exhaust is a bit restrictive though to pick up that much power with it off. But i don't think that's the main issue. To make power you need to get as much air into and out of the engine. Obviously something is preventing air from getting in or out as efficiently as it should be.
Shot in the dark but is your throttle cable opening all the way on WOT? Also, try switching out your plugs... I've had a situation where I was losing MAJOR power because of a certain type of plug.
.
.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington
Well they had a boost leak before but they fixed it. Maybe they have another one they dont know about still. I will check into it. The fuel filter is 3 months old so it should be fine.
I will check on the plugs because thats something I didnt ask. I am guessing they are using the stock ones.
Thanks again for the help guys.
Leo
I will check on the plugs because thats something I didnt ask. I am guessing they are using the stock ones.
Thanks again for the help guys.
Leo
dyno dynamics is known to read a bit lower than other dynos too by the way. At our shop we show almost 15% lower than a dynojet with our dyno dynamics. That isn't your whole problem, but its also not as low as you think. My old car made 312whp on a similarly sized BW turbo at 10-11psi
Pressure Tester: (or just make your own) www.boostpro.net/prodtester.html . use a 4" --> 3" reducer coupler, and spray the engine bay with soapy water as you test.
Yes he is a reputable tuner and is still trying to find the problem but is also trying to convince me that everything is fine and that the culprit must be the intercooler or the exhaust and I dont agree with that since the car before had the same exhaust and a smaller intercooler and still was making close to the same power. I am simply trying to find out if it could be those things bogging down the power so much or if something else is wrong?
And there is the other fact that the car idles like if it had a very mild porting job and it is suppose to be almost the largest possible streetport??
Answering some questions: The car has 3 inch exhaust, no cats, a magnaflow in the back and something like half a magnaflow in the middle that the previous owner did that sounds amazingly good.
Rear diff is stock so it may be giving problems. Now that you say that Goodfella, they say the transmission started making a noise in first and second gear mainly, something that was not happening before but seems to be because of the increased power? At least thats what they are telling me.
The motor was built by them its brand new rebuilt and has perfect compression. Dyno is a Dyno Dynamics. Yes the tuner is unhappy with the results. He knows it should be getting way higher numbers.
Yes the porting sounds like a mild one. As for the failsafes for the water meth injection, this system has many like the injector or line clogged failsafe, the low fluid failsafe, the low pump pressure failsafe. Yes its always risky to tune for max horsepower with the water/meth in it but if you keep it in check it should be ok.
I dont have a map or a dyno sheet yet since I live far from them and I will see them this following Monday.
I know that because of a bad tuning you could easily loose 40 whp but like I said this guys are supposed to know what they are doing and even if they missed something in the tuning, I am expecting a difference of maybe 20 or 30 whp or some and not 60 or 80 whp that seems to be the case here.
What I am most interested in is to find out if the intercooler and exhaust could be causing this now when they were fine before. It looks unlikely that at the same low boost levels ( 12 to 15 psi) just by changing the turbo and the porting will make the exhaust and a way bigger intercooler be restrictive.
And finally again the porting job seems to be mild. I was expecting a very agressive half-bridge like idle and is a smooth as it was before.
Thank you all for your help and keep your ideas coming please.
Leo
And there is the other fact that the car idles like if it had a very mild porting job and it is suppose to be almost the largest possible streetport??
Answering some questions: The car has 3 inch exhaust, no cats, a magnaflow in the back and something like half a magnaflow in the middle that the previous owner did that sounds amazingly good.
Rear diff is stock so it may be giving problems. Now that you say that Goodfella, they say the transmission started making a noise in first and second gear mainly, something that was not happening before but seems to be because of the increased power? At least thats what they are telling me.
The motor was built by them its brand new rebuilt and has perfect compression. Dyno is a Dyno Dynamics. Yes the tuner is unhappy with the results. He knows it should be getting way higher numbers.
Yes the porting sounds like a mild one. As for the failsafes for the water meth injection, this system has many like the injector or line clogged failsafe, the low fluid failsafe, the low pump pressure failsafe. Yes its always risky to tune for max horsepower with the water/meth in it but if you keep it in check it should be ok.
I dont have a map or a dyno sheet yet since I live far from them and I will see them this following Monday.
I know that because of a bad tuning you could easily loose 40 whp but like I said this guys are supposed to know what they are doing and even if they missed something in the tuning, I am expecting a difference of maybe 20 or 30 whp or some and not 60 or 80 whp that seems to be the case here.
What I am most interested in is to find out if the intercooler and exhaust could be causing this now when they were fine before. It looks unlikely that at the same low boost levels ( 12 to 15 psi) just by changing the turbo and the porting will make the exhaust and a way bigger intercooler be restrictive.
And finally again the porting job seems to be mild. I was expecting a very agressive half-bridge like idle and is a smooth as it was before.
Thank you all for your help and keep your ideas coming please.
Leo
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,745
Likes: 0
From: North Bay, Ontario
You should maybe ask the tuner to tune the engine without the AI system first, and see what you get. At 15 or less PSI, it's not really necessary, and could be robbing power (similar to running race fuel without aggressive tuning/boost)
Secondly, if the Air temps are the same coming in and out of the intercooler (EXACTLY the same) when you are running your AI, try bypassing it altogether and see if it makes a noticeable difference. Could be some major restriction for whatever odd reason...
Secondly, if the Air temps are the same coming in and out of the intercooler (EXACTLY the same) when you are running your AI, try bypassing it altogether and see if it makes a noticeable difference. Could be some major restriction for whatever odd reason...
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington
Some weird thing that the previous owner did. They kinda created a small extra muffler with a magnaflow that they cut and re-welded. I dont know the specifics but should act almost like a normal magnaflow.
Leo
Leo
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington
Yes I thought of the same about the AI. It may be way out of where it is supposed to be and robbing power. After all the HFS-5 is a very complicated AI system with lots of connections, maybe they did something wrong there.
As for the intercooler, the temperature difference was as they said around 3 or 4 degrees celcius so maybe 7 fahrenheit. It maybe ok to bypass it but I told them that and they said they didnt want to because it was dangerous. I will tell them again since the temperature reading of before and after the intercooler I think happened after I told them to bypass it.
Leo
As for the intercooler, the temperature difference was as they said around 3 or 4 degrees celcius so maybe 7 fahrenheit. It maybe ok to bypass it but I told them that and they said they didnt want to because it was dangerous. I will tell them again since the temperature reading of before and after the intercooler I think happened after I told them to bypass it.
Leo
just for comparision I used to run a short runner A-spec 40r kit on a stock OEM (60k plus mile)motor. Car made 330 @ 12-13 psi (Steve Kahn) tuned. I further tuned it and it made 430 @19--20 psi years back.
Post up the tuners name!!!!!!
Post up the tuners name!!!!!!